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Old 03-11-2013, 01:36 PM   #176
53x12
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Originally Posted by Indocti Discant View Post
in which case you prob don't have the income to be shopping for a $20k+ car.
Which isn't correct in my situation.
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Old 03-11-2013, 01:43 PM   #177
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
I actually had seen that review, but I did not read it carefully since it seemed they were just quoting specs and said things like
Quote:
The circumstances of our test in the PHEV didn’t allow us to fully examine its electric range, or to get a feel for how European cars will ride and handle – our test car had the Japanese-spec chassis settings.
But now that I read it more carefully it does actually include a rated towing capacity which I had not noticed before.

1.6 tonnes is not bad.

I still very much wish they had the back row though. My wife wants our next car to seat 7 people so we can haul some extra folks if we need to. I read they removed it to make room for the electric motor etc.. in the back, but the images from that review don't make it clear that they needed to remove it.

http://images.cdn.autocar.co.uk/site...V_STU_038A.jpg
The caption for that image is "3rd row seats deleted for hybrid" not sure why though. Perhaps it is not the room that is missing, but anchor points that have been moved/removed.

I love the power outlet in the back too. It puts out 1500W
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:13 PM   #178
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Originally Posted by 53x12 View Post
Which isn't correct in my situation.
something something doenst jive.

If you aren't paying at least $7500 in fed taxes (and I mean tax over the course of a year and not when you file) then either your income is well under $80k (married), or you have a crap ton of deductions.
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Old 03-11-2013, 02:28 PM   #179
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If you aren't paying at least $7500 in fed taxes (and I mean tax over the course of a year and not when you file) then either your income is well under $80k (married), or you have a crap ton of deductions.

Bingo. You just answered your own question.

Still my point still stands, the $7500 federal and potential $7500 state (if your state offers any) sound nice in lowering the price of the EV, but if you can't take advantage of them it is a mute point.
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Old 03-11-2013, 03:09 PM   #180
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"Moot," but otherwise I agree, and that's why if I buy a RAV4 EV I'll be doing so in January 2014, not winter 2013. Especially with moving expenses deducted and the born-this-year kid's tax credit I'll be well under $7,500 in Federal tax liability for 2013.

Every year forth will be a different matter, assuming I get a job out of fellowship. I won't complain, though, since paying more taxes implies me making more.
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Old 03-11-2013, 08:50 PM   #181
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
"Moot," but otherwise I agree, and that's why if I buy a RAV4 EV I'll be doing so in January 2014, not winter 2013. Especially with moving expenses deducted and the born-this-year kid's tax credit I'll be well under $7,500 in Federal tax liability for 2013.

Every year forth will be a different matter, assuming I get a job out of fellowship. I won't complain, though, since paying more taxes implies me making more.
which puts me in a very odd place. Not sure if i should be happy about our refund this year.. or at another year gone by with $0 income attributed to me.
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Old 03-11-2013, 09:36 PM   #182
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I was annoyed when auto journalists started to cover this on their blogs and websites but wouldn't say anything about the drivetrain (whether it was AWD or FWD/RWD). ;D It turned out to be FWD unfortunately. But at least it's "fast" compared to the Nissan Leaf.

http://translogic.aolautos.com/2012/...ranslogic-119/

;D
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:51 PM   #183
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I haven't been following this thread closely... the RAV EV is 2WD only?
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Old 03-11-2013, 10:59 PM   #184
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I haven't been following this thread closely... the RAV EV is 2WD only?
Yes. FWD unless all of the information I've been reading since 2012 has been incorrect from Autoblog, CNET, and Toyota themselves. It wouldn't be able to achieve that MPGe with AWD even with Toyota's poorly executed AWD (4WD is what they call it) system that partially turns on in order to save gas.

FYI it's on their website anyways: http://www.toyota.com/rav4ev/feature...rformance/4480
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Old 03-12-2013, 01:39 AM   #185
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Thanks, A W.

I've always thought of 2WD SUVs & Crossovers as rather pointless.
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Old 03-12-2013, 02:35 AM   #186
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Thanks, A W.

I've always thought of 2WD SUVs & Crossovers as rather pointless.
Well some people like to drive SUV's and CUV's because of the raised seating position, safety in crashes compared to the "competition", and ability to transport people or items of a large size. FWD is just another way to get more MPG for people who care more about the dollar shock at the pump compared to the trauma shock of being stuck in the snow/mud. Yes, I agree; it's kind of odd to buy a SUV/CUV without AWD/4WD but gas prices seems to be on the mind of a lot of people. I only hope they use that saved money to buy winter tires so I don't have to deal with them on the roads when it's snowing.

Ironically they offer FWD (AWD optional) on the Acura RDX after the remodel which is an oxymoron. People who should be able to buy the remodeled RDX shouldn't be worried about MPG as much in order to downgrade to FWD. They're a luxury brand to begin with. It's like offering a luxury version of the Accord Crosstour and calling it the ZDX.

But in the end, it can't be more pointless than a Tesla S with RWD in the snow. At least with FWD you can make do in the snow. I honestly would never buy a RAV4 based solely on the fact that Toyota's AWD is worthless and they've ditched the V6 in the gas model. I've never been a fan of anything but boxer engines too.

Last edited by A W; 03-12-2013 at 04:10 AM.
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Old 03-12-2013, 03:43 AM   #187
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I think people buy 2WD SUVs/CUVs just to avoid the minivan stigma. Vans typically offer an even better ability to transport people and large items, and have a raised seating position.

You nailed it regarding Acura. If you're an automaker, that brings your luxury marquee downmarket, removing a bit of luster in the process.

(I like the Tesla for its looks, power and gee-whiz factor, but couldn't afford one. If I could, I could likely also afford a second vehicle for snow.)

I'm a bit excited about a hybrid Crosstrek because it may bring an affordable, efficient, capable CUV to market. In my neck of the woods I see Subarus and Prii (Priuses) comprising practically 50% of the vehicles parked at trailheads. Maybe with a hybrid Crosstrek there won't be so many Prii.
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Old 03-12-2013, 04:14 AM   #188
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Originally Posted by keepclam View Post
I think people buy 2WD SUVs/CUVs just to avoid the minivan stigma. Vans typically offer an even better ability to transport people and large items, and have a raised seating position.

You nailed it regarding Acura. If you're an automaker, that brings your luxury marquee downmarket, removing a bit of luster in the process.

(I like the Tesla for its looks, power and gee-whiz factor, but couldn't afford one. If I could, I could likely also afford a second vehicle for snow.)

I'm a bit excited about a hybrid Crosstrek because it may bring an affordable, efficient, capable CUV to market. In my neck of the woods I see Subarus and Prii (Priuses) comprising practically 50% of the vehicles parked at trailheads. Maybe with a hybrid Crosstrek there won't be so many Prii.
Well with a RAV4 EV at least it's not RWD =P. RWD would definitely hamper Toyota's ambition to eventually be able to sell this EV outside of the coast states let alone the sunshine state. I love how the Tesla X page (http://www.teslamotors.com/modelx) assumes women drivers with the words "minivan." Lol...the stereotypes.
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Old 03-12-2013, 05:42 AM   #189
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Yes. FWD unless all of the information I've been reading since 2012 has been incorrect from Autoblog, CNET, and Toyota themselves. It wouldn't be able to achieve that MPGe with AWD even with Toyota's poorly executed AWD (4WD is what they call it) system that partially turns on in order to save gas.

FYI it's on their website anyways: http://www.toyota.com/rav4ev/feature...rformance/4480
The previous gen Rav4 4WD is plenty capable for the intended purpose. My mom has a V6 and it gets out of their steep, rural, ice and snow covered WV driveway just as well as my brother's OBXT... which is all it needs to do. These aren't rock crawlers.

Last edited by quentinberg007; 03-12-2013 at 06:12 AM.
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:12 AM   #190
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The previous gen Rav4 4WD is plenty capable for the intended purpose. My mom has a V6 and it gets out of their steep, rural, ice and snow covered WV driveway just as well as my brother's OBXT... which is all it needs to do. These aren't rock crawlers.

Funny, my brother hates his OBXT because he can't break out of the teens in gas mileage now that he lives in the city. The Subaru full time 4WD is simply overkill with the side effect of bad mileage for a lot of people.
And? It doesn't change the fact that Toyota's AWD system has far more limits than the Subaru's system. All this changes is that those drivers don't need all that Subaru has to offer. Not like I care though either way if it is "capable for the intended purpose." It can't do what I need and it can't do what Subaru's system can, period.

As for MPG: yeah, if you bought an OBXT and wanted non-AWD MPG, you're going to be disappointed for being an idiot and expecting non-AWD MPG in an AWD turbocharged vehicle. I get 21 in the city in my '12 Subaru Forester XT and I have the 4 speed automatic. ;D

Last edited by A W; 03-12-2013 at 06:37 AM.
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Old 03-12-2013, 06:32 AM   #191
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Quote:
Originally Posted by keepclam View Post
I think people buy 2WD SUVs/CUVs just to avoid the minivan stigma. Vans typically offer an even better ability to transport people and large items, and have a raised seating position.

You nailed it regarding Acura. If you're an automaker, that brings your luxury marquee downmarket, removing a bit of luster in the process.

(I like the Tesla for its looks, power and gee-whiz factor, but couldn't afford one. If I could, I could likely also afford a second vehicle for snow.)

I'm a bit excited about a hybrid Crosstrek because it may bring an affordable, efficient, capable CUV to market. In my neck of the woods I see Subarus and Prii (Priuses) comprising practically 50% of the vehicles parked at trailheads. Maybe with a hybrid Crosstrek there won't be so many Prii.
I think overall you are correct. I actually had an old minivan when I was younger (no kids) and it wasn't bad. We camped and slept in the back etc... you could just throw bikes in since there was no seats, but the MPG sucked of course and there is no clearance still. There are many roads that you don't need AWD, but you do need some clearance to get through without destroying your vehicle or nerves. I guess a person could put skid plates under their minivan
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Old 03-12-2013, 08:30 AM   #192
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I think people buy 2WD SUVs/CUVs just to avoid the minivan stigma. Vans typically offer an even better ability to transport people and large items, and have a raised seating position.
With regard to my wife's enthusiasm for the RAV4 EV and the above, she'd be all over the Nissan NV200 EV (an electric mini-tall-van, if you will), provided several things happened:

1) It was produced. Still vaporware aside from car show demonstrations, afaik.
2) It came to our shores, which is far from assured. See Volvo V70 diesel PHEV as an example.
3) It had more range than the LEAF.

The RAV4 EV's big draws over a LEAF, in my assessment of it, are its extra cargo room aft of the second row (good for baby crap, as strollers and the like are huge); its extra range (about 50% more than the LEAF, so non-negligible); and its extra performance/Tesla-derived underbits.

If there existed a non-CUV-footprint EV/PHEV-40ish alternative that also possessed these above strengths it'd certainly be on our list as well.
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Old 03-12-2013, 09:47 AM   #193
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
With regard to my wife's enthusiasm for the RAV4 EV and the above, she'd be all over the Nissan NV200 EV (an electric mini-tall-van, if you will), provided several things happened:

1) It was produced. Still vaporware aside from car show demonstrations, afaik.
To be fair.. the RAV4 EV is vaporware on the East Coast.
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Old 03-12-2013, 12:31 PM   #194
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It's possible to ship it, if one is willing to risk the remote but non-negligible possibility of having to ship it back for a Tesla-components repair in the future. (No, Tesla's service centers will not work on it. People have asked. Makes sense, as Tesla has already been paid for the units.)

Although no one has 'fessed up to having one east of Colorado yet on the map, this post suggests that there's one in Pennsylvania!

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Old 03-13-2013, 12:22 PM   #195
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I can confirm there is one in KY and a couple in MI as well.
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Old 05-30-2013, 03:20 PM   #196
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Originally Posted by shikataganai View Post
It's possible to ship it, if one is willing to risk the remote but non-negligible possibility of having to ship it back for a Tesla-components repair in the future. (No, Tesla's service centers will not work on it. People have asked. Makes sense, as Tesla has already been paid for the units.)
The service-outside-California issue is starting to rear its ugly head, as at least 9 (of the 200? 300? odd on the road) RAV4 EVs have experienced the dreaded "Check EV System" error.

At least two out of state owners have experienced this "screen of death" at least intermittently so far.

The Screen of Death... Check EV System !!



Meanwhile, ~$10k-off-MSRP incentives (before the Federal and any applicable state incentives/tax credits are applied) are still in effect. It's a good deal… if it works.
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Old 05-30-2013, 03:23 PM   #197
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Kudos to you shik for playing a EV neutral position. You love to tout their glories, but to your credit, you are also quick to point out shortcomings!

class act man!
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Old 05-30-2013, 03:47 PM   #198
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Same with hybrids. I'm a nuanced fanboy, and call 'em as I see 'em.
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Old 02-04-2014, 11:01 AM   #199
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Another update on the Toyota RAV4 EV, unloved by the market to say the least:



Initially I was worried that it'd sell out too quickly and we wouldn't be able to get our hands on one due to that. That proved to be patently untrue, as witnessed by sales the last three months of 62, 28, and then 63 units (!). At that torrid pace they'll be selling them through 2016 given the total allocation of 2,600 units.

The price has come down to reflect the sorry take rate, but instead of the big $10k+ incentives for buying that were around as of my last posting in this thread, now the current deal strongly favors leasing. Buying currently nets one up to $7,500 off Federal taxes + a meager $2k off of MSRP + whatever else one can negotiate. Leasing nets one $14k in capitalized cost reduction, which makes for a $3500 down, $359/month x 24 months lease. This is actually pretty reasonable, albeit still about $150/month more than even my current top-of-the-line LEAF lease, and closer to $250/month more than a lease of a cheaper LEAF.

Finally, and most damningly, Toyota has not offered any support whatsoever for enterprising owners who wanted to drive an EV SUV outside of California. Indeed, they've been openly hostile, which is doubly unfortunate since reliability has proved to be horrid, as was starting to become apparent as of my last posting above.

In conclusion, I will not be driving a RAV4 EV anytime soon, unless I end up living in the same ZIP code as a RAV4 EV dealer (ie, in certain California markets), and I like their fleet of loaner cars.
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Old 02-04-2014, 11:04 AM   #200
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Serves Toyota right for thinking no AWD would cut it.
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