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Old 03-23-2013, 12:42 PM   #1576
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I really think the Golf R should be the standard for fit, finish and quality for Subaru to march toward. They have the performance part down. They have the reliability down. They just need to up their game in the refinement category.

I think the pricing will stay the same, but you can simply forget ever seeing a 2 or 3 door only WRX and STI. People want the practicality and do anything nature of these 4 and 5 door bodies. It is a livable performance car, that makes sense to many demographics. Making it only a 2 or 3 door is just marketing stupidity for Subaru. If you have some psychological need for a 2 door and for some reason you hate 4 doors I cannot help you.
I have always had a stigma against Volkswagen, the people who drive them around here kinda gave the whole brand a bad name, but I just looked at the Golf R online, and it has everything I want in a car, well except that it's not a sedan.

I may have to go test drive one.
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Old 03-23-2013, 01:16 PM   #1577
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This is the case with me. I don't need AWD or an all out performance car. Besides, the class of car is already being dominated by cars that cost 3 to 4 times more than even the STI; Subaru can't compete with that, therefore they need to focus on competition in this current class.
so if you dont need awd or a performance car, what are you seriously expecting from the next wrx? and/or if its characteristics arent what you need, you're obviously not buying one and arent the target demographic.
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Old 03-23-2013, 02:30 PM   #1578
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The extra weight of rear doors in negligible, and might even contribute to better weight distribution. The convenience and safety is certainly outweighs the small weight penalty. I can't help but wonder if many of those that so want a car sans rear doors, do so because they've been brain washed by Madison Avenue into associating 2 doors with "sporty". Mind you I have no problem with 2 seaters having 2 doors. In the past I thought that BMW made strides demonstrating that 4 doors can be sporty without compromise. Unfortunately they seemed to have lost a bit of direction. A WRX without rear doors completely eliminates it as a consideration for me.
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Old 03-23-2013, 02:33 PM   #1579
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Originally Posted by EvilCamaroSS View Post
I have always had a stigma against Volkswagen, the people who drive them around here kinda gave the whole brand a bad name, but I just looked at the Golf R online, and it has everything I want in a car, well except that it's not a sedan.

I may have to go test drive one.
The first brand new car I bought was the first generation US GTI. Loved it, except or the fact that it was so unreliable. I prefer the AWD, engine layout and reliability of Subaru, and am willing to give up a bit of luxury for it. I must admit, I am smitten by Audi's styling, but rather not pay the price premium for it.
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Old 03-23-2013, 02:44 PM   #1580
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No, H2BS would've filled in all those blank lines with dense typeage.
i typed it up on here then copied it to a word document then repasted once I edited it only for the darn thing to come out double spaced like a damn paper with tiny paragraphs.

Sigh lol.

But I am glad most people get my point and agree to an extent. Also like many will say again and again "AWD is not the end all be all", there are too many examples of RWD cars out there that outperform AWD cars at similar power levels and price range. Acting as if AWD is everything or should be the part of the total package in any car is ludicrous at best.
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Old 03-23-2013, 02:55 PM   #1581
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is anyone here really arguing awd over rwd from a performance standpoint rather than its advantages in various climates?
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Old 03-23-2013, 02:56 PM   #1582
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Doesn't matter if it is or isn't, I think that he's right. Of course some will disagree, and want a car that remains cheap in cost and goes about this by cutting cost in every which way. I liked my 06 STI but not enough for me to be blinded to you obvious; Subaru needs to do better.
Thanks. Not Hip by the way, as similar as my views may be to his in terms of what the WRX/STI should be like. he tends to put those views on everything subaru produces vs just a select model.

Example: he talks crap about the BRZ pretty often where I in fact can enjoy it for what it is because I started out with light weight low power rwd cars (2 late 80s MR2s) after I got my license and love them. To me the experience of that type of car cant be compared to, its just a complete joy to drive a relatively slow car fast.
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Old 03-23-2013, 02:59 PM   #1583
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is anyone here really arguing awd over rwd from a performance standpoint rather than its advantages in various climates?
its the claim that AWD has to be part of the total package when talking bang for the buck. I just poked a flaw in that being a necessity if you consider what you would use the car for.

If you live anywhere that has moderate incliment weather than sure I can see your point but over half the country does not have it so the whole needing AWD bit is merely a driver preference based on location.
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Old 03-23-2013, 03:17 PM   #1584
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I really think the Golf R should be the standard for fit, finish and quality for Subaru to march toward. They have the performance part down. They have the reliability down. They just need to up their game in the refinement category.

I think the pricing will stay the same, but you can simply forget ever seeing a 2 or 3 door only WRX and STI. People want the practicality and do anything nature of these 4 and 5 door bodies. It is a livable performance car, that makes sense to many demographics. Making it only a 2 or 3 door is just marketing stupidity for Subaru. If you have some psychological need for a 2 door and for some reason you hate 4 doors I cannot help you.
That is what the rest of the subaru range is for. You want some performance and plenty of utility then go buy a Legacy, outback or any other subaru out there that provides a similar experience. At this point the only reason you are arguing for it is the image of the model you so happen to like vs what you said your needs/wants are in a car. You want practicality and performance then buy something else, luckily subaru makes that alternative already so their sales arent going to suffer and correct my if I am wrong but next to the BRZ the WRX/STI are at the bottom of the sales chart not counting the tribeca. so losing a few sales only to have them go to another model means nothing to them.

Subaru already makes 3 vehicles that fill your needs and the needs of others for relatively the same price ranges if you are not interested in a SUV. Better they tailor a dedicated platform properly for their plans in racing than half assing a design that is suppose to be competitive in WRC by adding utility, weight and size to it. Remember, subaru wants to get back into WRC and they believe it is the next big thing in motorsports. They would be stupid to design a car that fails miserably when it debues in races.

All of the "I want a high performance 4/5 door WRX STI" guys fail to realize that in order for the car to be successful in the type of motorsport subaru gives a crap about they have to sacrifice certain things to be able to compete. That includes space, size and utility. You don't win world rally races catering to the family sedan market anymore. They know this. Sadly you don't.
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Old 03-23-2013, 03:18 PM   #1585
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its the claim that AWD has to be part of the total package when talking bang for the buck. I just poked a flaw in that being a necessity if you consider what you would use the car for.

If you live anywhere that has moderate incliment weather than sure I can see your point but over half the country does not have it so the whole needing AWD bit is merely a driver preference based on location.

Then you need to take "bang for your buck" out of your vocabulary. If a Mustang did all the things it does now AND had AWD, then I would consider it. I lost count of how many Mustangs, Camaros, Vettes, and 1 Viper I launched on at a light in ANYTHING other than dry pavement. The most fun of that(before you chastise me for street racing) is that they gave up before I finished second gear. And I suck. It rains everywhere. My point is, I doubt those owners look forward to or even enjoy getting their car out in inclement weather. I do. Shoot. I go looking for crap weather.

Without having won the lottery, I will not own a vehicle without capable AWD. Period. No one has given me a good enough choice to leave Subaru for. I am in full belief the new WRX/STI will only solidify that(if that's even possible). Subaru has the best "bang for your buck".
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Old 03-23-2013, 04:06 PM   #1586
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Just want to point out that I hope they would return to WRC. In contrairy to the succes in US and Canada the sales over here are going to zero. In some regions I fear they have to leave. In Holland last month they sold....79 units. Most of them to the garages themselves. Co emissions over 140gr/km makes them unsellable. See some of you asking for flat sixes but that is out of the question. For the diesel version they will have to meet Euro 6 within a few months.
WRC could revive all this because it's mostly Euro oriented.
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Old 03-23-2013, 04:23 PM   #1587
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@JustyWRC
Hence my point on preference. You obviously stated yours and helped make my point.

The street has never been a legitimate place to test performance, especially stop light hero antics. But you can take your car to a track and watch plenty of the RWD cars with decent drivers blow by you and keep running while you struggle to keep up. There may even be a few FWD cars that give you a sad face. This is talking stock for stock. don't even bother getting into a modified car arguement.

It's is pretty sad when a base model V6 mustang with a factory track package slapped on can dust the STI around VIR for example. Not saying I would prefer the mustang; but at that point how do you argue bang for you buck when you lose a legit race on a real track?

If drag racing is your thing then yes the better bang for the buck award goes to the Subaru.

When comparing cars as daily drivers the subaru wins again on many fronts.

But going back to any form of road course racing the WRX and STI fall flat compared to cheaper and similarly priced cars.

I also seem to remember when the turbo cobalt SS came out it also put down faster times than the STI. Does that make AWD inferior to FWD? NO. But it further proves in the track performance world the STI is a slouch for how much it costs and AWD is not necessary.

Even in rally the FWD cars are dominating.

So Subaru wins 2/4 of the examples I gave. I could add a fifth like going on trails/off road but you are still not 5/5. In the end it is doesn't have everything even with the AWD.

Subaru may be perfect for you in your definition of bang for the buck but in the broader aspect it is not. There will always be better cars for everything else with exceptions that are available at a similar or cheaper price until they get their heads out of their asses.
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Old 03-23-2013, 06:36 PM   #1588
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Originally Posted by Lrn2Corner View Post
That is what the rest of the subaru range is for. You want some performance and plenty of utility then go buy a Legacy, outback or any other subaru out there that provides a similar experience. At this point the only reason you are arguing for it is the image of the model you so happen to like vs what you said your needs/wants are in a car. You want practicality and performance then buy something else, luckily subaru makes that alternative already so their sales arent going to suffer and correct my if I am wrong but next to the BRZ the WRX/STI are at the bottom of the sales chart not counting the tribeca. so losing a few sales only to have them go to another model means nothing to them.

Subaru already makes 3 vehicles that fill your needs and the needs of others for relatively the same price ranges if you are not interested in a SUV. Better they tailor a dedicated platform properly for their plans in racing than half assing a design that is suppose to be competitive in WRC by adding utility, weight and size to it. Remember, subaru wants to get back into WRC and they believe it is the next big thing in motorsports. They would be stupid to design a car that fails miserably when it debues in races.

All of the "I want a high performance 4/5 door WRX STI" guys fail to realize that in order for the car to be successful in the type of motorsport subaru gives a crap about they have to sacrifice certain things to be able to compete. That includes space, size and utility. You don't win world rally races catering to the family sedan market anymore. They know this. Sadly you don't.
And sadly you fail to realize that subaru does not give a rats butt about competing in motorsports. They want sales, and they have been setting record sales year after year, month after month with these 4/5 door cars. They are a car business. They are not here to satisfy the wants and needs of the few people who would prefer a 2/3 door over a 4/5 door. Why should they worry about that fraction of a percent when they can capture 20% more if they retain the 4/5 door.

A 5 door hatch would do well in WRC. They have in the past, and I see them doing well again. But the trend is for Fiesta sized cars. I do not see Subaru going that way.

WE are all in the dark, to what Subaru will bring us, but the 4/5 door formula that has set record sales is likely to continue.
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Old 03-23-2013, 07:43 PM   #1589
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And sadly you fail to realize that subaru does not give a rats butt about competing in motorsports. They want sales, and they have been setting record sales year after year, month after month with these 4/5 door cars. They are a car business. They are not here to satisfy the wants and needs of the few people who would prefer a 2/3 door over a 4/5 door. Why should they worry about that fraction of a percent when they can capture 20% more if they retain the 4/5 door.

A 5 door hatch would do well in WRC. They have in the past, and I see them doing well again. But the trend is for Fiesta sized cars. I do not see Subaru going that way.

WE are all in the dark, to what Subaru will bring us, but the 4/5 door formula that has set record sales is likely to continue.
But I thought the most recent quote was that Subaru was building the new WRX/STI to win motorsports events. I don't see a 5 door the size of the current Impreza being competitive in WRC, Global Rallycross or Road Racing. If it is a Fiesta size 5 door, maybe.

They will continue to have 5 door vehicles in the Impreza, Legacy, XV, and Forester. A few even have turbos.
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Old 03-23-2013, 08:32 PM   #1590
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So someone must be having a pretty good laugh about Car & Driver using their photoshop huh?

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Old 03-23-2013, 08:46 PM   #1591
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Pretty weak
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Old 03-23-2013, 09:34 PM   #1592
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But I thought the most recent quote was that Subaru was building the new WRX/STI to win motorsports events. I don't see a 5 door the size of the current Impreza being competitive in WRC, Global Rallycross or Road Racing. If it is a Fiesta size 5 door, maybe.

They will continue to have 5 door vehicles in the Impreza, Legacy, XV, and Forester. A few even have turbos.
Perhaps you are right, but all the people I have talked to say to expect the impreza to be similar in shape and size to the outgoing models.

We will see soon enough. Arguing over what they should build is fun, but in the end, pointless.

I gave the STI a chance to win my business many times, but in the end, its tech package, ride quality, and price kept me out of it and into a Golf R. Subaru needs to improve. They do not need to a monumental amount of change, but they are behind every other car in the class
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:02 PM   #1593
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But I thought the most recent quote was that Subaru was building the new WRX/STI to win motorsports events. I don't see a 5 door the size of the current Impreza being competitive in WRC, Global Rallycross or Road Racing. If it is a Fiesta size 5 door, maybe.

They will continue to have 5 door vehicles in the Impreza, Legacy, XV, and Forester. A few even have turbos.
When did Subaru officially announce they were returning to the WRC? Are you referring to some "insider" who told the very unreliable MotorTrend that the new WRX was being development with motorsport in mind? Wasn't that like 2 years ago? Also, that wasn't an official statement from Subaru.

People who want a 2/3 door WRX say it will be more competitive in WRC. But who cares about the WRC? Subaru doesn't. Certainly Mini and Ford didn't when they withdrew "manufacturer" support this year. While Subie may offer a 3 door variant, they will still offer a 4 or 5 door. Ofcourse they could do what A2P2 and Lrnd2Corner want and go 3 door only, but sales will tank. If you want a tiny sport car, buy a 370Z, Mustang, Genesis Coupe, or BRZ. If the BRZ is too slow for you, wait for the STI version. If you specifically want an AWD 2/3 door, then no carmaker caters to your need because there is no market for such a car. If there was, someone would have released one by now.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:42 PM   #1594
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@JustyWRC
Hence my point on preference. You obviously stated yours and helped make my point.

The street has never been a legitimate place to test performance, especially stop light hero antics. But you can take your car to a track and watch plenty of the RWD cars with decent drivers blow by you and keep running while you struggle to keep up. There may even be a few FWD cars that give you a sad face. This is talking stock for stock. don't even bother getting into a modified car arguement.

It's is pretty sad when a base model V6 mustang with a factory track package slapped on can dust the STI around VIR for example. Not saying I would prefer the mustang; but at that point how do you argue bang for you buck when you lose a legit race on a real track?

If drag racing is your thing then yes the better bang for the buck award goes to the Subaru.

When comparing cars as daily drivers the subaru wins again on many fronts.

But going back to any form of road course racing the WRX and STI fall flat compared to cheaper and similarly priced cars.

I also seem to remember when the turbo cobalt SS came out it also put down faster times than the STI. Does that make AWD inferior to FWD? NO. But it further proves in the track performance world the STI is a slouch for how much it costs and AWD is not necessary.

Even in rally the FWD cars are dominating.

So Subaru wins 2/4 of the examples I gave. I could add a fifth like going on trails/off road but you are still not 5/5. In the end it is doesn't have everything even with the AWD.

Subaru may be perfect for you in your definition of bang for the buck but in the broader aspect it is not. There will always be better cars for everything else with exceptions that are available at a similar or cheaper price until they get their heads out of their asses.
Bang for your buck=EVERYTHING.

You keep pulling out individual things that beat the Subaru. That is not bang for your buck. That is...when I want to go to the track, I take my mustang. When I want to go get groceries in 2 foot of snow, I take my STI. If I want to feel good about my interior when I am driving around, I'll take my GTI. NO ONE else gives you ALL the things Subaru does in ONE package.....

Will you "settle" for 2WD? Have 2 doors so it is harder to put in a child seat? Have a "nicer" interior? Whatever.

Quote:
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When did Subaru officially announce they were returning to the WRC? Are you referring to some "insider" who told the very unreliable MotorTrend that the new WRX was being development with motorsport in mind? Wasn't that like 2 years ago? Also, that wasn't an official statement from Subaru.
***********
It officially came out of a FHI execs mouth "to win in motorsports". He didn't specify WRC though and it wasn't quite 2 years ago.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:48 PM   #1595
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There is a difference between coincidence and causation. Just because others have recently been winning with smaller cars, doesn't necessarily mean Subaru can't win with a slightly larger car, or one with the appropriate number of doors for all of it's potential occupants.
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Old 03-23-2013, 10:58 PM   #1596
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So someone must be having a pretty good laugh about Car & Driver using their photoshop huh?

Morons will print anything if it sells. Then there are the morons who believe them.

As for going with a smaller car in order to win races, you're damn right it will. A smaller car is the easiest way to make a lighter car, a lighter car means making use of engine output better, fighting off the laws of physics better and later braking - not to mention better fuel mileage and wear and tear due to the car having to haul less weight. Look to the monsters of group B.

I have a strong feeling the next WRX is going to be a small 2 or 3 door. It only makes sense. as for people complaining about practicality with a 4 or 5 door, you people always have the impreza, you just wont get the extra umph of a turbo.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:16 PM   #1597
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
Perhaps you are right, but all the people I have talked to say to expect the impreza to be similar in shape and size to the outgoing models.

We will see soon enough. Arguing over what they should build is fun, but in the end, pointless.

I gave the STI a chance to win my business many times, but in the end, its tech package, ride quality, and price kept me out of it and into a Golf R. Subaru needs to improve. They do not need to a monumental amount of change, but they are behind every other car in the class
Just test drove a Golf R and it was great. I was extremely impressed with its ride quality and refinement. Since I don't live at the track, I think that this may be the next car for me. Still have to take a drive in the Focus ST too....
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:22 PM   #1598
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And sadly you fail to realize that subaru does not give a rats butt about competing in motorsports. They want sales, and they have been setting record sales year after year, month after month with these 4/5 door cars. They are a car business. They are not here to satisfy the wants and needs of the few people who would prefer a 2/3 door over a 4/5 door. Why should they worry about that fraction of a percent when they can capture 20% more if they retain the 4/5 door.

A 5 door hatch would do well in WRC. They have in the past, and I see them doing well again. But the trend is for Fiesta sized cars. I do not see Subaru going that way.

WE are all in the dark, to what Subaru will bring us, but the 4/5 door formula that has set record sales is likely to continue.
This. Grand touring.. performance and utility, that's the WRX's job, always has been. That's what people will buy. Deal with it.
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Old 03-23-2013, 11:48 PM   #1599
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As for going with a smaller car in order to win races, you're damn right it will. A smaller car is the easiest way to make a lighter car, a lighter car means making use of engine output better, fighting off the laws of physics better and later braking - not to mention better fuel mileage and wear and tear due to the car having to haul less weight. Look to the monsters of group B.

I have a strong feeling the next WRX is going to be a small 2 or 3 door. It only makes sense. as for people complaining about practicality with a 4 or 5 door, you people always have the impreza, you just wont get the extra umph of a turbo.
So subaru should ditch their successful 4/5 door formula just so they can go rallying in the wrc? They will lose sales for sure so will it be worth it? This may be their "gtr" moment but subie are normally conservative. I dont mind if its a 3 door rocket, but many fans will be alienated.
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Old 03-24-2013, 01:23 AM   #1600
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The car needs to be smaller. It is the size of the old Legacy. This is not a family sedan competing the with the old Camry. The GC and GD cars had shorter wheelbase and the car needs to go back in that direction. The BRZ is there, we need the WRX to share the platform (shortened Impreza chassis).

We are not competitive against the fiesta in GRC due to the larger size and weight. If they move to RallyAmerica we could have a big problem.
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