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Old 04-14-2013, 12:30 PM   #1
jaycanode
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Default EJ25 swap to VW Bus Limp Modes?

Spent a long cold winter swapping a 2000 EJ25 from a AT Outback to a 1974 VW Bay Window Bus. VSS from Smallcar, stock ECU and loom, stripped vapor canister and purge valve. Did everything myself including loom. This car ran great before the swap. Bus fired up first time after swap albeit with some codes and mysterious running issues.

Main issue is what sounds like running in "limp mode". It idles very smooth and steady. When I am sitting still and attempt to rev up, it cuts off at about 2800 rpm and will rev no higher. If I keep accelerator in the same position it will just rythmically go up to 2500-3000rpm and, like fuel is being cut, (or?) its goes back down to 1500. Same behavior rolling on the road. Does this sound like limp/failsafe mode?

Also becomes difficult to start once engine has warmed up.

Codes I get are:

P0336 (Crankshaft Sensor)
P0183 Fuel Temp
P0443 Purge Valve
P1507 Idle Control System Malfunction (Fail Safe) (((This is a Intermittent Code)))))
P1116 Engine Torque Control Cut Signal Circuit Low Input
P1722 Auto Trans Diagnosis Input Signal High Input

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Old 04-14-2013, 12:35 PM   #2
jaycanode
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MOVED FROM NEWBIE THREAD>>>>
69subaru360
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The ECU is looking for a signal from the TCU. You need to ground the AT/MT id pin at the ECU.

Fuel temp you need to add in the sensor, it's a little thing that sits on the fuel sending unit.

Idle control be sure it's clean and not sticking and the throttle isn't hanging open a bit.

Purge valve, you'll need to add it in and wire it up even if it doesn't do anything. You might be able to measure the resistance of it and add a resistor in the harness in place of it.

Crank sensor, should be able to just follow the manual to diagnose it.
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Old Today, 10:27 AM #4
jaycanode
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Thanks for reply 360. After hundreds of hours researching this ECU setup, it seems that pin B26 which is neutral safety switch should be left open and this era ECU does not have an AT/MT pin? Or at least there is not a lead for it. General consensus is there is an AT Ecu and a different model ECU for MT on 2000 EJ25's. (Unlike other years that share UCU's)

Also general consensus is this engine does not need Fuel Temp sensor to run properly. A CEL light maybe but no performance issues.

Will check IAC for cleanliness.

Purge Valve also not needed as I am running W/o Cannister.

Will test Crank Sensor.

Is there any info concerning what exactly limp mode is? Is it different symptoms for each system? Does my case sound like limp mode?

Thanks.
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Old 04-14-2013, 06:31 PM   #3
philikon
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Sounds like limp mode to me. Culprit is most likely the Crankshaft sensor code (P0336).
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Old 04-14-2013, 09:33 PM   #4
jaycanode
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Replaced CPS and engine ran great. Popped wheelies even, very stoked.

BUT...when warm the bus refuses to start. If by chance it does catch and start it idles and runs just fine. Just hard or no start once engine block has warmed. This is perplexing as well. Any ideas anyone?

If I unplug MAP it will start albeit in a rough limp-like mode.

Still throws Fuel Temp sensor code and Purge valve codes but I am choosing to ignore these as they supposedly just emissions related.

Still throws 1116 and 1722 transmission codes.
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Old 04-15-2013, 10:50 PM   #5
Charlie-III
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What fuel pump are you using? Sorta sounds like vaporlock where the fuel in the lines gets warm and the engine is getting mostly air and little fuel.

To overcome this, most cars, for years, have the fuel pump in the tank to keep the lines full, even if they get warm.

Running the fuel line near a heat source can make this worse.
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Old 04-16-2013, 03:39 PM   #6
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Look up "coolant temp sensor" or "CTS" on here. When that thing fails, it's hard to start the engine when warm. It happened on my swap, and when searching, I found that it was pretty common.

Jacob
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:20 PM   #7
jaycanode
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Might as well keep this going as the saga continues and I am pretty frustrated.

Thanks for the replys. i have ruled out CTS because it is stubborn to start in all temps but especially warm. When warm, and when I say warm...barely warm like running for 5 minutes at idle warm.

Ruled out fuel pump and vapor lock because there is no possible way gas is vaporizing right now. Temps in Colorado are barely above freezing. I have a Walbro high flow pump FYI.

Its gotta be ignition. Tests have shown irregular or non existent ignition pulses into ignitor/coil. Again though, the crazy thing....it runs like a champ once it starts.

Looking for shorts now. Argh.
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycanode View Post
Might as well keep this going as the saga continues and I am pretty frustrated.

Thanks for the replys. i have ruled out CTS because it is stubborn to start in all temps but especially warm. When warm, and when I say warm...barely warm like running for 5 minutes at idle warm.

Ruled out fuel pump and vapor lock because there is no possible way gas is vaporizing right now. Temps in Colorado are barely above freezing. I have a Walbro high flow pump FYI.

Its gotta be ignition. Tests have shown irregular or non existent ignition pulses into ignitor/coil. Again though, the crazy thing....it runs like a champ once it starts.

Looking for shorts now. Argh.
Be careful when ruling out the CTS. 0 degrees and 32 degrees is a big difference, I bet, and a faulty CTS could be telling the computer that it's 100 degrees, or 0 degrees, or whatever. The computer would use that faulty information for fuel enrichment on start. I would imagine it would impact ignition as well.

Can you jump the starter with a screwdriver? In my head, at least, that's a way of skipping whatever the computer was doing on startup. It worked for me until I addressed the real problem.

Jacob
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:42 PM   #9
jaycanode
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Jumping the starter is good suggestion.

Concerning CTS: When I monitor OBD2 gauges, coolant temp reading looks within reason. I have 2 coolant sensors next to each other and they agree with each other. Can I trust the OBD gauges to tell me if CTS is OK?
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Old 04-17-2013, 06:55 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jaycanode View Post
Jumping the starter is good suggestion.

Concerning CTS: When I monitor OBD2 gauges, coolant temp reading looks within reason. I have 2 coolant sensors next to each other and they agree with each other. Can I trust the OBD gauges to tell me if CTS is OK?
Ahh, ok. At first you mentioned you ruled it out because of a stubborn start at any temp. Ruling it out because of ok readings via OBD2 sounds way more reasonable. I'm not aware of any cases where OBD2 would lie about coolant temp, so I think it's ok to rely on those readings.

When you mention "tests" for the ignition, what kind of tests? What kind of results? I'm reaching the point where I won't be able to help you much, but putting that info up may get some better responses.

Jacob
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:10 PM   #11
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Using the old spark plug grounded on the intake while cranking trick, I got weak and sporadic spark.

Using a 12V LED I measured between positive lead of igniter connector and the other 2 "signal" leads. When ignition is on, these signal leads produce 7 or so volts (This seems weird). When I crank the engine my LED does not pulse in a rhythmic ignition timing sort of way. Its very slow to turn off and on and is quite irregular. If I crank for more than 5 seconds or so the LED goes out all together. This on both signal leads.

Battery is fine, starter cranks away at high speed. ( I have adapted a starter from a VW TDI.) I do get a CPS code consistently even though I just replaced that sensor. Popped timing belt cover to inspect "teeth" on cam and crank and they look fine.
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Old 04-17-2013, 07:54 PM   #12
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Have you cleaned the idle control valve yet? Also try cleaning the throttle body paying particular attention to the butterfly. I have had a few occasions of sticky throttle bodies on similar vintage Legacy / Outbacks. If you manually actuate the butterfly does it feel like it "pops" when you start moving it?

BTW how is your cooling sysem routed? Are you mounted under the bus or in the engine bay? Been contemplating an EJ swap on my 75 Westy.
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:07 AM   #13
jaycanode
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Slayer,
Have not cleaned any throttle body stuff, mainly cuz this motor ran like a dream when I took it out of the donor. Also, it runs like a dream once I get it started. It tends to "pop" not backfire ,pretty reliably during cranking This is what is so perplexing! I replaced coil today with no joy.

My cooling system is pretty hacked. Stainless lines run up in the general vicinity of the old heater vents. Metal has been cut for these on the undercarriage but they are tucked neatly. Lines run all the way to a Sirocco style radiator that has been mounted in a custom enclosure on the front. This is very un stock looking, but it is also dual purpose as it acts as a bike rack too. I bought the Bus this way. It had been previously fitted with a Toyota 3TC motor. While this motor was better than stock IMO it was still problematic, plus no one is stocking parts for these things anymore.

IMO I would not rely on a radiator setup that relies solely on active cooling. Get that radiator out front or fab a scoop if its underneath. Check this out for a clean install....(this is not mine, but me likey!)

http://www.vwrides.com/viewtopic.php?p=1143
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Old 04-20-2013, 11:49 AM   #14
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If your still getting crank sensor codes you need to fix that first. I'm willing to bet your hard starting will go away once the crank signal is fixed. Voltage drop test the wiring for the sensor. Double check your grounds and everything. Did you just put the whole harness in or is it cut and shortened/extended? It doesn't take much to cause a signal issue on a crank sensor do make sure you don't have any bad connections
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Old 04-20-2013, 12:55 PM   #15
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Looking at the original post more, I think your only "problem" codes are the P0336 and maybe the P1507 (P1507 could be a result of the fail to start).

In addition to the crank sensor, have you checked the cam position sensor as well? The ECM needs to see good signal from cam and crank to allow the engine to fire.

As cowboy_rob said the cam and crank sensor both are prone to electrical interference (note the special loom on those wires which acts as a faraday cage) If you cut either of those wires you may need to shield them.
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Old 04-21-2013, 01:16 AM   #16
jaycanode
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Things are considerably better after spark plug and coil replacement. It will consistently start in under 4-5 seconds of cranking. I am not thrilled that it doesn't fire over quickly EVERY time. I'm new to these engines. What should I be happy with?

I am not running a #2 O2 sensor. What kind of affect might this have?

Funny thing.... I only get CPS code on start. If I clear codes while running, the CPS does not surface. How do I test the CPS? It is brand new OEM so I am thinking its fine but maybe the circuit is f'd up?

Now dealing with air bubble issue in coolant. Do not have a burb tank in this build (yet) but I did tap the coolant manifold and ran a tube up for bleeding purposes. Can I employ your run of the mill overflow tank with air release from any old import auto? I know there are bleed threads ad nauseum on a variety of forums.

Wish I had a 5th gear! Pictures and build report coming soon.
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Old 04-21-2013, 06:14 PM   #17
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It might only be checking the crank sensor code at startup. First thing is check for bent pins or damaged wires at the connectors. Then check the wires for resistance and continuity from ecu to sensor. Remember to check the crank and cam sensors because its comparing them to each other.
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:18 AM   #18
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Rear 02 sensor, nothing to worry about (it only measures the efficiency of the catalysts)

As for the bleed tank, any tank will work as long as it's the highest point in the system. Take a look at the WRX tank as it has a mounting and radiator cap on it, would make for a clean installation.
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Old 04-22-2013, 11:06 AM   #19
jaycanode
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Another interesting wrinkle in this Subaru VW bus swap! It seems my hard start issues are relate to fuel system. Over several days I was monitoring fuel pressure when the bus just sat and overnight sometimes the pressure would drop to 0psi. ALSO, I noticed the half tank of fuel I had vanished with very little driving and lots of sitting. So I yanked plugs and found 3/4 were wet with gas after sitting all night! So obviously my injectors are leaking and causing foul problems! None of this was apparent as long as the engine was running, no smoke or rich running symptoms.

Full disclosure: My swap vehicle was a high mileage engine, albeit a well cared for one in good shape. I flipped the intake on this swap, leaving the fuel rails in stock ornamentation so I had to pull injector rails and reinstall them.....twice(don't ask). I did not replace the O-rings on injectors. AND I am ashamed to say...I DID NOT replace fuel filter for the swap.

So...reman injectors on their way from Rock and we'll see what happens then.

Thanks everyone for contributing to this issue!
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Old 04-22-2013, 12:26 PM   #20
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Injector failures are pretty uncommon on these cars, regardless of mileage. I would be more suspect of an electrical issue causing the injectors to stay open when sitting, especially if it's all four.

Check for phantom voltage reaching the injectors with the key off. I think you are onto something here.
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Old 04-22-2013, 04:08 PM   #21
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While you wait, couldn't you use a mechanic's stethoscope on the injectors to listen for fuel flow? If it's an electrical thing as Hondaslayer mentioned, then I'd think you could hear a difference when the injector is plugged in vs. not.

Also, so you're not chasing a red herring, I'm pretty sure a normal voltmeter/DMM setup that normal people have will not give you usable info for a crank position sensor, among other things you would want to check. My understanding is that you'd need an oscilloscope. USMB would probably have more info on that stuff, if you haven't already looked there.

Jacob
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Old 05-02-2013, 04:47 PM   #22
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Make sure also to check and be sure that the og #1 injector is still on #1 cylinder after turning the manifold
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