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Old 03-19-2013, 11:06 PM   #76
PA452
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Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
Wow.... 6 out of 7 posts. Is that ADHD or what?

If you are thinking of eventually saving money with the CVT, don't. It's looking more and more like the 5MT actually gets better mpg.

If somebody doesn't believe that and has a 5mt, talk to me about a swap...
Nope, I'm not really factoring in money on this transmission choice at this point. The deciding factor is really just maintenance, longevity, and maybe most importantly what do I really want to drive. I'm pretty much set on the MT.
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Old 03-20-2013, 02:17 AM   #77
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Nope, I'm not really factoring in money on this transmission choice at this point. The deciding factor is really just maintenance, longevity, and maybe most importantly what do I really want to drive. I'm pretty much set on the MT.
Ever heard of pep? The manual has it. A lot actually. The cvt...not so much.
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:03 PM   #78
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Ever heard of pep? The manual has it. A lot actually. The cvt...not so much.

Ever hear of paddles? I can be in the same gear ratio as you. Just as much pep. And when my car shifts from '1st' to '2nd' in paddle-mode, the throttle is WOT, and the momentum of the 6500 rpm engine goes to throwing the car forward. From a stop, my torque converter can MULTIPLY the engines torque for better accel. (Don't use the flawed 0-60 times C&D and others posted, they didn't do brake-stands for the CVTs, but did launch the MT cars).

On the superslab, when you're in 6th, how much pep ya got? NONE! All I have to do is floor it, and I'm at torque peak in a second, faster than you can downshift 3 gears.
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:16 PM   #79
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Originally Posted by subiTWO View Post

Ever hear of paddles? I can be in the same gear ratio as you. Just as much pep. And when my car shifts from '1st' to '2nd' in paddle-mode, the throttle is WOT, and the momentum of the 6500 rpm engine goes to throwing the car forward. From a stop, my torque converter can MULTIPLY the engines torque for better accel. (Don't use the flawed 0-60 times C&D and others posted, they didn't do brake-stands for the CVTs, but did launch the MT cars).

On the superslab, when you're in 6th, how much pep ya got? NONE! All I have to do is floor it, and I'm at torque peak in a second, faster than you can downshift 3 gears.
No thanks
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:24 PM   #80
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lol doesn't take that long to shift to 3rd, i'd still put my money on the manual over the cvt any day of the week.
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Old 03-20-2013, 09:41 PM   #81
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Originally Posted by subiTWO View Post
Ever hear of paddles? I can be in the same gear ratio as you. Just as much pep. And when my car shifts from '1st' to '2nd' in paddle-mode, the throttle is WOT, and the momentum of the 6500 rpm engine goes to throwing the car forward. From a stop, my torque converter can MULTIPLY the engines torque for better accel. (Don't use the flawed 0-60 times C&D and others posted, they didn't do brake-stands for the CVTs, but did launch the MT cars).

On the superslab, when you're in 6th, how much pep ya got? NONE! All I have to do is floor it, and I'm at torque peak in a second, faster than you can downshift 3 gears.
Faster, slower, who cares. MT is much more fun to drive you cant argue your way around that. The only thing CVT has on the MT is that you can text or eat while driving easier
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Old 03-20-2013, 10:51 PM   #82
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Faster, slower, who cares. MT is much more fun to drive you cant argue your way around that. The only thing CVT has on the MT is that you can text or eat while driving easier
Of course I can argue the paddles are more fun. I don't have to kick and flail my way around a corner. My hands are where they belong, and the engine is instantly in the gear I want. But I suppose you'd think driving an F1 car around would be boring, too?

BTW, I've shifted 14 cycles, and 6 different cars, and my lawn tractor has 8 forward and 4 reverse gears in it. Oh, and I drove a pop truck that had a 6-speed tranny with a 3-speed transaxle in it. That's 18 gears, and NO synchromesh. Every downshift required double-clutching.
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Old 03-20-2013, 11:43 PM   #83
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Originally Posted by subiTWO View Post
Ever hear of paddles? I can be in the same gear ratio as you. Just as much pep. And when my car shifts from '1st' to '2nd' in paddle-mode, the throttle is WOT, and the momentum of the 6500 rpm engine goes to throwing the car forward. From a stop, my torque converter can MULTIPLY the engines torque for better accel. (Don't use the flawed 0-60 times C&D and others posted, they didn't do brake-stands for the CVTs, but did launch the MT cars).

On the superslab, when you're in 6th, how much pep ya got? NONE! All I have to do is floor it, and I'm at torque peak in a second, faster than you can downshift 3 gears.
I've driven the CVT, there is massive amounts of shift lag when using the paddles. Your CVT can't be revved and then have the clutch engaged at a brisk pace to provide peppy acceleration, a manual can. I'm not saying there is anything wrong with it, it does it's job well, its efficient and provides good power to the wheels when it should, but the manual does provide a more responsive feel and is more fun to drive (unless you are not an auto enthusiast, or are a very unusual kind). It is also faster. It's not much faster, and off the track it doesn't matter, but that goes far enough to show that the feel of the manual is completely different from the CVT. Different gear ratios, faster changes and the use of a real clutch make the manual feel more responsive.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:35 AM   #84
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I've driven the CVT, there is massive amounts of shift lag when using the paddles.
VAG's CVTs and their DSG have a laggy feeling as well. I know DSG is supposed to be measured in ms and so is faster on an anticipated shift than a human can ever be, but I've driven two different brands of CVTs (total of a week) and two different DCTs (two years in a VW) and never could learn to enjoy it. I really wanted to.

When you clutch in and shift, you're always directly manipulating the car, so you can feel precisely when the car will engage and under what conditions.

When you pull a paddle, you're asking the computer to comply with your input and then you wait. As long as pulling on the paddle takes longer to activate the shift than the mechatronic unit or CVT can respond, it will feel like Playstation. And yes, driving an F1 car with eco-saver street tires at legal speeds would be kind of boring.

Last edited by NSU; 03-21-2013 at 12:40 AM.
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Old 03-21-2013, 07:44 AM   #85
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And yes, driving an F1 car with eco-saver street tires at legal speeds would be kind of boring.
Not to mention driving a 2 liter non-turbo boxer F1, no matter what tire you shoe it with.

Really, you cannot compare a CVT impreza (or even an Impreza with a 5 speed) to an F1 to try and win an internet debate, you lose.

CVT is an auto, even with paddle shifters.

Manuals are better if you want to provide driver input to the car, until you hit very high end cars, and your car is not one of those (though if you put a plastic hood scoop and STI wing on it, you can try to make it look like it is)

Last edited by Zeeper; 03-21-2013 at 08:38 AM.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:26 AM   #86
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Manuals are better if you want to provide driver input to the car, until you hit very high end cars, and your car is not one of those (though if you put a plastic hood scoop and STI wing on it, you can try to make it look like it is)
this
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:13 AM   #87
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Of course I can argue the paddles are more fun. I don't have to kick and flail my way around a corner. My hands are where they belong, and the engine is instantly in the gear I want. But I suppose you'd think driving an F1 car around would be boring, too?

BTW, I've shifted 14 cycles, and 6 different cars, and my lawn tractor has 8 forward and 4 reverse gears in it. Oh, and I drove a pop truck that had a 6-speed tranny with a 3-speed transaxle in it. That's 18 gears, and NO synchromesh. Every downshift required double-clutching.
I always have a hard time believing someone if they try to over convince you they know how to do something. Maybe you know how to drive a manual im guessing you dont. Comparing your impreza paddle shifter to F1 cars might be too much of an unrelastic stretch. I would like to invite you to the realm of reality.

You have an Automatic im sure you like it but its not a manual. This thread is about the impreza MT so anything you say isnt applicable.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:38 AM   #88
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I always have a hard time believing someone if they try to over convince you they know how to do something. Maybe you know how to drive a manual im guessing you dont.
I don't share your guess. I'm guessing that subiTWO does know how to shift, he's just not as enamored with the shifting process as some of us are.

I work with a guy who I know can shift a manual. His summer car is a Honda S2000 with a stick. He's a car enthusiast. Yet this is the guy who would prefer to drive a VW with a DSG tranny over a manual tranny. He just thinks the DSG shifts faster (he's right about that), and is equally engaging if you use the paddles.

He and I have agreed to disagree. He claims I can't possibly have a valid opinion since I've never actually driven a VW with the DSG tranny. I tell him that I don't need to drive a DSG to have my opinion, because no matter how effectively the DSG shifts, it doesn't have a clutch (at least not one that I can engage with my left foot), and it doesn't have a shift lever to move through the H pattern, and that's the process that I enjoy.

So we both think each other is crazy.

Regardless, he's an example of a car guy who knows how to shift a manual tranny, but has found a different technology that he prefers. I'm not changing my mind, but he has.
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Old 03-21-2013, 09:59 AM   #89
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I only have 30% or so of my left quadracep, and I really enjoy and greatly prefer a manual trans. But the older I get, the more uncomfortable driving becomes. So I can see why some people would want a cvt- its easier and more convenient.
At present, I try to view clutch engagement as physical therapy".
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:45 AM   #90
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He and I have agreed to disagree. He claims I can't possibly have a valid opinion since I've never actually driven a VW with the DSG tranny. I tell him that I don't need to drive a DSG to have my opinion, because no matter how effectively the DSG shifts, it doesn't have a clutch (at least not one that I can engage with my left foot), and it doesn't have a shift lever to move through the H pattern, and that's the process that I enjoy.
I owned a Mk5 R32 for two years and I really wanted to love the DSG. I thought it was the solution to the impasse between automatic convenience and manual performance and that future enthusiasts would have to live with the closest approximation of a stick shift. I was wrong, and I was wrong against my own interests.

Now, I don't want to come off implying that MTs are better in some general way. It's just a different utensil. Sometimes you want a fork when a spoon will do.
If I had to drive daily down the Schuylkill, or the 405, or around 495 during rush hour I'd be miserable with a clutch. Any auto would be preferable.
If I tracked my car I'd want a DCT. It was undoubtedly faster and allowed me to focus much more on driving the car at the limit. But I don't. So manual it is.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:00 PM   #91
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I've driven the CVT, there is massive amounts of shift lag when using the paddles. Your CVT can't be revved and then have the clutch engaged at a brisk pace to provide peppy acceleration, a manual can. .

There is NO lag when using the paddles. The ratio starts changing immediately. Of course, it will take a split second to get all the way to the new ratio, but not more than a tenth or two of a second, for a large gap like 1st to 2nd.

And I covered launches before. They're called brake-stands.
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:33 PM   #92
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There is NO lag when using the paddles. The ratio starts changing immediately. Of course, it will take a split second to get all the way to the new ratio, but not more than a tenth or two of a second, for a large gap like 1st to 2nd.

And I covered launches before. They're called brake-stands.
The cvt I test drove had some lag when in manual mode, but it was better than the horrible auto mode. I could never drive that car in auto mode and if I'm going to be pretending I'm shifting, I might as well be doing it for real.

From your other post I would assume you are a pro truck driver and if that was my profession I wouldn't want to drive a stick add my personal car
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Old 03-21-2013, 12:39 PM   #93
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There is NO lag when using the paddles. The ratio starts changing immediately. Of course, it will take a split second to get all the way to the new ratio, but not more than a tenth or two of a second, for a large gap like 1st to 2nd.

And I covered launches before. They're called brake-stands.
It's called torquing the drive train. It's not a good thing to do regularly as I'm sure you know. The ratio changing is noticeable, and extremely annoying as it's slower than a good manual shift if the driver knows what they are doing. As I said, the CVT does it's job and it does it well, but if a responsive and enjoyable driving experience is what you are after, then that's not its place. In theory a CVT should be able to accelerate faster and better than a manual, and the Forester XT is a good example of this, where it's actually tuned to do so. In reality though, there is just less you are controlling on the car, you are simply sending commands to a computer, and that is just not as fun, nor as fast (unless your car cost over 70k).
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Old 03-21-2013, 04:45 PM   #94
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I don't share your guess. I'm guessing that subiTWO does know how to shift, he's just not as enamored with the shifting process as some of us are.

.

SG you are a breath of fresh air in the sea of stupidity that is NASIOC.

But I don't question others choice of MT for -enjoyment-. I refute their nonsense that the Imps' MT is significantly (if at all) better for performance.

Trying to educate some of these fools is like trying to educate a born-again in evolutionary theory...

Hopefully, the 'dear readers' out there will think things thru before making an uneducated purchase decision.
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:02 PM   #95
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MT is definitely more fun. But sometimes its just plain convenient and comfortable to get into the CVT imp and just drive. If your just putting around on errands I typically don't get the chance to enjoy my 10 mph parking lot crawl with a stick.

Oh, and theoretically, if programmed for performance instead of economy, cvt tech would be ideal.
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Old 03-21-2013, 05:58 PM   #96
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MT is definitely more fun. But sometimes its just plain convenient and comfortable to get into the CVT imp and just drive. If your just putting around on errands I typically don't get the chance to enjoy my 10 mph parking lot crawl with a stick.

Oh, and theoretically, if programmed for performance instead of economy, cvt tech would be ideal.
Since I'm not getting a big economy boost compared to the manual, I'd happily re-program for performance. Any change Subaru will make that possible?
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Old 03-21-2013, 06:47 PM   #97
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If your CVT can hold the horsepower peak, it's already accelerating as hard as it can. There's no re-flash that is going to reduce internal losses.
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Old 03-21-2013, 08:53 PM   #98
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If your CVT can hold the horsepower peak, it's already accelerating as hard as it can. There's no re-flash that is going to reduce internal losses.
Yes but the curve at which this is approached can be tuned for faster performance. I understand that the CVT isn't slow, and when I drive one I prefer the automatic mode actually. There is just something...vague...about it. Like you know it's doing its job and it's not slow...but it feels like it is. It's weird to me at least.
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Old 03-21-2013, 10:24 PM   #99
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I'm not sure I understand. The speed at which it can first reach the HP peak is determined by the shortest ratio. That can't be re-flashed either.
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Old 03-21-2013, 11:50 PM   #100
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I'm not sure I understand. The speed at which it can first reach the HP peak is determined by the shortest ratio. That can't be re-flashed either.
The Engine tuning can be changed to create more performance at the cost of e.g. economy - just like in the "olden days" with 3/4 race or full race cams.
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