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Old 04-23-2013, 03:14 PM   #76
OrbitalEllipses
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I'll pour out an OE for your Koni shock tonight.
I do have time for that!
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Old 04-23-2013, 09:19 PM   #77
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Yeah, that's what I meant - I've known those as kick plates.

Next time I'll be more specific. Where'd you get your "bling bling bitches?" Lol.

Thanks. They look like a fun & solid extravagance for the price.
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Old 04-23-2013, 10:04 PM   #78
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Yeah, that's what I meant - I've known those as kick plates.

Next time I'll be more specific. Where'd you get your "bling bling bitches?" Lol.

Thanks. They look like a fun & solid extravagance for the price.
Smartass. They're very pretty and will match my pedals (anodized black, machined holes) except my pedals don't have a machined trim ring. Thinking I might send them back to SRP and have the trim ring machined, but that seems like a hassle.

PM me for a discount code.
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Old 04-25-2013, 12:43 AM   #79
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Smartass. They're very pretty and will match my pedals (anodized black, machined holes) except my pedals don't have a machined trim ring. Thinking I might send them back to SRP and have the trim ring machined, but that seems like a hassle.

PM me for a discount code.
Who me? Hah.

Thanks. I'm wondering if they'll look out of place without the matching pedals. Hrmmm.
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Old 04-26-2013, 11:08 PM   #80
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No. You can barely see the pedals from the vantage point where you'd see the door runners (I'm going to call them something new each post!) as your getting in/sitting down.


FINALLY installed my TiC solid steering rack bushings. Pretty damn easy install. Steering wheel is slightly off center now Dat factory alignment, yo!
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Old 04-27-2013, 02:50 AM   #81
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No. You can barely see the pedals from the vantage point where you'd see the door runners (I'm going to call them something new each post!) as your getting in/sitting down.


FINALLY installed my TiC solid steering rack bushings. Pretty damn easy install. Steering wheel is slightly off center now Dat factory alignment, yo!

My biggest complaint with my Toyobaru is the e-assisted steering. I've considered the exact upgrades you have made, spings, koni inserts and those Ti solid bushings!

Are you able to feel the road now or is it still numb? Also which of the three do you think helps the most (I'm not a racer just grew up with cars driving cars where I knew the road from the steering wheel.)

thanks
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Old 04-27-2013, 05:44 PM   #82
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My biggest complaint with my Toyobaru is the e-assisted steering. I've considered the exact upgrades you have made, spings, koni inserts and those Ti solid bushings!

Are you able to feel the road now or is it still numb? Also which of the three do you think helps the most (I'm not a racer just grew up with cars driving cars where I knew the road from the steering wheel.)

thanks
Springs and Konis never went on due to the leaking Koni being sent back for replacement, so I can't comment on that.

Steering: only 100 miles on the bushings, but turn in is crisper and snappier. I can't comment on numbness; people allege that the steering feels great stock. I still contend it's numb as crap from the factory. The solid bushings don't make a HUGE impact there either. I'd say you can tell something's different about the steering, but if you didn't know I did the bushings then you couldn't tell me what was different. I'm also not a racer so my feedback on "feeling the road" may not be that useful as I'm still learning about the car, chassis, and feedback to the driver.

It was a super easy install, totally worth $40 or however much I paid in the group buy.
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:27 PM   #83
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Has anyone (in the twins' forum-o-sphere) attempted disconnecting the power steering motor and comparing feel yet?
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:46 PM   #84
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Has anyone (in the twins' forum-o-sphere) attempted disconnecting the power steering motor and comparing feel yet?
I haven't but I've thought about it. I can imagine it wouldn't be too bad as it's so light. I converted my mustang to manual steer and it's a tank. But the only time it was difficult was leaving Starbucks with no cup holders...
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Old 04-27-2013, 07:47 PM   #85
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Did it in my Integra too, but that wasn't on purpose. Accessory belt committed suicide. Still, wasn't so bad, and that's fwd.
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Old 04-28-2013, 01:09 AM   #86
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Can't t the steering be adjusted software wise?
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Old 04-28-2013, 01:18 AM   #87
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I shudder to think what unassisted steering would be like. If it was DESIGNED as a manual rack it'd feel fine, but power assisted racks converted to manual always suck some hard dick.
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Old 04-28-2013, 11:16 AM   #88
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In a traditional hydraulic system, you're still pushing hydraulic fluid around whenever you steer once you've disconnected the pump.

There shouldn't be any major drag from the motor.. at least not that I can think of.

The quick ratio would probably be the limiting factor.. a factory manual rack would probably be a slower ratio to make turning it a bit easier.
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Old 04-28-2013, 12:08 PM   #89
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I shudder to think what unassisted steering would be like. If it was DESIGNED as a manual rack it'd feel fine, but power assisted racks converted to manual always suck some hard dick.
That's because the power racks have a quicker ratio since they can get away with it without needing more effort. But a good rack/pinion converted to manual isn't so bad. The rack in my old Mustang is a POS but I could still drive the car without the assist. I'm thinking the lightness of this car would really help with the steering effort.
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Old 04-28-2013, 03:02 PM   #90
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Old 04-29-2013, 10:59 AM   #91
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Originally Posted by OrbitalEllipses View Post
I shudder to think what unassisted steering would be like. If it was DESIGNED as a manual rack it'd feel fine, but power assisted racks converted to manual always suck some hard dick.
Most of the SpecE30 racers, including myself, run a power assisted rack converted to manual, and I think it feels great. We remove the pump and lines compeletely and then cycle the system multiple times to remove most of the fluid from the rack and then plug the fittings on the rack.
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Old 04-29-2013, 11:45 AM   #92
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Most of the SpecE30 racers, including myself, run a power assisted rack converted to manual, and I think it feels great. We remove the pump and lines compeletely and then cycle the system multiple times to remove most of the fluid from the rack and then plug the fittings on the rack.
I've not driven a manual rack sports car, but I've driven a hydraulic assisted rack where the belt's gone out as well as a manual rack equipped Civic. Neither time did I enjoy it. With the fluid out I assume it feels better/is more manageable, but I reserve judgement on our units until I drive one that's been converted.
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Old 04-29-2013, 11:50 AM   #93
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The non-M3 E30s also have a lock-to-lock of 3.5 turns.. vs the BRZ's 2.5. The effort would still be much higher on a BRZ.
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Old 04-29-2013, 11:57 AM   #94
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CJ, learn me. Why would you want more turns lock-to-lock? Isn't fast steering what we want? Is subjective "feel" through the steering SO great that it overrides steering quickness?

In any case, not happening on a DD.
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Old 04-29-2013, 03:01 PM   #95
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The only problem with manual racks is tight turns at very low speeds (parking lots). You need to use some muscle to turn the wheel wheel while at a stop, making parking lot maneuvering more difficult. The system in the BRZ, being speed sensitive, is mostly unassisted at highway speeds anyway.

Yeah, don't let a hydraulic system without a belt be your only example of a manual rack.

I've driven a 2500lb '80 320i with coilovers and fat hoosiers that had lighter steering than most cars despite a manual rack.. because the owner had tuned the steering specifically for autocross. There's actually a tensioner on some manual racks that prevents them from being 'too easy' to turn to make them feel more stable.

Faster ratios are great for making quicker turns with less input, but they make those low speed maneuvers even harder. Lets get one thing straight, turns lock-to-lock and steering ratio are different. You can have a drift car with the tie-rod arm (part of the knuckle that the tie-rod attaches to) shortened that has 2.5 turns lock-to-lock the same as a BRZ, but the front wheels may be turned 20 further at lock..


It looks like the BRZ's steering ratio is 13.1:1 with the 2.5 turns lock-to-lock.

This means that turning the wheel from center to lock is 1.25 turns (half of the total lock-to-lock)... so that's 450 at the steering wheel and 34.4 at the front wheels.

If we took our drift car example, it's getting 54.4 from the same 1.25 turns of the steering wheel which is a 8.27:1 ratio. Drift cars are modified this way to keep the front wheels in grip despite huge drift angles. If you drift beyond your front steering you're just going to spin out.



A change from 13.1:1 to 8.27:1 would increase the effort to steer by 37%.. which is why drift cars use power steering. Actually, sprint cars, like the World of Outlaws series, spend a great deal of their time driving completely sideways on dirt and use a giant power steering pump that the driveshaft goes through... right between the driver's legs.




Mind blowing stuff, btw.. watch it in person if you get a chance.

Anyway, getting back on topic.. turns lock-to-lock doesn't necessarily dictate how far the wheels are turning or what the actual steering ratio is.. it just tells you how the steering wheel is geared in relation to the rack. Turns lock-to-lock is a decent indicator of how far you'll need to crank the wheel to navigate a 90 turn on the street.. we like faster ratios because we can keep both hands on the wheel for nearly all performance driving.. rather than shuffling or hand-over-handing the wheel for tight turns (such as autocrossing).

Now, the BRZ's rack is plenty quick enough.. A Formula Ford race car uses a 13.1:1 ratio.. but that car is so light that no power assist is needed. Power assist requires the movement of a valve (hydraulic) or switch/rheostat (electric) to work.. which means that the steering wheel can move slightly independently of the rack, which dampens a lot of feel. Feel is actually the buzz that you get through the wheel as you encounter different road surfaces (or lack thereof for ice ) and approach the tire's limits. You can feel an amazing amount of useful information through the steering wheel with a manual rack.

Now.. wait.. if the assisted rack has that movement built in.. how does converting a rack help? Well, there might be a little on-center vagueness as the two shafts of the steering column aren't in direct contact.. but as soon as you start to turn and put pressure on a tie-rod, they'll be metal-to-metal and communicating. For a thorough job, you weld up the control valve.


So.. I used to own an '81 320i with the manual rack suspended in some hard urethane bushings. It weighed about 2600lbs and had a near 50:50 weight distribution. You'd think driving such a car around in the winter would have been tricky.. bit it wasn't. I always knew how much grip was available from the feel of the steering wheel. The biggest wake-up call to this fact, for me, was when I encountered black ice. The steering went from the slight reassuring buzz of tread on pavement to nothing.. it felt like the car had gone airborne. The slightest turn of the wheel resulted in nothing happening.. just sliding straight ahead. If that same scenario occurs in a car with assisted steering.. I don't know it until I attempt to turn, brake or accelerate. I much prefer and miss the steering feel of that car. Yeah, using all of my muscles (I was a skinny kid) to turn the car into a parking space wasn't exactly fun.. but then why should parking be fun.

Last edited by Calamity Jesus; 04-29-2013 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:04 PM   #96
OrbitalEllipses
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I know lock to lock and steering ratio isn't the same! Cmon man, I said learn me, not diss me!

Good explanation thanks, buddy!
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Old 04-29-2013, 04:42 PM   #97
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Thanks CJ. I love pictures!
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Old 04-29-2013, 07:30 PM   #98
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because pictars

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Old 04-29-2013, 07:39 PM   #99
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What's the name of the wheel color? Stance is clean. I see there's another FT-86 in the corner.
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Old 04-29-2013, 07:50 PM   #100
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What's the name of the wheel color? Stance is clean. I see there's another FT-86 in the corner.
Uh, no idea. I picked it off a color palette.

It was a Twins meet. It's on the front page of that forum.
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