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Old 04-08-2013, 09:38 AM   #126
SCRAPPYDO
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something seems fishy about that torque curve. Not saying it is a lie or anything, but I find it difficult to imagine a small displacement engine, with low compression, and a big honk'n turbo having such a flat torque curve. I would wager some flattening has been done to that graph.

Even so, if it is only 70% true, that must be one FAST spooling and efficient turbo...
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:28 AM   #127
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
something seems fishy about that torque curve. Not saying it is a lie or anything, but I find it difficult to imagine a small displacement engine, with low compression, and a big honk'n turbo having such a flat torque curve. I would wager some flattening has been done to that graph.

Even so, if it is only 70% true, that must be one FAST spooling and efficient turbo...
This is definitely engine dyno data, so it's not directly comparable to a WRX on a dynojet. If you've never seen engine dyno horsepower testing, the engine is run at full load in a steady state for period of time in some rpm increment (maybe 400 or 500 rpm). Then they basically draw a line across the points. It's very controlled testing, but it's not the same loading as putting some car on rollers and slamming the gas in 4th gear.

It's undoubtedly a torque-based ECU (Subaru is a little behind the times). If you map it out to produce that kind of torque, that's what it's going to make. That doesn't mean it's not capable of more torque in that flat area. The flat curve is how it was tuned though. There are tunes of modern turbo engines with flat torque curves, at least according to published engine dyno data. I could post a bunch.

You have to remember that Daimler uses a very efficient combustion system, more advanced (and in many ways more expensive) than almost anything else available right now.
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Old 04-08-2013, 10:36 AM   #128
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I would have to agree. It appears they set a torque value and tuned it to be safe at that level. I have no doubt they could make it more peaky if they wanted to. It is still a hell of a turbo.

What would be really cool is to overlay a PSI line on that graph to see what the turbo is putting out.
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Old 04-17-2013, 01:11 PM   #129
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Quote:
Originally Posted by spaceywilly View Post
You must have an interesting budget...
GTR - $100,000
GT3 RS - $190,000
CLA45 - $50,000

If you can afford the other 2, why even think about this one? Seems like a big step down.
All on an E7's salary to boot. Must be the highest paid one in all the Military, has some cash laying around, or is just plain bad with money. If he buys the MB I know its the latter.
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:03 PM   #130
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I can't wait for the brabus version of this car I'm sure it will fulfill all tuning needs...
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Old 05-14-2013, 10:54 PM   #131
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You make plenty of good points and I don't mean to make it sound like I don't get what you're saying. I do.

I just don't see the point of buying an expensive car like this when the whole idea of a turbocharged 4 cylinder is that they're cheap to mod for big horsepower. AMG is making a pre-tuned tuner car for people who have money to buy real performance cars and I don't get the appeal.

I feel the same way about the S20x Imprezas.. but I see where they're value lies in countries where there are displacement-based taxation.. we don't have any such restrictions in the USA.. so why limit yourself to small engines when you don't need to if you aren't just a hardcore Subaru fanboi. The thing with this car, though.. is that the turbo 4 cylinder M-B fanbois are an even smaller subset in American culture.. so I just don't see who this car is for.

I may have looked at the '12 302 MSRP when I looked it up.. $40,310. When you consider the performance gap, it's no small difference.

I'm up for an argument.. but you've got to put in some effort. This is easily one of the dumbest things I've read on NASIOC. The Merc in question here doesn't even have a center differential... it's the equivalent of ActiveAWD found on Subaru's cheap 4EAT models and now on the CVTs. It's worthless in a performance environment and just good enough to qualify for an AWD badge on the rear bumper. The STI's DCCD will actually defy the car's horrible weight balance under WOT around a track... to say that "AWD is AWD" is just a display of complete ignorance on the subject.

Carbon fiber trim? There are clapped out Honda Civics with APC headlights and carbon fiber trim running around my neighborhood right now.. carbon fiber trim is an expensive cloth soaked in a plastic resin.. it's still ****ing plastic. The Mustang has good materials in the touch points and when you're at the track that's all that matters. I wouldn't expect someone who thinks all AWD systems are created equal to understand where I'm coming from, so lets just agree to disagree.

Nothing like daily driving a little 4 cylinder with a big turbo.. I guess all of those V8 AMG Mercs are horrible daily drivers as well, right? My friend that has let me drive his 302 on numerous occasions actually does daily drive his.

As for living in the Northeast.. yeesh.. I've got an inch of ice covered with a dusting of snow on my front yard right now and my local roads are steep, rough and winding. AWD fanbois who can't fathom snow tires on 2WD cars make me giggle.

Video Link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=STaximkaQxo
It does have a central diff...

http://www.autoguide.com/manufacture...view-1888.html

I remember you were telling me that Tennessee experiences winter driving conditions, I guess you can be wrong more than once.

Last edited by moonrider_99; 05-14-2013 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 05-15-2013, 09:18 AM   #132
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Quote:
Originally Posted by moonrider_99 View Post
It does have a central diff...

http://www.autoguide.com/manufacture...view-1888.html

I remember you were telling me that Tennessee experiences winter driving conditions, I guess you can be wrong more than once.
4Matic is M-B's generic term for AWD. The article even states that it has meant different types of AWD over time.
From the OP:
Quote:
The 4Matic system keeps the CLA AMG in front-wheel-drive mode during ‘normal' driving, but splits the power 50:50 when a swarm of bees descends upon your nether regions; a prop shaft transfers the 2.0-litre four-pot's power to the rear axle, via an electro-hydraulically controlled clutch.
Which means that the FWD-based CLA uses a haldex-like (or Active-AWD-like) PTU rather than a mechanical diff.


Wow.. bringing up the Tennessee thing again? Really? Do you just enjoy looking like a mouthbreathing vegetable with a keyboard?

While I've never lived in Tennessee.. I do live in a part of NC that borders Tennessee.. if you had any idea what a map did you could look at one and see what geological features are prominent along that border.. and if someone had every taught you what the climate is like on those features (I pity whatever school system shat you out) you'd understand that, yes.. Tennessee does see snow (several feet at a time).

Now.. stop trying to call out adults when you're clearly in possession of the mind of an infant.
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Old 05-15-2013, 02:45 PM   #133
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
4Matic is M-B's generic term for AWD. The article even states that it has meant different types of AWD over time.
From the OP:

Which means that the FWD-based CLA uses a haldex-like (or Active-AWD-like) PTU rather than a mechanical diff.

Wow.. bringing up the Tennessee thing again? Really? Do you just enjoy looking like a mouthbreathing vegetable with a keyboard?

While I've never lived in Tennessee.. I do live in a part of NC that borders Tennessee.. if you had any idea what a map did you could look at one and see what geological features are prominent along that border.. and if someone had every taught you what the climate is like on those features (I pity whatever school system shat you out) you'd understand that, yes.. Tennessee does see snow (several feet at a time).

Now.. stop trying to call out adults when you're clearly in possession of the mind of an infant.
Haha, I just wanted to mess with you because the TN comment was hilarious (I lived in Quebec and upstate NY for most of my many driving years where it snows everywhere for 6 months). By the way, pretty emotional reply for an adult writing back to a child, I guess it hurts not having everyone agree with you.

Anyhow, the point is 4matic family of drivetrains have a central diff and I don't see why the best version would not be in a AMG product. In this case, it's a clutch pack, how is that not a mechanical system? The New E class AMG is awd and it seems to be quite a joy to drive. It's not like Subaru has the monopoly on turbocharging and all wheel drive technology, MB has deep pockets and a lot of racing technology under the belt.

I would consider a CPO CLA 45 AMG in a few years.

Last edited by moonrider_99; 05-15-2013 at 07:39 PM.
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Old 05-15-2013, 03:32 PM   #134
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Old 05-19-2013, 10:17 PM   #135
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Too bad it sounds like ****...
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:43 AM   #136
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I like the misfire sound on the shifts (probably an ignition cut to force engine speed to drop)... but yeah, sounds a lot like a cheap droning exhaust on an inline 4.
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Old 05-20-2013, 07:10 PM   #137
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yeah, and that's why you can't just say "ohh who cares how many cylinders it has if it performs great" The kind of people who can afford these types of cars when they are new do care. Intangibles like the sound and character of the engine do matter for this market.
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Old 05-20-2013, 08:16 PM   #138
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$50000 for that engine note?
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:09 PM   #139
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Len View Post
I'm beginning to think that AMG > M. ~360HP out of 2L is just insane. And recent AMG products all have great chassis to go with the motor. I'd love me an E63 AMG.
isnt that what a stage 2 jdm sti makes?
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Old 05-21-2013, 12:29 AM   #140
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isnt that what a stage 2 jdm sti makes?
Of course you can look at tuned cars that has even higher specific output, but that's apples to oranges. The AMG comes with full factory warranty, and the reputation of the brand that is riding on this uber 4pot is nothing to scoff at. Let's keep the comparison among factory cars.
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Old 05-21-2013, 01:31 PM   #141
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thats my point, since every engine in these cars are hand build by a single person, stand to reason that they are dyno tuned for optimum output and not just some run of the mil fit for all tune. i was just replying to the comment about 350hp out of a 2l is insane where its nothing new and if for example subaru decided to tune every single sti it would be the same.
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Old 05-21-2013, 04:06 PM   #142
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaomega0 View Post
thats my point, since every engine in these cars are hand build by a single person, stand to reason that they are dyno tuned for optimum output and not just some run of the mil fit for all tune. i was just replying to the comment about 350hp out of a 2l is insane where its nothing new and if for example subaru decided to tune every single sti it would be the same.
Hand built by an engine builder does not mean they do custom tunes on it.

A factory engine is over engineered for it's advertised power output for reliability and durability.

The stock STi engine is rated @ ~300hp and engineered for ~400hp.

the AMG engine rated at 350hp probably is engineered for 500hp or greater (knowing the Germans always over engineer).

A stage 2 STi needs large catless downpipe and catback. The AMG will deliver that kind of power with small restrictive factory exhaust that meets emissions.

Not even the same league
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Old 05-22-2013, 02:32 PM   #143
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It seems like there is a lot of hate out there for MB vehicles and their reliability. Are they really that bad? I mean I've heard of the issues with Audi/VW and BMW, and they are so widespread that not only have I had personal issues with Audi/VW, but so have people I know. I've heard mixed reviews on BMW. Some say they are great and others have had issues.

Strangely, I have not heard the same thing about MB. Everyone I know that has owned them has had a great experience with them all. This is the first time I've heard widespread dissatisfaction regarding their vehicles. When it comes to the AMG line, everyone I know that has owned one has had nothing but great things to say.

Am I way off course? I can see the issues with the factory produced cars, but when they hand build the AMG lines, I can't see as many issues coming up.
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Old 05-22-2013, 02:41 PM   #144
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I assume this is the engine that it's rumoured Nissan is contemplating using in their next Z car? If so they should ditch that VQ engine ASAP and get to the table with MB.
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Old 05-22-2013, 03:31 PM   #145
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fourmicah, the early MBs in my family were very solid cars.. the more recent (10yo) cars have constantly dealt with electronic issues. Lots of failing sensors throwing CELs. I've heard that they've improved since then, but that part of my family (that bought MBs) hasn't been going back.
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Old 05-22-2013, 04:36 PM   #146
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My brother has a E350 wagon. Gorgeous looking car. 15K on it, two dead ignition coils and whole new rear suspention. The self leveling sensors went out.

The S class has 7 or 8 fuse boxes.

Peace,

Greg
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Old 05-23-2013, 12:33 PM   #147
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Originally Posted by Calamity Jesus View Post
fourmicah, the early MBs in my family were very solid cars.. the more recent (10yo) cars have constantly dealt with electronic issues. Lots of failing sensors throwing CELs. I've heard that they've improved since then, but that part of my family (that bought MBs) hasn't been going back.

Interesting, thanks for the reply. I guess we'll see what happens but for their sake, I hope they fixed the issues.

It seems funny that the only luxury car manufacturer that isn't plaqued with some kind of issue is Lexus. You'd think with all they have on the line, the last thing they would want people to see is their cars along the side of the road broken down.
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Old 05-23-2013, 12:43 PM   #148
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Infiniti has a pretty good rep too.
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Old 05-23-2013, 08:39 PM   #149
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alphaomega0 View Post
thats my point, since every engine in these cars are hand build by a single person, stand to reason that they are dyno tuned for optimum output and not just some run of the mil fit for all tune. i was just replying to the comment about 350hp out of a 2l is insane where its nothing new and if for example subaru decided to tune every single sti it would be the same.
Remember, they need to make the car handle all the crap people are going to put on it along with vta bovs and other trinkets without having it blow up and get brought back in under a warranty claim.
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Old 05-24-2013, 02:04 AM   #150
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So MB can put forged internals in and meet emissions but Subaru can't?

So MB can build an AWD system that can run only on the front wheels for commuting and fuel sipping but Subaru can't?

Ok.
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