Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Wednesday April 16, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-13-2013, 07:16 PM   #151
herairk
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 346050
Join Date: Feb 2013
Location: Placerville
Vehicle:
2013 Wrx
Pearl White

Default

I don't know about y'all I started saving for my maxwell power shortblock (powerfactor ss). If my engine goes bad in the future. I will be purchasing from them. Ive read around here and they seem to be the guys to go to.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
herairk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2013, 07:18 PM   #152
Kinjirra
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 258345
Join Date: Sep 2010
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Charles Town, WV
Vehicle:
2013 WRX
Plasma Blue

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
basically.

But overall it's about heat load and the ability of the oil to hold up to the heat load and maintain viscosity at the higher heat loads.
Sorry forgot to tie that in. Limited capacity means more heat load on the oil in there. Enter oil cooler to help make up for lack of oil and help the oil deal with the heat better.
Kinjirra is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2013, 08:08 PM   #153
danger1138
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 279525
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: QUEENS NY
Vehicle:
04 rex luger!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sneeky Pete View Post

Bigger is not better? Heh...
Look it up, bigger is not alwAys better when it comes to the oil pump. I 4got why though. Somebody help me out..
danger1138 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-13-2013, 09:07 PM   #154
Sneeky Pete
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 97745
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Chicago-Subs
Vehicle:
2005 OBXT 5spd red
05 OB Lmited Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by danger1138 View Post

Look it up, bigger is not alwAys better when it comes to the oil pump. I 4got why though. Somebody help me out..
Id like to hear it from the man, I didn't say I didn't beleive it, my play on words may have been misleading, but I was just tossn a lil pun in the intrest of further input on the subject.
Sneeky Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 01:08 AM   #155
Maxwell Power
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 190729
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Marysville, WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
sir, welcome.

Do NOT get an 11mm pump.

The biggest mistake that people make is they think they need to open up the bearing clearances to some value or use larger clearance than stock bearings.
This just isn't true.

I believe I stated this earlier in the thread, but I'll say it again.
Used blocks always come up with very very large main bearing clearances when using most aftermarket bearings in STD size (upwards of 4 thou in many that we've checked). I honestly haven't measured any using stock OEM bearings so I don't know what they are coming out after a lot of use. So when people use King XP or ACL HX bearings, those clearances open up to 5 or 6 thou on the mains. Add in some crank polishing and we're talking another .5 thou giving you 5.5 to 6.5 thou main bearing clearance. Goodbye rod bearing oil pressure, hello failure!
That clearance is too big regardless of what oil pump and oil you use. If you were to find an oil pump big enough with a thick enough oil (90wt?) you'd never get any lubrication to your valve train.

People often lose sight of what the rest of the engine needs. They frequently get too hung up on rod bearing clearances and forget about mains, cams, buckets etc.

The main bearing clearance is the most important clearance in the engine. This is what I have figured out in my hundreds of engine builds. We pay extremely close attention to mains and rods and this is why we have zero bearing failures.

Running too large of an oil pump is death to your engine as well. I've had to fix a lot of engines where people put 11mm pumps on stock bottom ends and ate the bearings up by feeding them aerated, sheared, hot oil from being run at relief pressure their entire life of only 100hrs (Normally Aspirated EJ25's and EJ20's). One of the most important things to realize with these engines: They aren't V8's.

covered the pump question a couple pages back.
Maxwell Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 10:20 AM   #156
Sneeky Pete
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 97745
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Chicago-Subs
Vehicle:
2005 OBXT 5spd red
05 OB Lmited Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post

covered the pump question a couple pages back.
Thanks, I appriciate the feedback, I didn't relize you had addressed it in this thread. My bad. These ej25's seem prone to bearing failure commen sence says its a friction issue, I figured more oil couldn't be a bad thing. Never claimed to know it all, and that's why I troll places like this =)
Sneeky Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 10:57 AM   #157
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

I'm not certain yet but the engine I bought to replace the 2.5L that spun a bearing when I opened this thread sounds to also have rod knock.

I could be mistaken, I might have a timing belt cover that's rattling or something but it sounds oh so terribly familiar.

Here are a couple snippets from my test drive around the block last night. It's definitely pulling timing right where I hear the noise which is not a good sign. I reduced the low-load timing by a couple degrees and didn't get any detected knock around the block but the audible noise was louder and so I parked it right back in the garage, I didn't even pull out of my street.

If this engine I just bought has failed, I will most likely part out my car and never own another turbo subaru again folks.



BrandonDrums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 02:05 PM   #158
2gnt2wrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 123625
Join Date: Aug 2006
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Waukesha, WI
Vehicle:
2002 wrx
vf34 Tuned at Cobb

Default

In your map, at what RPM do you have your knock sensor set to start listening? Looks like it is right around 3000rpm. I would dial it back and see it is actually starting earlier than what is showing in your log.
2gnt2wrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 02:07 PM   #159
Maxwell Power
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 190729
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Marysville, WA
Default

IF the noise is loud enough, the ecu will pick it up thinking it's knock.
Maxwell Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 07:24 PM   #160
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2gnt2wrx View Post
In your map, at what RPM do you have your knock sensor set to start listening? Looks like it is right around 3000rpm. I would dial it back and see it is actually starting earlier than what is showing in your log.
I have it set to 1050 rpm

BrandonDrums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 09:18 PM   #161
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Dumped the oil tonight and yup...metal flake. Another one bit the dust.

It made the noise softly when I first started it up, I thought it was just an exhaust heat shield rattle because my luck wouldn't be that bad right?

It was dead on delivery. Back to square negative a little chunk of change.

I'm considering parting it out, it's a shame because everything else is in such good shape. I just can't dump more money on this thing.

Anyone in the market for a red 05 wagon with a sweet suspension setup and 2 EJ257 engines with spun bearings?
BrandonDrums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-14-2013, 10:55 PM   #162
Spec R
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 187752
Join Date: Aug 2008
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Hollywood, CA
Vehicle:
99 RS/X5/Volt

Default

sucks. sorry to hear, that really is a bummer.
Spec R is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 12:14 PM   #163
Sneeky Pete
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 97745
Join Date: Oct 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Chicago-Subs
Vehicle:
2005 OBXT 5spd red
05 OB Lmited Black

Default

After closer inspection of my block I noticed the torched bearing in mine is giving nearly a half inch of play in the rod, I'm fearing how bad of shape the cranks in and doubting the validity of the block its self. I'm leaning towards a stock replacement shortblock as the cost of the rebuild is not far from the cost of a new one.

Cough, any quote's on a slightly better then stock replacment for relavent cost? Cough...
Sneeky Pete is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-15-2013, 02:05 PM   #164
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Looks like I'm actually going to rebuild....again instead of parting out the car. Just doesn't make sense still to get rid of it. The car is in great shape and I found a great machine shop with lots of Porsche/aircooled VW and subaru experience not to far from me that will rebuild my previous engine which has forged slugs in it at a reasonable price.

Depending on the final cost, I might go ahead and have the engine I just bought rebuilt so I have something complete to sell and I could get most of my money back out of it that way.

We shall see.

Last edited by BrandonDrums; 03-18-2013 at 02:21 PM.
BrandonDrums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 10:23 PM   #165
AlaskanSubieFan
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 352358
Join Date: Apr 2013
Default 10w30

Quote:
Originally Posted by car_freak85 View Post
So what do you put in YOUR subaru?
i put 10w30 in my 95 subie impreza l model. it's got 1.8l engine but the mileage is almost 212k, i rev this beast all the time - except when i first start it up - and i never drive it without waiting 2 minutes for the engine to warm up a bit...
AlaskanSubieFan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-07-2013, 11:31 PM   #166
Mowin8603
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 155415
Join Date: Jul 2007
Default

I bought an 07' Sti with basic bolt ons and had it 2 weeks.. 1000 miles.. blew it up doing a burn out. Pretty sure its a spun rod bearing. After waiting 5 months the motor is finally out. Should be going to the machine shop this week. Can not wait to get this done!
Mowin8603 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 12:33 PM   #167
Bryan18
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 141238
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Somewhere, MA
Vehicle:
2006 STi
Crystal Gray Metallic

Default

I notice not alot of people run Royal Purple. Ive run RP 5w30 for two years now on my 06 sti with no problem. I chanhe every 3000k. Anyone else runnning Royal Purple Fully synthetic?
Bryan18 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 12:49 PM   #168
Nutrients
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 346825
Join Date: Feb 2013
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Somewhere in the SWIC
Vehicle:
2009 WRX
OBP

Default

Mine went due to a cracked ringland on a 500 mile drive 200 miles from the destination, we had just gotten out of the middle of nowhere (literally, straight desert). Lost all my oil, rod bearing went, engine seized on the offramp when I exited because I heard the noise of death. Had been on vacation for 2 weeks, had my car full of all of my stuff, and all my girlfriends stuff, and class to attend the next day. Had to rent a car to make it to class and get my stuff home. I'm under 25 so it cost me a leg...I also had to get another rental to get back to the car after the block was rebuilt.

Great week lol.
Nutrients is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 04:14 PM   #169
danger1138
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 279525
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: QUEENS NY
Vehicle:
04 rex luger!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nutrients View Post
Mine went due to a cracked ringland on a 500 mile drive 200 miles from the destination, we had just gotten out of the middle of nowhere (literally, straight desert). Lost all my oil, rod bearing went, engine seized on the offramp when I exited because I heard the noise of death. Had been on vacation for 2 weeks, had my car full of all of my stuff, and all my girlfriends stuff, and class to attend the next day. Had to rent a car to make it to class and get my stuff home. I'm under 25 so it cost me a leg...I also had to get another rental to get back to the car after the block was rebuilt.

Great week lol.
I dread scenarios like that...
danger1138 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-09-2013, 05:37 PM   #170
Nutrients
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 346825
Join Date: Feb 2013
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Somewhere in the SWIC
Vehicle:
2009 WRX
OBP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by danger1138 View Post

I dread scenarios like that...
I'm honestly kind of afraid to drive long distances now I check my oil almost every time I get out of my car. Had it happened literally 20 minutes before I wouldn't have even had cell service to call Triple A
Nutrients is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-12-2013, 10:31 PM   #171
SlimJim8804
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 241943
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NNJ
Vehicle:
2065 Magic Carpet
Swirl Rally Bleu

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
This thread is mostly about spun bearings on stock motors with bolt-ons. For that reason most of my points refer to those cars.

When stating 4th gear pulls I was referring to 5MT WRXs. I don't do 4th gear pulls on the dyno, I refuse too unless they're over 450whp. 6MT cars are 4th gear pulls on the dyno.
My reasons:
1. They are soooooo long and the load is so high
2. The engines can't handle it because of #3
3. The oil system is too small
4. 3rd gear goes to 95mph. If I'm tuning for faster than that on a street car, how representative is my tune going to be?
5. IAT sensor placement is detrimental to our engines in high gears.
If you're doing over 95 on the highway full throttle... I got nothing for you.

Let's touch on those above points a little more:
1. Speaks for itself
2. The engines are not designed for that kind of sustained load. The piston materials, ring gaps etc are not designed to do Stage 3 power levels for that long.
3. Less than five quarts. How many cars have about 5 quarts of oil? Almost all of them. The 160hp cars, the 135hp cars, the 225hp cars, I4, I6, V8 and V6 all have about 5 quarts of oil. Does this make sense if you do some math taking into account the specific heat capacity of oil and the power level of these cars? No it doesn't. So why do they all use about 5 quarts? Why do Porsche and BMW and diesels all have closer to 10qts or more?
Answer:
25-30hp is all it takes to push a car at about 65mph down the highway. You need about 5 quarts to handle that heat load. Ever wonder why once the car gets about 1/2 qt low on oil the level drops faster and faster and faster? The reason is that you are exceeding the heat capacity of the remaining oil. As the oil gets hotter more of it becomes entrained in the PCV system and is carried into the engine and burnt off. My mom used to tell me the could "smell when [her] truck was low on oil". This is the exact reason.

Porsche, BMW and Diesel trucks are designed around heavy loads on the oil systems. Thus the higher oil volumes. The rest of the manufacturers assume the car is a daily driver. Porsche knows their cars are usually toy cars. This is why the Subaru manual states "For heavy duty use, use thicker oil" They understand that if you are doing "heavy duty" tasks, you need more protection. Many thicker oils also have a higher heat capacity and the higher viscosity helps keep oil from carrying over into the pcv system, minimizing burn off.

IAT location:
Subaru screwed all of us... in so many ways. The biggest one is our IAT sensor located in the MAF. Total bone job.
Let's follow that air path:
1. Filter
2. MAF/IAT
3. Turbo
4. Intercooler
5. Intake manifold
6. Cylinders

Now lets look at the temperatures:
1. Potentially ambient
2. same
3. Heated by turbo under boost
4. Cooled by intercooler
5. Warmed by intake manifold
6. Heated by combustion chamber

How much does the turbo heat the air? Well it depends on boost level, compressor efficiency etc. So there is no way to know for sure.

How much does the intercooler cool the air? Well that depends on intercooler construction(dimensions, volume, core size, fin density), intercooler location and available airflow as well as the difference in temperature from the charge air to the cross flow air. So no way to know.

How much does intake manifold heat the air? Those values are known and programmed into the ecu unless you add spacers or remove coolant from the throttle body.

How much does the chamber affect it? Those values are somewhat known.
So what's the last place we can take a reading and get the best representation of air entering the engine? Post intercooler.

What happens to the engine during a 4th gear pull? Intercooler gets hot, exhaust gets hot, air entering the engine bay gets colder as speed increases. Air entering the MAF reads colder as speed increases. However, as the intercooler heat soaks, the air entering the engine gets hotter. SO now the ecu is doing the OPPOSITE of what it should be doing. As temp drops, it adds timing when in fact, it should be removing timing to protect the engine.

Ever wonder why so many of my customers tell me they spun a rod while trying for a top speed run?

Oil capacity,
IAT location.
Excellent clarification. Thanks for posting.
SlimJim8804 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2013, 09:57 AM   #172
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post

What happens to the engine during a 4th gear pull? Intercooler gets hot, exhaust gets hot, air entering the engine bay gets colder as speed increases. Air entering the MAF reads colder as speed increases. However, as the intercooler heat soaks, the air entering the engine gets hotter. SO now the ecu is doing the OPPOSITE of what it should be doing. As temp drops, it adds timing when in fact, it should be removing timing to protect the engine.

Ever wonder why so many of my customers tell me they spun a rod while trying for a top speed run?

Oil capacity,
IAT location.
Just a thought, why not use the speed dependent timing tables to counter this scenario?
BrandonDrums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2013, 05:01 PM   #173
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Whoops sorry, that's a fueling and boost control option. I don't think that's a timing control option.

In any case, you can reduce the max WGDC thusly reducing the boost depending on vehicle speed and I think you can increase some fueling additive by vehicle speed too.

I'm going to go home and check the tables and see what you can do. Could be that reducing boost over 100mph and adding a tad bit of fuel could counter the issues Max brings up.
BrandonDrums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 04-30-2013, 05:39 PM   #174
Maxwell Power
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 190729
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Marysville, WA
Default

you can't do that. I don't know what tables you're talking about, but USDM wrx's do not have tables like that.
Maxwell Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-08-2013, 08:16 PM   #175
nate_fisher
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 270482
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: albany ny
Vehicle:
2011 forester xt
corn fed td06 20g 8cm

Default

Just got a used block off my friend who spun a rod bearing with plans to build it as a spare. I only paid the price of shipping and after he took it apart and took pictures all the pistons were intact as well as the rings all the cylinder walls were spot on but the rod bearing had damaged the crank. The block it self and mains all look perfect is there something I should do as a precaution when building this just incase? Should I have a machine shop test it or is there anything in the building process that should be done after a rod bearing failure? It is just a bare block I had him take all the guts out to save on shipping since I will be replacing it all with forged and upgraded pieces anyway?
nate_fisher is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 08:13 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.