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Old 04-06-2013, 12:53 AM   #101
heavyD
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I would be interested to see the dyno curves for this engine as I imagine it has a pretty large turbocharger on it. I realize with DI they can run a higher compression and all the internals forged should be able to handle a fair bit of abuse but I would expect some turbo lag for a 2.0L at this power level.

BMW's new turbo 2.0L 4-cylinder while not making near the same power is a pretty impressive engine in itself scooting the heavy 3-series around very quickly as it's nice to see what high end manufacturers can do with this engine configuration. We've seen it for years from the Japanese car companies but those engines (even the 4G63 or SR20DET) were always built at a price point whereas BMW and MB can incorporate higher quality internal parts and technology.
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Old 04-06-2013, 01:13 AM   #102
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
with reguards to CF.. I find your post comical. So we are talking about interior trim pieces right? Which are neither structural or critical to the function of the car in any way. Most are not even in areas where you touch since those are leather, or in Mercedes land, leatherette unless you pay more. So paying a premium for a material that serves no other purpose than to look pretty while offering ZERO functional what so ever is better than not paying a premium for plastic that LOOKS just like CF or close enough that it does not matter. My VW has real aluminum trim pieces. Had they been plastic it would not have mattered.

If you said CF roof, or CF hood, or monocoque then great, you want the real thing. But other than that it is bling for the sake of bling.

I will say the merc has much nicer interior, but I would totally expect that. IT comes down to expectations. If I were to buy a Boss 302 I would not put too much worry into an impressive interior. However, if I were to buy a mustang GT I would want just that, A GT. If I make the choice to buy a track ready boss 302 then I take it with all the shortcomings as well as advantages.

If I buy a Merc, BMW, Audi, or even a lowly VW, I expect to a better interior than say a Subaru, a Toyota, or a Mazda

your reading comprehension is really low..

Where did I mention the FUNCTIONAL aspect/significance of CF interior pieces?

It's all in context of interior QUALITY

Please show me fake CF trim that looks at least half decent. People that know will notice a fake by looking trough the closed window lol

and CF trim in MB is just a PART of it. Even by looking at the pictures I can tell that material quality of the rest of the interior is better than Mustang's.

I ques you're that kind of a guy that would wear a fake gold chain and be happy because it's as shiny as real thing but 20x cheaper lol
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Old 04-06-2013, 09:53 AM   #103
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Quote:
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The only mpg advantage turbo 4s get is from driving while keeping out of boost enrichment.
I agree that generally speaking, the more you load any engine the more fuel it's going to use. That's simply common sense. Here's one thing to think about though: dethrottling. When you run a smaller engine in boost, you are running with the throttle much more open. This reduces pumping losses--work done against the throttle. It's a very common approach on so-called "downsized" turbo engines. To do this, you use the variable valve timing (and possibly variable valve lift system) system to create residual gas so that the throttle has to be opened more to achieve a given amount of engine torque. This also applies to lean-burn, cylinder deactivation, atkinson cycle, and a number of other tricks.

There's a difference between keeping out of boost and keeping out of enrichment (richer than lambda=1). At a given torque level, a small engine at higher load is more fuel efficient than a bigger engine at low load, as long as the smaller engine doesn't have to run pig rich to prevent knock or prevent the cat from burning up.

Good examples of this are the Fiat MultiAir 1.4T engine now in the Abarth, and the current BMW valvetronic + turbo engines. They use dethrottling extensively and have a broad area running lambda=1. VW also has an engine family with a water-cooled exhaust manifold now.

Quote:
That's how manufacturers can post artificial combinations of high horsepower and mpg ratings thereby appealing to customers and meeting government regulations while the actual ratio of power to mileage is not as representative as it is in a N/A car. (If you actually want to use any of that power.)
If the engine can run in a large operating area without dumping in fuel, then the real-world mpg is much closer to the rated fuel economy. That requires direct injection, a knock-resistant combustion chamber, more expensive exhaust components that can handle high heat, better fuel quality, water-cooled exhaust manifold, etc.

That's why you'll notice expensive small displacement turbo engines (BMW, VW/Audi) tend to have a smaller gap between its real-world and rated fuel economy than cheaper ones (Nissan Juke engine for example, Chevy Sonic 1.4). They don't have to dump in fuel as much, so they take advantage of the dethrottling aspect better.

Last edited by arghx7; 04-06-2013 at 10:00 AM.
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Old 04-06-2013, 12:05 PM   #104
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Originally Posted by Hate View Post
I spent last week driving a 2013 Boss with only 2k miles on it. I got in the car and said to myself how crappy the interior was. Besides the Recaros the interior was worse than my Impreza. It really sucked. The MB interior looks absolutely stunning. I don't even know how you could compare the two on the inside. This car is amazing, I wish I lived in Europe for a week so I could take it for a spin.
Practically the reason I've yet to own a Boss. It would take hooning it constantly to forget how awful the interior is. There's few cars on the market that check all the right boxes, and you're likely to have to dig deep to pay for one.
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:24 AM   #105
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Originally Posted by max pl View Post
i've driven a 13' legacy with all seasons in a foot of snow this winter, and it performed like a champ. if thats the performance i can expect from a car with no center diff. then i've made my earlier point of awd serving its purpose.
i'm not rallying in this **** so it'll satisfy my needs as a daily driver, and i've had the same experience with just about any AWD setup.
You want a laggy-ass 350hp 2.0l to daily drive.. like I said, we should agree to disagree.. because you and I are looking at this from completely opposite ends of the enthusiast spectrum. Been there.. done that.. never again.. have fun waiting for boost.
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Originally Posted by max pl View Post
you dont see the advantage of using a 4 cylinder as a daily driver over an 8? whats the biggest you can think of? hint: it costs about $4 dollars a gallon right now.
Big turbochargers don't save gas.. I get a feeling you won't believe me until you've seen it for yourself. My STI would get 19mpg doing 70mph down the interstate.

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Originally Posted by max pl View Post
and what is your stupid video supposed to prove? go find one that makes sense like comparing those two cars on the same tire. sure, RWD cars can move on snow tires, but isnt it obvious an AWD one with snows would perform even better?
You said yourself you've got all-seasons on your Legacy and are getting around just fine.. why do you think a RWD performance car is out of the question for where you live? If you can't get around with a RWD car in the winter on snow tires.. what makes you think a laggy 350hp AWD car (with crappy AWD) will be so great? My STI was one of the worst Subarus I've ever driven in the snow.. because of the horrible throttle response off-boost, the wide tires and the heavy weight... the exact same issues that made it a snore to drive on the street and the same issues that the CLA will have. But hey.. you keep on thinking you know everything because you've driven a Legacy through a winter.

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Originally Posted by max pl View Post
i mean seriously bro, what sane person thinks a v8 pony car that gets 15/26 mileage with that ugly ass unrefined interior... you're seriously trying to make an argument that a Boss 302 is a better daily driver than this CLA?[insert way too many lols here]
If you're looking for a performance car, daily driving should be good enough.. that's all I claim the 302 to be. I can guarantee the 302 is more enjoyable to drive on and off the track.. and if you're a performance enthusiast, that should be what matters (and I'm not even talking speed here). If you really just want a nice daily with a decent interior while having no plans to ever attend a driving event, get a Golf R and save a bundle.

Quote:
Originally Posted by manys View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus
If you wouldn't buy a M-B because of electronic issues before.. now you have a solid reason to avoid one for mechanical reasons as well.
Yeah, because"tooned" 2.0L WRX's with 350hp are blowing up left and right so this one would too This is so stupid I won't even try to explain...
Who said I was talking about the engine? Could you at least explain why you're making so many assumptions?

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Originally Posted by manys View Post
CJ ,your posts in this thread just annoy me so much, you write some really dumb things with such a conviction...I'll point out just a couple..
Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus
Carbon fiber trim? There are clapped out Honda Civics with APC headlights and carbon fiber trim running around my neighborhood right now.. carbon fiber trim is an expensive cloth soaked in a plastic resin.. it's still ****ing plastic. The Mustang has good materials in the touch points and when you're at the track that's all that matters.
How can you compare carbon fiber vinyl wrap or even some butchered CF aftermarket pieces with a factory MB CF?? Most CF is NOT made with plastic resin and even if it was, saying that it is like all other plastics is, again,plain dumb. It's like saying that diamond is the same as quartz because it's still just a mineral! looks the same too lol


  1. I said nothing about "vinyl wrap" or "butchered CF aftermarket pieces". If you keep putting words in my mouth you're bound to hate me as much as you understandably hate yourself. Now your'e arguing with Scrappy about fake CF when you're the idiot who mentioned it in the first place.
  2. CF, as used for interior trim pieces, is embedded in epoxy. Epoxy is plastic.

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Old 04-07-2013, 09:34 AM   #106
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I object, I plan to track my R this year with the sole purpose to destroy the All seasons it came with!

HAHA,, but I get what you meant CJ
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:38 AM   #107
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I don't think you need to object.. would you spend an extra $10k on a car with a slightly glitzier interior and way more lag on the street just for the occasional track day? Don't forget the mandatory flappy-paddle gearbox..
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:43 AM   #108
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I object, I plan to track my R this year with the sole purpose to destroy the All seasons it came with!
After defeating the undefeatable stability control, right? (Yes yes, VAGCOM should get around that) Talk about interiors, the R is tight. If only I wasn't so concerned about fuel efficiency and didn't drive so much to necessitate the TDI.

Back on topic, it does seem that Mercedes is mimicking the "sucked in gut" look of the BMW 1 series to make it look more svelte.
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Old 04-07-2013, 10:55 AM   #109
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I'd have to imagine that MB would tune this car like any other late-model twin-scroll turbo car... a plateau of torque from just off idle to the magic 5252.

Lag isn't really an issue anymore.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:48 AM   #110
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Not really on subject, but Skylab, check out the APR website. A vagcom cable and 30 minutes of time and you get the same 2 stage stability control that the rest of the world gets. You get on, partially disabled, and off. It only takes a VAGCOM cable just as you mentioned sir. I think VW is funny. They build this car capable of taking on all comers in europe then they just program away the hard nosed things for us lazy Americans. I think it is funny that the program for the 2 stage stability control is already in the computer, you just need to change a few numbers and it works just as if it were OEM.
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:53 AM   #111
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Originally Posted by Evil STI View Post
I'd have to imagine that MB would tune this car like any other late-model twin-scroll turbo car... a plateau of torque from just off idle to the magic 5252.

Lag isn't really an issue anymore.
You may be right. I was pretty sure that with 177hp/L it would have very little torque down low..

.. but the "specs" released so far suggest otherwise:
355 BHP @ 6000 RPM
332 lb-ft @ 2250-5000 RPM

The EVO X has a twin-scroll and is what I'd consider a somewhat modern engine, and it doesn't reach full boost until 3200rpm.

All of the twin-scroll setups I've seen with flat torque curves that come on at low RPM usually aren't good for horsepower bragging (see MCS, Focus ST, VWs/Audis).

I the dynos actually support this claim, I may have to about-face my opinion on this car.
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:43 PM   #112
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
You may be right. I was pretty sure that with 177hp/L it would have very little torque down low..

.. but the "specs" released so far suggest otherwise:
355 BHP @ 6000 RPM
332 lb-ft @ 2250-5000 RPM

The EVO X has a twin-scroll and is what I'd consider a somewhat modern engine, and it doesn't reach full boost until 3200rpm.

All of the twin-scroll setups I've seen with flat torque curves that come on at low RPM usually aren't good for horsepower bragging (see MCS, Focus ST, VWs/Audis).

I the dynos actually support this claim, I may have to about-face my opinion on this car.
True but we don't know the technology behind this engine. We are just speculating from old technology. I just drove a 2013 EVO X, man was it good to drive, I think i'm going to pick one up, but it's in no way a up to date engine tech. I believe their are ways to further improve response of turbochargers, just need for new ideas and R&D.

Such as technology progression, of twin turbo, twin scroll, sequential turbo, and Porsches variable ..?/ turbo and antilag (i know thats not street viable, but you get my idea).

I want to see reviews before coming to a conclusion
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Old 04-07-2013, 12:48 PM   #113
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The question is, does it feel laggy in the actual vehicle? That's going to depend a lot on the throttle and shift mapping. I wonder if it uses a Titanium Aluminide turbine wheel.

This AMG website has a little more info: http://www.mercedes-amg.com/engineer...?section=20l4c

details from that site:

-- closed deck aluminum block with various strengthening measures
-- 140bar max combustion pressure
-- low friction coating (what AMG has been calling "nanoslide" for a while)
-- forged crank, rod, pistons
-- extra crankcase ventilation/oil separation passages
-- sodium-filled exhaust valves
-- roller finger followers with hydraulic lash adjusters
-- dual variable cam phasers (AVCS)

-- air-to-water intercooler, 1.8 bar boost
-- looks like an oil cooler might be integrated into the low temperature cooling circuit
-- 200bar max fuel injection pressure w/ center-mounted piezo injector for spray-guided combustion
-- 8.6:1 compression ratio

fuel economy strategies
-- smart alternator control
-- start/stop
-- demand-controlled oil pump
-- meets Euro 6 emission standard
-- probably 2 cats total, although the pictures only show 1

Last edited by arghx7; 04-07-2013 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 04-07-2013, 01:02 PM   #114
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I want one...

I thought I was set on a GTR for my next car.

But now I am thinking about this CLA AMG45 or GT3 RS ( I live a mile away from a Porsche dealership)

Now all I need to do is get promoted to Chief (E7) and as always get my wifes permission .
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Old 04-07-2013, 04:09 PM   #115
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Nice find!

Truthfully, if you romp on a car in gear below 2000rpm you're doing it all wrong. That's what Macks are for.



I just sold my 2010 Evo X SE in November. Good power delivery for an OEM tune(we all know what happens with tuning that engine), but not as nice as what we're seeing for the MB.
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Old 04-07-2013, 08:53 PM   #116
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I find this special edition evo to be a pretty good deal. I was considering an Evo X before my Brz, but mitsubishi abandoned modernizing the 4b11 with direct injection and lightening the car.

http://www.311rs.com
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:11 PM   #117
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Originally Posted by punchjamesarnol View Post
I want one...

I thought I was set on a GTR for my next car.

But now I am thinking about this CLA AMG45 or GT3 RS ( I live a mile away from a Porsche dealership)

Now all I need to do is get promoted to Chief (E7) and as always get my wifes permission .
You must have an interesting budget...
GTR - $100,000
GT3 RS - $190,000
CLA45 - $50,000

If you can afford the other 2, why even think about this one? Seems like a big step down.
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Old 04-07-2013, 09:16 PM   #118
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Remember... To want is one thing (but I am speaking of used)... It would be nice if i could afford new though.


The car you drive is a big part of your lifestyle so which ever way I go it's gonna be a step in a new direction. I still have 4 kids which is a big factor.

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Old 04-07-2013, 10:54 PM   #119
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wow ,it took you 2 days to come up with this response??

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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
Who said I was talking about the engine? Could you at least explain why you're making so many assumptions?

That's what your post implies(engine is a mechanical part of the car you know)
if it's not about the engine than it still doesn't make sense lol



If you keep putting words in my mouth you're bound to hate me as much as you understandably hate yourself.

Could you at least explain why you're making so many assumptions?


Now your'e arguing with Scrappy about fake CF when you're the idiot who mentioned it in the first place.[*]CF, as used for interior trim pieces, is embedded in epoxy. Epoxy is plastic.

I see your reading comprehension is as low as Scrappy's(who's btw still thinking about a response to my post)..
The fact that you call me an idiot right away just shows me that you have no arguments and have to do it to make yourself feel better

I'm arguing the fact that THERE IS a BIG difference in quality of interior between REAL CF and a FAKE in the broader context of YOU claiming that both MB's and Mustang's interiors are same "plastic tubs" (because, of course, CF is just a basic plastic)
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Old 04-07-2013, 11:14 PM   #120
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wow ,it took you 2 days to come up with this response??
Busy weekend, I wasn't on NASIOC for 2 days.

Your response is even more inane than I had anticipated; staggering, really.
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:16 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
Busy weekend, I wasn't on NASIOC for 2 days.

Your response is even more inane than I had anticipated; staggering, really.
FAIL,

I "saw" you were reading news& rumors long after I posted
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Old 04-08-2013, 12:21 AM   #122
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Originally Posted by spaceywilly View Post

You must have an interesting budget...
GTR - $100,000
GT3 RS - $190,000
CLA45 - $50,000

If you can afford the other 2, why even think about this one? Seems like a big step down.
Guessing he means used GT-R. Don't know how that GT3 RS got thrown in there...

It's like saying, I'm choosing between a Maybach and an Accord. Gee I dunno.
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Old 04-08-2013, 07:34 AM   #123
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FAIL,

I "saw" you were reading news& rumors long after I posted
Yeah, I got to browse a bit.. but watching a 10mo child makes posting a low priority.

How much attention do you normally crave? I'm probably not worth stalking if you need it constantly.. you'll be disappointed. I haven't had a stalker in a while (that I know of), and I'm flattered... but for someone who claims my posts annoy him, you sure seem upset that I haven't posted more..

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Old 04-08-2013, 07:58 AM   #124
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I would have stalked you CJ, but I am too busy camping out in HTBS bushes.
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Old 04-08-2013, 08:37 AM   #125
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I would have stalked you CJ, but I am too busy camping out in HTBS bushes.
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