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View Poll Results: How much oil goes missing between oil changes?
Less then 1 ltr 20 35.71%
About 1 ltr 15 26.79%
1-2 ltr's 18 32.14%
3 or more ltr's 6 10.71%
I put a ltr or more in every fill-up 2 3.57%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 56. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 02-14-2013, 12:48 AM   #26
williaty
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The way Subaru advises breaking in the car is basically guaranteed to prevent the rings from ever sealing properly.

Also, I still want to know why the OP thinks it's not leaking.
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Old 04-04-2013, 12:27 AM   #27
smallv
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Default Things to check if you have high oil consumption

Quote:
Originally Posted by The G.O.A.T. View Post
I have a 2007 2.5 wagon and from day one there has been about 1-2lt of missing oil at every change. Just wondering what the average was for these cars.
I've owned subarus since 1995 and I've had a variety of oil consumption problems with each. I currently own a 2008 Forester and a 2008 Outback. The outback oil consumption has been very high since about year 2. I brought it in to the dealership on multiple occasions asking them to examine the oil consumption. On the last occasion, they observed some oil on the lower engine block but no apparent source such as a leaking gasket. Now that the car is out of warranty, I believe my non-dealership mechanic found what's been going wrong for years. I asked the mechanic for a compression test. When his team pulled out the first spark plug wire, they found it was soaked in oil. This was difficult to understand and he had to explain it a few times. The Subaru spark plugs sit in a recessed cavity that looks like a 1" diameter cylinder opening diagonally upwards. The Subaru spark plug wires terminate in a large rubber cylinder also about 1" in diameter and about almost six inches long. There is a seal at the top of the spark plug wire socket that keeps water and debris out of the six inch deep cylindrical cavity. The only way for oil to enter the cavity is through a seal that is close in proximity to the valve cover gasket but it is actually a different seal. If this seal leaks, engine oil can leak into the spark plug cavities. None of this oil reaches the ignition end of the spark plug, it sits between the porcelain of the spark plug and the cylindrical cavity that surrounds the external portion of the spark plug.

If you oil consumption is high, pull out each of the spark plug wires and look for oil. If there is oil there and you are under warrantee then you should be able to get this fixed for free. Itís the kind of thing you want to check as your car nears the end of its warrantee.

I was not there for the repair but I'm told it involved removing the Valve covers. I'm also told it was a very tricky job since the bolts were sized and there is very little room to work. The story goes that it took three mechanics, one with a torch, one pulling on the socket wrench from underneath and a third using a pry bar to pry against the frame of the car to hold the socket square and tight to the top of the bolts. They told me there was a high risk of twisting off the bolts. They ordered new bolts from the dealership due to the stress and rounding inflicted on the original bolts.

Assuming the bolts were not seized, I suspect the repair is as simple as removing several bolts and replacing several gaskets.

One more oil consumption tip is that I have learned not to trust the aluminum crush rings that seal between the oil plan and the oil drain plug. They leak if you over tighten them and they really leak if you get a non-dealership oil change and the mechanic fails to order a new crush ring. Its also a pain if you change your own oil because its easy to forget to order the part until you have already drained the oil.

So my work around is a metal/rubber oil plug gasket that can be ordered from Benson auto parts or from a Chrysler dealership. The Benson part is cheaper ($8 vs. $12). Both are oversized by 1mm. The gap is only a concern if the seal shifts to one side during tightening. To prevent that, I fill the gap by stretching an undersized O-ring around the base of the drain plug. You need to start with a relatively thin O-ring that is about half the diameter of the drain plug. As you stretch the small O-ring around the larger drain plug, the o-ring gets skinnier. A little bit of trial and error with an assorted O-ring set and you'll find the right ring to fill the 1mm gap. I'm not relying on the O-ring for a seal, only as a spacer to keep the rubber/steel seal well centered during the tightening process. The seal might actually be brass/rubber, I'm not sure. In any case, itís like a washer that has rubber a rubber bead bonded to the inner circumference.

The part ordering details are as follows:

Replacement part for 94 - 2001 dodge Ram Diesel
Chrysler Part number:
4882049
http://cgenterprises.com/chrysler_oem_numbers.htm


or:

FMS 2130 as a part number for Benson Automotive.

I suspect the source manufacturer and part number is

Dorman - Autograde Oil Drain Plug Gasket - Metal/Rubber Fits M20

Dorman Part numbers
097-133.1
or

097-133

However I had little luck with those part number unless I wanted to order 100 of them.

The Chrysler Option was convenient because they had the part there to pick up within 24 hours.

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Old 04-04-2013, 01:07 AM   #28
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Alternately, you could just pay the 92 cents for a Subaru OEM crush washer, torque it properly to 33lbf-ft and it will never, ever leak.
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Old 06-20-2013, 10:31 PM   #29
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Default Valve Cover Change

Quote:

I was not there for the repair but I'm told it involved removing the Valve covers. I'm also told it was a very tricky job since the bolts were sized and there is very little room to work. The story goes that it took three mechanics, one with a torch, one pulling on the socket wrench from underneath and a third using a pry bar to pry against the frame of the car to hold the socket square and tight to the top of the bolts. They told me there was a high risk of twisting off the bolts. They ordered new bolts from the dealership due to the stress and rounding inflicted on the original bolts.


Assuming the bolts were not seized, I suspect the repair is as simple as removing several bolts and replacing several gaskets.
I replaced my Valve Cover Gaskets in April, it took me about 45 minutes for the passenger side and about 35 minutes for the driver side, to get the cover out from along the wheel well i just lightly jacked up the engine with a 2x4 under the oil pan. It only took about 1/4", also a set of 10mm racheting cresents make a world of difference. You can access the lower bolts by removing the plastic guard that is just inside of each front tire. BTW Wility thanks for all of the advice on the air filter with a snorkus and all, car has been running great. Put new Iridiums in when i did the gaskets and spark plug gaskets.
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Old 06-20-2013, 11:38 PM   #30
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My 2005 RS uses about 1.25 QT's per 1k miles and is getting worse. I'm preparing to re-ring the engine so we'll see if that helps it any.
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Old 06-21-2013, 12:12 AM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mctator View Post
My 2005 RS uses about 1.25 QT's per 1k miles and is getting worse. I'm preparing to re-ring the engine so we'll see if that helps it any.
Just re-ringing it probably won't help much.

The bores wear pretty seriously on the 05 blocks. Every bore I've ever checked past 100,000mi has been both oval and tapered top to bottom. You end up having to have the block re-bored for cylindrical, then measure the bores and order the oversized replacement pistons from Subaru, then have the block finish bored and honed to match the pistons, then put rings on it and break it in right (beat on it). It'll use 0 oil after that.
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Old 06-22-2013, 06:25 PM   #32
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About half a quart between changes at 5-6k mile intervals in my daughter's 2000 RS. Currently has 125k miles on it and purchased it with 60k on it. In the past it got Max Life 5W-30 and now it gets Pennzoil Conventional High Mileage 5W-30.

Wife's previous 99 Outback had similar consumption running the same oils and intervals.

-Dennis
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Old 06-22-2013, 08:15 PM   #33
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Oem crush washer...too tight.

Hmm, I must have been over tightening my bolt every time by a rather significant margin. I tend to put my weight into it, lol. I have yet to see any oil leak on several Subarus I've owned. I've never replaced a metal crush washer...ever...on any car I've ever owned.

I'm confused.


Oil consumption varies and leaks can be from many, many things. It's not easy to say why the consumption exists without actually digging into the car and finding the problem. It can leak by the pistons. It can leak by the valves. It can leak through the breather lines. It can leak by seals/gaskets. Some gets burned up. Some drips on the ground. Some even makes it into your coolant system (and visa versa).

As a general rule, a worn engine will burn more. An engine that is used hard will burn more. It kind of depends on how you use the car. I have an engine that can burn a quart in a day that it can burn in 3000 miles simply by how the car is used.

You can often reduce consumption by stepping to a thicker "hot" viscosity. By this I mean stepping from a 5w30 to a 5w40. In my experience consumption about halves per level. As williaty said years ago, it's not the cold weight that matters. A 0w30 is still very thick cold, but it's better than a 5w30 or 10w30 in winter climates because it isn't as thick cold as those other oils despite still being quite thick versus when hot. You can get up to a 0w50 if you want it. You can also get 10w60 if you need it. I have not found a 5w60 yet. Eneos makes a 0w50, great for worn, loose engines, and great for year round use. If your engine is shot, you try to step to a 40 weight and see what happens. Then you step to a 50 weight and see what happens. Eventually consumption gets low enough that it's quite normal and doesn't foul out your air/fuel sensor every month (one of the more expensive aspects of owning an oil burning engine).

I should note that higher viscosity may be good for minimizing consumption, but it also reduced flow volume of oil through the engine. Thick oil is good for shear resistance but not good for cooling. You need flow volume to cool, so thin is good...if you can get away with it. If you can use a 30 weight, use a 30 weight. Step to thicker only based on need. Eventually you do have to rebuild the engine, but these thicker oils can get consumption down low enough to where it's liveable. I should also note that thicker oil helps reduce leaks everywhere, just a note.
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Old 02-24-2015, 12:05 AM   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Back Road Runner View Post
Oem crush washer...too tight.

Hmm, I must have been over tightening my bolt every time by a rather significant margin. I tend to put my weight into it, lol. I have yet to see any oil leak on several Subarus I've owned. I've never replaced a metal crush washer...ever...on any car I've ever owned.

I'm confused.


Oil consumption varies and leaks can be from many, many things. It's not easy to say why the consumption exists without actually digging into the car and finding the problem. It can leak by the pistons. It can leak by the valves. It can leak through the breather lines. It can leak by seals/gaskets. Some gets burned up. Some drips on the ground. Some even makes it into your coolant system (and visa versa).

As a general rule, a worn engine will burn more. An engine that is used hard will burn more. It kind of depends on how you use the car. I have an engine that can burn a quart in a day that it can burn in 3000 miles simply by how the car is used.

You can often reduce consumption by stepping to a thicker "hot" viscosity. By this I mean stepping from a 5w30 to a 5w40. In my experience consumption about halves per level. As williaty said years ago, it's not the cold weight that matters. A 0w30 is still very thick cold, but it's better than a 5w30 or 10w30 in winter climates because it isn't as thick cold as those other oils despite still being quite thick versus when hot. You can get up to a 0w50 if you want it. You can also get 10w60 if you need it. I have not found a 5w60 yet. Eneos makes a 0w50, great for worn, loose engines, and great for year round use. If your engine is shot, you try to step to a 40 weight and see what happens. Then you step to a 50 weight and see what happens. Eventually consumption gets low enough that it's quite normal and doesn't foul out your air/fuel sensor every month (one of the more expensive aspects of owning an oil burning engine).

I should note that higher viscosity may be good for minimizing consumption, but it also reduced flow volume of oil through the engine. Thick oil is good for shear resistance but not good for cooling. You need flow volume to cool, so thin is good...if you can get away with it. If you can use a 30 weight, use a 30 weight. Step to thicker only based on need. Eventually you do have to rebuild the engine, but these thicker oils can get consumption down low enough to where it's liveable. I should also note that thicker oil helps reduce leaks everywhere, just a note.
Wouldn't going from 5w to 10w help with consumption on cold starts? because the 10w will stick to the cylinder walls better?... or something like that? A couple dealership mechanics told me to move to 10w30 or 10w40 if my na subie is consuming oil. 40 because at hotter temperatures it will be a little thicker and wont allow so much play in the more worn engine components that could allow oil to slip by like the bairings and stuff. is this all wrong???
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Old 02-24-2015, 12:16 AM   #35
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No. When cold, all oil is so damned thick that it's not a problem for consumption. The only thing the cold number affects is protection while starting. The lower the cold number, the better the protection during cold starts. You want the thinnest cold weight you possibly can get that's matched with a hot viscosity that's correct for your engine.


If such a thing were made, we'd all be best off using something like a -100W30 for our engines.
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Old 02-24-2015, 12:23 AM   #36
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
No. When cold, all oil is so damned thick that it's not a problem for consumption. The only thing the cold number affects is protection while starting. The lower the cold number, the better the protection during cold starts. You want the thinnest cold weight you possibly can get that's matched with a hot viscosity that's correct for your engine.


If such a thing were made, we'd all be best off using something like a -100W30 for our engines.
so why is it that so many subie's run 10w oil? is it just because they have aturbo and thats good for them or what is the reason?
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Old 02-24-2015, 12:26 AM   #37
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does pour point have anything to do with the cold number because on another techinical forum someone says "M1 10w30hm has the lowest pour point of the entire M1 line at -54."
http://bobistheoilguy.com/forums/ubb...Number=1981471 they also go on to say something about how M1 10w30 HM has like the most ppm of all these super good molecules. like moly and boron and zzn and phosphorus and some other stuff... I'm probably not doing their research very much justice.

thank you for replying so quickly btw i've been going crazy over all the different things im reading.

Also i could have sworn that i read in a research article that most oil is consumed upon cold startup while the engine and the seals and rings warms up because that is when the most friction is happening and everything is expanding and the walls have not yet been lubricated so if the oil is thin on startup then its not providing as much protection from all the friction.

Last edited by Kevinsmith312; 02-24-2015 at 12:46 AM.
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Old 02-24-2015, 12:41 AM   #38
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevinsmith312 View Post
so why is it that so many subie's run 10w oil? is it just because they have aturbo and thats good for them or what is the reason?
Most Subarus don't run 10w30 and all of them shouldn't. The simple fact is that almost no one bothers to actually learn the science behind oil so they do a lot of stupid things to their poor engines.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevinsmith312 View Post
does pour point have anything to do with the cold number
Not directly. You can't calculate one from the other. In general, though, lower cold viscosity also has lower pour point.
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Old 02-24-2015, 12:58 AM   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
Most Subarus don't run 10w30 and all of them shouldn't. The simple fact is that almost no one bothers to actually learn the science behind oil so they do a lot of stupid things to their poor engines.



Not directly. You can't calculate one from the other. In general, though, lower cold viscosity also has lower pour point.
Since M1 10w30 has the lowest pour point of the M1 line then would it mean that it would be better at cold start than 5w30 or would it be better just to refer to the 5 and the 10 for cold start protection and not pour point for cold start protection.

So does this contradict what your saying at all or why is it that they're saying after higher milage to move up to 10w30? they're not changing the second number so they must be trying to change the viscosity of the oil when its cold started right?
this:
As mileage adds up and internal engine wear increases bearing clearances, it may be wise to switch to a slightly higher viscosity rating to prolong engine life, reduce noise and oil consumption. For example, if an engine originally factory-filled with 5W-30 now has 90,000 miles on it, switching to a 10W-30 oil may provide better lubrication and protection. The thicker oil will maintain the strength of the oil film in the bearings better so the engine will have more oil pressure. This will also reduce engine noise and reduced bearing fatigue (which can lead to bearing failure in high mileage engines).

Note: Motor oils that have a wider range viscosity rating such a 5W-30, 5W-40 and 0W-40 are blended with more base stocks and additives. Because of this, it may be harder for a wider range oil to remain in grade as the miles accumulate (which is why GM does NOT recommend using 10W-40 motor oil. They say it breaks down too quickly and does not say in grade as long as 10W-30 or 5W-30. Also, an oil with a lower winter rating like 0W-20 or 5W-20 will contain a higher percentage of thinner base stock oil (which is typically a synthetic oil). This requires more viscosity improver additive to achieve a the same high temperature rating as a 10W-30, 10W-40 or straight 30 or 40 weight oil. http://www.aa1car.com/library/oil_viscosity.htm

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Old 02-24-2015, 01:07 AM   #40
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevinsmith312 View Post
Since M1 10w30 has the lowest pour point of the M1 line then would it mean that it would be better at cold start than 5w30 or would it be better just to refer to the 5 and the 10 for cold start protection and not pour point.
At the temps in the continental US, cold viscosity number is what you should look at. If you're so far north that you're having morning temps that get close to the pour point, then you ought to look at that too.

The M1 oil sold in the US is not very good. We don't get the nice stuff they sell to the Europeans. You'll get the same level of protection out of something like Pennzoil in the yellow bottle. If you want a better performing oil, look at Redline or the full-synthetic lines from Motul or ELF. Those are the best things out there for protection because they have the highest HTHS viscosity for when your engine is fully warmed up matched with the lowest cold viscosity for best protection when starting. Of course, you pay more for that better performance.

Quote:
why is it that they're saying after higher milage to move up to 10w30? they're not changing the second number so they must be trying to change the viscosity of the oil when its cold started right?
Again, most people who post things, even on oil forums, never bother to learn any science so they keep repeating the same misinformation they heard from someone else.


The only potential advantage in moving from a 5w30 to a 10w30 is that the reduced Viscosity Index (difference between numbers before and after the w) means that a conventional mineral-oil based product can run less Viscosity Index Improver additives, which might make it a more durable oil. Of course, you can also solve that problem by going to a PAO or di-ester based oil like Redline or the high-buck Motul and ELF oils.
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Old 02-24-2015, 01:19 AM   #41
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
At the temps in the continental US, cold viscosity number is what you should look at. If you're so far north that you're having morning temps that get close to the pour point, then you ought to look at that too.

The M1 oil sold in the US is not very good. We don't get the nice stuff they sell to the Europeans. You'll get the same level of protection out of something like Pennzoil in the yellow bottle. If you want a better performing oil, look at Redline or the full-synthetic lines from Motul or ELF. Those are the best things out there for protection because they have the highest HTHS viscosity for when your engine is fully warmed up matched with the lowest cold viscosity for best protection when starting. Of course, you pay more for that better performance.


Again, most people who post things, even on oil forums, never bother to learn any science so they keep repeating the same misinformation they heard from someone else.


The only potential advantage in moving from a 5w30 to a 10w30 is that the reduced Viscosity Index (difference between numbers before and after the w) means that a conventional mineral-oil based product can run less Viscosity Index Improver additives, which might make it a more durable oil. Of course, you can also solve that problem by going to a PAO or di-ester based oil like Redline or the high-buck Motul and ELF oils.
Mobile1 in america is different? they're one of my favorites so thats very disapointing to hear. here though on the mobile1 website someone asks a question about if the formula differes from place to place and this was they're response "The formulation and quality level of our motor oils are the same wherever the product name is the same, regardless of the package size in which it is sold. The difference in ACEA claims you are referring to sounds unfamiliar to us. Was it the exact same product in both cases?"

I believe what your saying that the people writing the articles on the websites are basing it on misinformation, just curious though where have you learned what you know?
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Old 02-24-2015, 01:25 AM   #42
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M1 in the rest of the world is a Group IV basestock oil because it performs well. However, it's expensive. In the US, they sell a Group III basestock oil under the same name in order to make more profit. I'm sure their statement is true in lawyer-speak. There's probably some technical detail that allows them to get away with saying that.

Learned what I have by studying the science of lubrication from industry journals and textbooks.
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Old 02-24-2015, 02:29 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by williaty View Post
M1 in the rest of the world is a Group IV basestock oil because it performs well. However, it's expensive. In the US, they sell a Group III basestock oil under the same name in order to make more profit. I'm sure their statement is true in lawyer-speak. There's probably some technical detail that allows them to get away with saying that.

Learned what I have by studying the science of lubrication from industry journals and textbooks.
I just went on a binge trying to find anyplace that was saying that the M1 differs depending on the country and it was really really hard but i saw a couple people who said that. I tried to find good UOA around that compare same weights of oil but it was really hard. best articles i found were. I only looked for articles that actually showed their data. http://www.thedirtforum.com/oils.htm
http://www.c66racing-synthetics.com/...20Analysis.htm
this was the best one I think, probably a little old though http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil%20Tests.pdf

is valvoline a good oil in your opinion?
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Old 02-24-2015, 02:48 AM   #44
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isn't this good data for mobil 1? its an american group testing random samples of oil from the field, heres mobil 1http://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/mobil1530a.htm
heres penzoilhttp://www.pqiamerica.com/June%202014/pennzplatinum.htm

this is probably the best one because it compares a bunch of synthetic brands together it says they were testing because "The results of the tests conducted on each of these brands meet the requirements of an API SN, ILSAC GF-5, SAE 5W-30 engine oil."http://www.pqiamerica.com/March2013PCMO/Marchsyntheticsallfinal.html

and holy **** here's a study that blows my mind its so long and extensive its hard to make things out but i can just a little https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/201...-test-ranking/

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Old 02-24-2015, 03:24 AM   #45
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and here is that last link except a little more user friendly. http://speedtalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=30483
basically from reading this can i asume that penzoil ultra 5w30 is what would be best to put in my 115k mile na 2006 impreza that burns oil. because not only is it #1 on that list but its also the weight specified in the manual. or is there something better that you know of that will limit my oil consumption?
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Old 02-24-2015, 03:54 AM   #46
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if i use 5w instead of 10w then would it be more likely that the thinner oil find its way around my seals causing more consumption? and wont this also be the case for 30 vs 40?
sorry for the million question bombardment.
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Old 02-24-2015, 01:00 PM   #47
williaty
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OK, you really need to calm the hell down and think about this stuff more clearly.

The number before the W is how thick the oil is when cold. The number after the W is how thick the oil is when it's hot. Leakage past seals happens when the oil is hot and thin. In other words, only the 2nd number matters for leakage. The number before the W has no effect on leakage.

However, leakage is the LEAST important thing happening in your engine. The viscosity of the oil determines the flow rate through the bearings. Flow through the bearings is what protects the engine. When you increase viscosity (go to a higher weight), you reduce flow and that reduces protection. Basically everyone that says a higher weight protects better is a damned idiot. You engine was designed around a 30 weight oil at normal operating temps, so use a 30 weight oil! The reason so many people mistakenly assume that heavier weight oils protect better is that so many race engines use heavier weight engines. What's getting lost is that race engines usually run hotter. The extra heat thins that 40 weight oil back down to the same viscosity as a 30 weight oil in a street engine.


The simplest way to determine that M1 is not a PAO or di-ester (Group IV or V) oil is to look at the HTHS viscosity vs the kinematic viscosity. You'll see that the M1 HTHS, in each oil weight offered, is lower than a good oil like Redline or Motul 300V. In fact, it looks suspiciously like a cheap dino oil like Pennzoil yellow bottle.
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Old 02-26-2015, 02:38 AM   #48
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Thank you very much you've been very informative I learned a lot, deffinitly can't listen to most of the stuff people say unless they have data to back it up! thank you!
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Old 02-28-2015, 07:38 PM   #49
Kevinsmith312
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Williaty i forgot to ask you, if 5w30 is being consumed why would it not be beneficial to move up a weight to 5w40? If there's blow by then wouldn't there be less blowby in a heavier weight because then the oil isn't passing the seals as easy?


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Old 02-28-2015, 08:14 PM   #50
perds
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I'm at 165000km. Every 6000-7000km here, I'd say difference is less than 500mL. Hope info is useful. Cheers.

Edit: I get my filters straight from the dealership (5 at a time). They throw in those crush washers with them and it's like 40$ total. Always have replaced the washer, it seems trivial not to.

Last edited by perds; 02-28-2015 at 08:20 PM.
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