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Old 04-02-2013, 02:08 PM   #701
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Have you built a time machine? Page 25? I'm only on page 14.

TEACH ME YOUR WAYS, FUTURE MAN!
Hmm, just realized your probably not using the default forum post count per page. Which means I've replied twice to a useless post...
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:11 PM   #702
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I brainstormed some a while back but never actually tested it. The thing is, it depends on what kind of spring you have in the EWG. The problem I had was the spring was so weak, it would blow open even without anything connected to the EWG ports. I wouldn't be able to run more than 16psi on a 2.5L.

I was going to buy a second MBC and have it only control pressure to the top port while keeping the rest of the hybrid boost control system in place as is. But then I inadvertently installed an inspection window on top of the block and got more busy with life etc.

Try this, install a secondary MBC as a 'tee' in the line going from compressor to top port. Tune the MBC to regulate pressure in the top port. Send the other end of this MBC back to the intake or atmosphere. Then connect the EBCS and MBC as stated in this thread to the side port.

Last edited by MRF582; 04-02-2013 at 02:17 PM.
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:13 PM   #703
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question is, what is the goal?
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:15 PM   #704
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question is, what is the goal?
I want it all, boost from ~6 psi to 24 psi! Plus adjustability!
Mainly i'm anal and I want to tune my tables from low boost to high...
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Old 04-02-2013, 02:16 PM   #705
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I brainstormed some a while back but never actually tested it. The thing is, it depends on what kind of spring you have in the EWG. The problem I had was the spring was so weak, it would blow open even without anything connected to the EWG ports. I wouldn't be able to run more than 16psi on a 2.5L.

I was going to buy a second MBC and have it only control pressure to the top port while keeping the rest of the hybrid boost control system in place as is. But then I inadvertently installed an inspection window on top of the block and got more busy with life etc.
What did you come up with, i'll give it a go...
spring is currently ~6psi
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Old 04-03-2013, 04:13 PM   #706
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Got it figured out, thanks.
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Old 04-29-2013, 12:39 PM   #707
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Would it be possible to do this hybrid set up with a grimmspeed 3 port and a greddy profec b type s mbc. I have my car tuned for the 3 port now and am planing on doing a ewg for my next tune. My car had the profec b type s mbc in it while ago and is now just sitting in my car not functioning just needs the boost lines ran. So I was just curious if this combo would work so the mbc isn't just sitting in my car to look cool.
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Old 04-29-2013, 02:14 PM   #708
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Would it be possible to do this hybrid set up with a grimmspeed 3 port and a greddy profec b type s mbc. I have my car tuned for the 3 port now and am planing on doing a ewg for my next tune. My car had the profec b type s mbc in it while ago and is now just sitting in my car not functioning just needs the boost lines ran. So I was just curious if this combo would work so the mbc isn't just sitting in my car to look cool.
I'm sure there's a way but there's almost literally no point to doing that. I'd just setup the Profec system and be done with it. This whole hybrid boost control setup topic is an attempt to mimic the results typical of a standalone boost control system like yours by hacking and tricking the inferior stock Subaru controls.

The original poster installed a cockpit adjustable Manual boost controller so he was able to set the max boost level from inside the car, then through all the stuff on the ECU and with the 3-port system he was able to control all of the partial throttle boost levels.

The 3 knobs on your Profec allow you to do essentially the same thing even if you're not able to set specific limits per throttle input and RPM. If you read through most of these posts, 80% of the guys using hybrid aren't worried about specific partial throttle boost limits anyway and just look for a linear taper of boost at any given throttle input with a max boost level for WOT. The Profec can certainly do that for you and then some, it's just a slightly different way of achieving the same result. It's only because a full standalone is a tad expensive and not integral to the OEM setup that this whole topic exists.
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Old 04-29-2013, 06:32 PM   #709
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Would it be possible to do this hybrid set up with a grimmspeed 3 port and a greddy profec b type s mbc. I have my car tuned for the 3 port now and am planing on doing a ewg for my next tune. My car had the profec b type s mbc in it while ago and is now just sitting in my car not functioning just needs the boost lines ran. So I was just curious if this combo would work so the mbc isn't just sitting in my car to look cool.
which turbo are you going to run with your ewg? does it still have an iwg? if so, consider running the iwg off the solenoid and the ewg off the mbc. the mbc/ewg would only open up at max boost and full throttle.
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Old 04-29-2013, 11:19 PM   #710
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which turbo are you going to run with your ewg? does it still have an iwg? if so, consider running the iwg off the solenoid and the ewg off the mbc. the mbc/ewg would only open up at max boost and full throttle.
It will just be on my stock vf39. I'm just looking to get away from overboosting I had it protuned with the 3 port and have had a few versions of my maps to help with the issue and so far nothing has worked so my next step is ewg. The iwg will be closed with the cobb adjustable Watergate arm. I'll look into that tho I just want the most efficient way to control my boost. I had the mbc hooked up when I first bought my car and it was a big pain so I just opted for another protune with the 3port. I just saw this and thought I might be able to utilize my mbc for better boost control but sounds like just running a 3 port with my ewg will be my best bet.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:07 AM   #711
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the key advantage of using an mbc in parallel is that it utterly eliminates boost control overshoot.

if you have a physical issue causing boost creep, ie, not enough wastegate flow, then it will not help.

you would be able to discern the difference by running the vf39 with the mbc and seeing if you're able to clamp boost to your target without overshoot.

running iwg and ewg in parallel gives you the ability to drive stealthily at partial throttle, while a VTA ewg gives you max VE (and noise) at WOT.
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Old 04-30-2013, 07:29 AM   #712
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Is anyone gunning their IWG with a VTA EWG?
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:13 AM   #713
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-wrong thread. Stupid phone.
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Old 04-30-2013, 09:53 AM   #714
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the key advantage of using an mbc in parallel is that it utterly eliminates boost control overshoot.

if you have a physical issue causing boost creep, ie, not enough wastegate flow, then it will not help.

you would be able to discern the difference by running the vf39 with the mbc and seeing if you're able to clamp boost to your target without overshoot.

running iwg and ewg in parallel gives you the ability to drive stealthily at partial throttle, while a VTA ewg gives you max VE (and noise) at WOT.
True, but in theory the Profec should also eliminate overboost and if he sees overboost he can instantly adjust the correction sensitivity (Gain) from the box. However, I guess that's the same dilemma more or less with the stock setup. Running a ball MBC parallel would allow him to set a hard limit and could use the gain simply to dial in the aggressiveness of the spool up.

By looking at the Profec installation diagram, it looks like the Profec Valve unit is a 2 port interrupt setup. That should make running a ball MBC parallel that much easier because there's no 3rd VTA port to block off.

Worth a shot I suppose. Do we know if the valve unit on the Profec is an oscillating solenoid or a butterfly valve?

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Old 04-30-2013, 11:22 AM   #715
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True, but in theory the Profec should also eliminate overboost and if he sees overboost he can instantly adjust the correction sensitivity (Gain) from the box. However, I guess that's the same dilemma more or less with the stock setup. Running a ball MBC parallel would allow him to set a hard limit and could use the gain simply to dial in the aggressiveness of the spool up.

By looking at the Profec installation diagram, it looks like the Profec Valve unit is a 2 port interrupt setup. That should make running a ball MBC parallel that much easier because there's no 3rd VTA port to block off.

Worth a shot I suppose. Do we know if the valve unit on the Profec is an oscillating solenoid or a butterfly valve?
I don't know a whole lot about it but it came on my car with what seemed to be the worst tune ever. I researched how the mbc worked and I could adjust the the target boost to say 18 and the gain would just slow spool up and no matter where the target was set to it would start creeping up to 20+ and if I did not let off it would keep going. I got a few fuel cuts for overboost and decided to hand the car over to cobb and they set me up with eliminating the mbc and doing a protune with the 3 port. So now the car maintains boost much better than before but still when running threw the gears at wot it will still over shoot target boost by 2 or 3 psi, more so in low outside temps and they just told me some cars that are catless will have boost creep that can't be tuned all the way out so the next step is ewg. The car was inspected prior to the protune for a mechanical issue but nothing was found.
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Old 04-30-2013, 03:03 PM   #716
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I don't know a whole lot about it but it came on my car with what seemed to be the worst tune ever. I researched how the mbc worked and I could adjust the the target boost to say 18 and the gain would just slow spool up and no matter where the target was set to it would start creeping up to 20+ and if I did not let off it would keep going. I got a few fuel cuts for overboost and decided to hand the car over to cobb and they set me up with eliminating the mbc and doing a protune with the 3 port. So now the car maintains boost much better than before but still when running threw the gears at wot it will still over shoot target boost by 2 or 3 psi, more so in low outside temps and they just told me some cars that are catless will have boost creep that can't be tuned all the way out so the next step is ewg. The car was inspected prior to the protune for a mechanical issue but nothing was found.
you sound like an ideal candidate for the parallel mbc.

there is no reason why your car should have uncontrollable boost creep past 20psi.

if you already own the mbc, and the car is already (mostly) tuned on the 3 port and oem ecu, then for the price of two tees and a bit of hose you can try it out.
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Old 04-30-2013, 04:31 PM   #717
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Well, you have to adjust the "SET" value on the Profec if you're overboosting that much, the Gain isn't going to fix the amount of overboost you're running into. The target boost level is just a target which the Profec isn't going to automatically figure out how to hit.

http://www.greddy.com/upload/file/PRofec_Bspec2.pdf

The "SET" mode on the profec is essentially the same as the subaru control for max wastegate duty cycle. The gain is just the rate at which corrections are applied but unlike the subaru control you can also bump up the duty cycle past the max value by adjusting the gain really high. You can also essentially reduce the max duty cycle which reduces boost by turning it lower. However, before gain begins to adjust the on-target duty cycle values up or down you have to have a SET value dialed in for on-target boost. If the SET value is higher than your target requires (like yours must be right now causing overboost) the Gain will not be able to subtract enough duty cycle to get back down to target.

Anyway, by introducing an MBC to the setup you can max out your SET value which maxes the spoolup time and you can use the gain to adjust the partial throttle and spool up rates as you've been trying to instead.

Here's how you'd tee in the MBC to your profec boost lines on your car.


Once you do this, you can simply max out the SET value on your Profec unit and set the target boost on the profec, over a couple WOT pulls you can set the max boost on the MBC (start with the MBC knob really loose to undershoot your target and make small adjustments until you make target).

Once the max boost on the MBC is done, you can go into the profec, and from say, 50% SET begin to increase the SET value so you hit max boost in your desired gear, I'd choose 3rd but you could leave the SET to 100% to leave it at full MBC control which could yield max boost in 1st or 2nd depending on your turbo

Then you should be able to control the boost spoolup with the gain knob as you've been trying to.

You can use the SET value to reduce the max boost below the MBC as well. Since also have a "low boost" mode on the Profec. If you dial that in you can have a separate lower boost limit with the MBC on the car too. Pretty sweet.

Last edited by BrandonDrums; 04-30-2013 at 04:49 PM.
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Old 05-01-2013, 01:10 AM   #718
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Well, you have to adjust the "SET" value on the Profec if you're overboosting that much, the Gain isn't going to fix the amount of overboost you're running into. The target boost level is just a target which the Profec isn't going to automatically figure out how to hit.

http://www.greddy.com/upload/file/PRofec_Bspec2.pdf

The "SET" mode on the profec is essentially the same as the subaru control for max wastegate duty cycle. The gain is just the rate at which corrections are applied but unlike the subaru control you can also bump up the duty cycle past the max value by adjusting the gain really high. You can also essentially reduce the max duty cycle which reduces boost by turning it lower. However, before gain begins to adjust the on-target duty cycle values up or down you have to have a SET value dialed in for on-target boost. If the SET value is higher than your target requires (like yours must be right now causing overboost) the Gain will not be able to subtract enough duty cycle to get back down to target.

Anyway, by introducing an MBC to the setup you can max out your SET value which maxes the spoolup time and you can use the gain to adjust the partial throttle and spool up rates as you've been trying to instead.

Here's how you'd tee in the MBC to your profec boost lines on your car.

Once you do this, you can simply max out the SET value on your Profec unit and set the target boost on the profec, over a couple WOT pulls you can set the max boost on the MBC (start with the MBC knob really loose to undershoot your target and make small adjustments until you make target).

Once the max boost on the MBC is done, you can go into the profec, and from say, 50% SET begin to increase the SET value so you hit max boost in your desired gear, I'd choose 3rd but you could leave the SET to 100% to leave it at full MBC control which could yield max boost in 1st or 2nd depending on your turbo

Then you should be able to control the boost spoolup with the gain knob as you've been trying to.

You can use the SET value to reduce the max boost below the MBC as well. Since also have a "low boost" mode on the Profec. If you dial that in you can have a separate lower boost limit with the MBC on the car too. Pretty sweet.
Ok thanks for all the info, im a bit confused tho the profec itself is a mbc. So when your saying set the mbc target boost then go into the profec and set it to 50%. On the profec there are three dials gain, low boost and high boost. What I was doing was like you said set the high boost to a target and see where its at then dial it up or down for desired target boost then adjust the gain on how quickly the waste gate opens. My problem was that no matter where the high or low boost dial was set to it would always go past whatever target the boost dial was set to and the gain would only slow spool down. This is why I disconnected it cuz the boost seemed to be uncontrollable. But for a hybrid set up is there also a mbc that goes in off the boost lines for the profec. Im just curious cuz I was just looking for the set up to be the 3 port ebc with the profec mbc to control the external Watergate. Sorry of I sound like a noob it just sounded from your post that there would essentially be two mbcs, the profec and the mbc you had teed off in the diagram.

Also sorry I just looked at that link you posted just now and that unit is not the same as mine. Its profec type c. I think the only difference is that the set on the type 2 is the same as the high and low boost on the type c. I could be wrong tho

Last edited by Coreycarlile911; 05-01-2013 at 01:46 AM.
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Old 05-01-2013, 02:31 PM   #719
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Ok thanks for all the info, im a bit confused tho the profec itself is a mbc. So when your saying set the mbc target boost then go into the profec and set it to 50%. On the profec there are three dials gain, low boost and high boost. What I was doing was like you said set the high boost to a target and see where its at then dial it up or down for desired target boost then adjust the gain on how quickly the waste gate opens. My problem was that no matter where the high or low boost dial was set to it would always go past whatever target the boost dial was set to and the gain would only slow spool down. This is why I disconnected it cuz the boost seemed to be uncontrollable. But for a hybrid set up is there also a mbc that goes in off the boost lines for the profec. Im just curious cuz I was just looking for the set up to be the 3 port ebc with the profec mbc to control the external Watergate. Sorry of I sound like a noob it just sounded from your post that there would essentially be two mbcs, the profec and the mbc you had teed off in the diagram.

Also sorry I just looked at that link you posted just now and that unit is not the same as mine. Its profec type c. I think the only difference is that the set on the type 2 is the same as the high and low boost on the type c. I could be wrong tho
Oh, ha, I had the complete wrong Profec Unit in mind. My bud has the one-knob Type-S one and we had a long discussion one night about how it works vs. the Subaru boost control.

I have no idea about the 3 knob one. I know you can hook up the hoses the same way as my diagram but as far as programming it I haven't a clue.

FYI, Standalone boost control systems like your Greddy/Profec one are manual ELECTRONIC boost controllers. The only real difference between them and the factory boost system is that they have an electronic module with different logic for tuning boost. They still rely on a 2 port interrupt solenoid valve to work which is the same thing as a 3 port solenoid with the bleed valve capped (like in the hybrid boost control setup).

Adding a ball and spring manual boost controller in parallel with the valve unit from the profec system will work the same way as it does with the 3 port boost controller on the factory setup.

Hopefully someone more familiar with your profec unit can tell you how to set that up correctly.

Here's the manual for it, I can't make heads or tails of how to address the overboost you're having though.

http://www.greddy.com/upload/file/PRofec_Bspec.pdf
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:15 PM   #720
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Hey guys, I posted this in the 2.5 powertrain cause of the inceased traffic but Ill give it a try here too.
Im in the process of getting tuned for a hybrid boost control setup and some larger injectors.
I am running a Grimmspeed ebcs and a Grimmspeed mbc. I am getting over boost and I cannot seem to fix the problem. My tuner has my wastegate duty cycle set to zero at the moment so that we can dial in the mbc and what I should be seeing is just wastegate pressure of 14 psi. The car is peaking around 18.5 psi on thrid gear pulls even with the mbc backed all the way off.

I have plugged off the number 1 port on the ebcs and the the nipple it fed to on the turbo inlet.
I have also plugged the bleed hole on the mbc which was recomended in this setup to prevent over boost.

Everything else is tight and all lines are zip tied, Im really not sure what to check next. The only thing I can possible think is the issue is that the way I blocked off the bleed hole on the mbc is still leaking. It did seem to drive better after I did it but perhaps its not perfect.
Anyone who has a good way of blocking off the bleed port Id love to hear it.
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:25 PM   #721
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Did you try just running the mbc or even just a straight house from the nipple to the WG? Eliminate everything then add in the mbc and then the ebc.

If the ebc is wired backward than your zero could be seen as 100% instead. Hose length can effect the issue. And ideally you would want to set the ebc to 100% to give the control over to the MBC. I had a similar issue initially but the plug on the 3rd port is what fixed my spikes.

Has your tuner done a hybrid boost control setup before?

Also there have been several posts on here with the diagram. Try posting up how you did yours so we can take a look
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Old 05-28-2013, 09:55 PM   #722
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Thanks for trying to help me out!

That will be my next step is to run just the mbc and see what happens, I had never thought of that if it is being read wrong and the Watergate duty should actually be 100%.

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=2158005

The diagram in the first post is how a set mine up but I have capped off the number one port and the nipple on the inlet it would feed to.
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Old 05-28-2013, 10:18 PM   #723
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Originally Posted by Ilovecugars View Post
Hey guys, I posted this in the 2.5 powertrain cause of the inceased traffic but Ill give it a try here too.
Im in the process of getting tuned for a hybrid boost control setup and some larger injectors.
I am running a Grimmspeed ebcs and a Grimmspeed mbc. I am getting over boost and I cannot seem to fix the problem. My tuner has my wastegate duty cycle set to zero at the moment so that we can dial in the mbc and what I should be seeing is just wastegate pressure of 14 psi. The car is peaking around 18.5 psi on thrid gear pulls even with the mbc backed all the way off.

I have plugged off the number 1 port on the ebcs and the the nipple it fed to on the turbo inlet.
I have also plugged the bleed hole on the mbc which was recomended in this setup to prevent over boost.

Everything else is tight and all lines are zip tied, Im really not sure what to check next. The only thing I can possible think is the issue is that the way I blocked off the bleed hole on the mbc is still leaking. It did seem to drive better after I did it but perhaps its not perfect.
Anyone who has a good way of blocking off the bleed port Id love to hear it.
Sounds like there are several issues here. Setting wgdc to 0 would mean you're running only wastegate actuator pressure which is really low, not high. If you're over posting with wgdc set to 0 either the ebcs is hooked up wrong, you have a massive leak in the boost control hoses or the wastegate actuator is seized and won't open even with plenty of boost signal.

If the tuner really is trying to setup the MBC with wgdc set to zero, chances are he doesn't understand how the boost control system works and has the hoses routed incorrectly.

If he has it set to 100 and everything routed correctly and the MBC isn't controlling boost then the MBC is clogged, there's a leak or the wastegate actuator or wastegate itself is seized.

I had a faulty Wastegate actuator on a brand new turbo once, it was too weak rather than too strong or seized up but it can happen.
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Old 05-29-2013, 07:26 AM   #724
666stars
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Me and my tuner just set up my car yesterday with a prodrive 3 port and turbosmart mbc, we followed the setup from the first page. It works perfectly . So either it's hooked up wrong or the ebcs or mbc is broken. I would try to set up just the mbc and get that sorted first.
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Old 05-29-2013, 10:31 AM   #725
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while troubleshooting boost control, always start with single unobstructed hose straight from compressor to wga. this will net wastegate spring tension. it should be absolutely rock steady with no creep or overshoot or ringing/oscillation. if you have any of those problems, stop there and find out why and fix it before moving on with additional hoses/connectors/components/etc.
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