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Old 05-06-2013, 03:36 PM   #1
jmr302
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Question 6spd Swap - Shudder in Front or Center Diff

I have an '02 WRX that I just finished swapping a JDM '03 STi 6-speed into. I've only driven the car slowly around the apartment complex parking lot (needs an ECU tune) but I've noticed a shudder when making sharp turns, when the steering wheel is maybe half way to full lock on either side. Only happens when moving.

I got to test drive the donor car that this transmission came out of and it did not have this problem. Lube is Amsoil 75W90 Severe Gear, which I'm thinking may be the issue. The DCCD is not connected and the trans has been sitting for a year while I finished a complete swap. It has the same R180 rear diff that was in the donor car.

Thoughts? Ideas?
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:06 AM   #2
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Its the rear diff binding, i have a v8 jdm 6 speed too. Until u put a dccd controller on, this will happen. No big deal
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:59 AM   #3
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Ah, makes sense. Thanks, Zach.
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:34 PM   #4
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I have DCCD and mine does the same thing.
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:07 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by 25rsti View Post
I have DCCD and mine does the same thing.
You mean you have a DCCD controller on yours and it still binds/shudders? What transmission and what controller do you have? Any theories on what's happening?

For reference, my trans is a TY856WB3KA.
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Old 05-09-2013, 04:41 PM   #6
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I have an 04 STi 6 speed w/ R180 swapped into my 2003. Waiting to install DCCDPro controller. The car binds noticeably at low speeds, going around corners. It doesn't bother me, but then again, I'm used to when my Ford Ranger would bind up occasionally in 4WD.

Install a DCCD controller and see if that helps.
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Old 05-09-2013, 05:19 PM   #7
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I had the same thing happen to mine when i swapped an 05 usdm 6spd and r180 in. It only did it a couple times like turning out of the driveway or pulling into a parking spot. It was gone before my next oil change and havent had any issues since.

FWIW- Trans had 58k when installed at 121k. Now 133k and still no issues
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:20 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Horner View Post
I had the same thing happen to mine when i swapped an 05 usdm 6spd and r180 in. It only did it a couple times like turning out of the driveway or pulling into a parking spot. It was gone before my next oil change and havent had any issues since.

FWIW- Trans had 58k when installed at 121k. Now 133k and still no issues
I was wondering about that since the trans has been sitting for a while. The Suretrac front diff does have clutches in it.

I'm going to replace the Amsoil with OE Subaru trans fluid and see how it goes when I actually get to drive it every day. I'm definitely going to bump the DCCD controller up in priority though.
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Old 05-12-2013, 11:57 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmr302 View Post
You mean you have a DCCD controller on yours and it still binds/shudders? What transmission and what controller do you have? Any theories on what's happening?

For reference, my trans is a TY856WB3KA.
Mine is a JDM Spec C TY856WB3JA. I do have the DCCDPro controller installed to the STi cluster with OEM buttons. I have sounds when I go left, right and straight in 1st gear hard. Just for a moment. If I feather it and lightly gas it, it doesn't happen. Not sure why this happens but I don't like it.
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Old 05-20-2013, 09:56 PM   #10
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I just had a TY856WB6KA (version 8 JDM STI 6 speed) w/ matching R180 installed in my 03 wagon. I didn't install a DCCD controller until about a week after the transmission/rear diff were installed. Without the DCCD controller I had the same issue that you're describing. I figured the DCCDPro controller that I had would fix it but it hasn't. I know for sure that the controller is working properly because if I'm doing slow circles on a flat surface I can feel a distinct and progressive change in the resistance the diff gives me as I turn the knob on the controller.

I've been doing a lot of research and have come to find out that the type of fluid that you use in that rear diff can actually make a BIG difference in the way it acts. I didn't know the proper fluid to put into the diff when it was being installed and I guess my mechanic didn't know either so we just went with Synthetic Amsoil for both the transmission and the rear diff. I have a sneaking suspicion that if I change out the fluid to gear oil that's designed for limited slip differentials (Subaru OEM Extra S LSD or Motul 90PA) it'll function properly. If that doesn't work then I'm out of ideas.

jmr302, did you end up switching out the oil? If so, what was the result? Hopefully I can get around to changing mine out this weekend. If I do get around to it I'll post the results here.
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Old 05-20-2013, 10:04 PM   #11
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I haven't drained the trans oil yet. I won't have time to do it for a couple weeks and also have to reassemble the reverse lockout while I'm there.

I'm also breaking in new piston rings so I've been taking it easy. The diff shudder is definitely worse with cold oil but seems like it's gotten a little better since I started driving the car again. Might be my imagination.
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Old 05-21-2013, 09:29 AM   #12
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Default is OPEN for DCCD's, unless a controller tells them to close. So if you have a DCCD with no controller or the controller is disconnected, the center locking diff is OPEN.

Some controllers (oem for example) have an auto mode, maybe dccd pro has an auto mode too? If you're driving on snow, dirt and puddled water, good reason to use auto mode or manually engage your center diff. Otherwise suggest NOT using auto mode.

Also, do you have components - especially trans and rear diff - that are meant to work together? Drive ratios between trans and rear diff need to match.

Rallispec produced a trans chart to include types of middle/front/rear diffs. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/atta...7&d=1303880549

Mine is a jdm v7 6 spd drivetrain, all parts and pieces match. Have a a neetronics controller (old school and suggest the dccd pro), in the car for maybe 100k miles. Use subaru LSD in r-180 rear diff and subaru extra s in trans. No issues. Never felt any locking shudder other than when dccd engaged and at lower speeds.

And my rear diff is NOT controllable, and I bet NO rear subaru diff is controllable. There's a temperature sending unit on my r-180 rear diff, not connected.
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Old 05-22-2013, 02:02 AM   #13
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"Default is OPEN for DCCD's, unless a controller tells them to close. So if you have a DCCD with no controller or the controller is disconnected, the center locking diff is OPEN."

I don't believe this is correct. Rallispec and other sources say my particular trans defaults to 35% front / 65% rear. The car was on a Dynoject dyno last week and I found this to be true. The unique thing about this Dynojet is that the front and rear rollers are not geared together--they can spin independently. My uncontrolled DCCD diff spun both rollers but the rear was much faster. In fact the rear roller read about 65% of the power we expected to get. The front roller was still spinning, which wouldn't occur if the diff was open, and it was much slower.

Quote:
Also, do you have components - especially trans and rear diff - that are meant to work together? Drive ratios between trans and rear diff need to match.

Rallispec produced a trans chart to include types of middle/front/rear diffs. http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/atta...7&d=1303880549
My trans has a 3.9:1 ring & pinion and a 1:1 center diff, like the early STi. I had assumed my R180 was matching JDM or early USM STi like a lot of other parts on this car, but I admit I haven't checked. I think it's time to jack the rear of the car up and count rotations.
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Old 05-22-2013, 02:08 AM   #14
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Has anyone been able to buy Subaru OEM Extra S LSD fluid from a dealer? The dealerships I've been to only have 55 gal barrels. I'd like to run this fluid but am not keen about them servicing my car.
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Old 05-22-2013, 03:22 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jmr302 View Post
Has anyone been able to buy Subaru OEM Extra S LSD fluid from a dealer? The dealerships I've been to only have 55 gal barrels. I'd like to run this fluid but am not keen about them servicing my car.
here's a sad but true story.

asked the dealer if they used subie extra s trans fluid. yes. asked them to change the fluid, and was invoiced for synthetic trans fluid.

Couple months later went to buy 4 qts of subie extra s and they said "we don't stock and don't use". How long I asked..., answer was "a long time".

Encourage buy 4 qts (from Fed Bean subaru for example) and put in or have a dealer put it in.
http://www.fredbeansparts.com/subaru...rt-bottle.html
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Old 07-31-2013, 10:43 PM   #16
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Just an update, I replaced the LSD oil with the subary LSD stuff and it seemed to be better initially but it's returned full force since. I've since purchased a replacement center diff and will update once that's installed to see if it solves the problem. I sure hope it does because if it doesn't I'm out of ideas (and cash -haha).
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Old 08-01-2013, 12:19 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezive one View Post
Just an update, I replaced the LSD oil with the subary LSD stuff and it seemed to be better initially but it's returned full force since. I've since purchased a replacement center diff and will update once that's installed to see if it solves the problem. I sure hope it does because if it doesn't I'm out of ideas (and cash -haha).
Hmmm. I hope it doesn't require a new center diff, but would be happy for you if that solves the problem.

I still haven't changed trans lube in mine. I had planned to do it when I pull the tailshaft housing to R&R the reverse lockout mechanism but haven't made time to do that job so it still has Amsoil in it and still shudders in tight turns. Shifts and drives fine though.

The Subaru lube you're talking about; was it the Subaru OE fluid or an LSD additive?
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Old 11-04-2013, 12:01 AM   #18
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Just wanted to update the thread with some major progress. I did a bit more reading and started to reason that my problem had less to do with the differential itself and more to do with the information (or lack thereof) it was receiving. The center diff relies on data from the ABS sensors to let it know how fast each wheel is spinning and adjust the distribution of power appropriately. Apparently the ABS sensors get gunked up pretty easily though and if that happens the differential doesn't receive accurate data and can't operate as designed. The tone rings, which are the part of the system that rotates with the axle and what the ABS sensors detect motion of, can also get pretty dirty. I have a 2003 wagon as previously mentioned and as far as I know the ABS sensors/tone rings had never been cleaned. After doing so however the shuddering/skipping that I felt going around tighter corners at slower speeds has almost completely been eliminated. The whole car drives much smoother now and I can only reason that it's because the differential is now receiving accurate information about the speed of all of the wheels. Save yourself from spending any more time and money and clean your sensors. You may even have to replace a sensor if it's gone bad. The tone rings can also be damaged/cracked. Lastly the sensors can sometimes be operational but they may be positioned too far from the tone ring to register a correct signal. There's a way to adjust this, although I'm not completely familiar with it. Hope this helps.
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Old 11-04-2013, 12:28 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by imprezive one View Post
Just wanted to update the thread with some major progress. I did a bit more reading and started to reason that my problem had less to do with the differential itself and more to do with the information (or lack thereof) it was receiving. The center diff relies on data from the ABS sensors to let it know how fast each wheel is spinning and adjust the distribution of power appropriately. Apparently the ABS sensors get gunked up pretty easily though and if that happens the differential doesn't receive accurate data and can't operate as designed. The tone rings, which are the part of the system that rotates with the axle and what the ABS sensors detect motion of, can also get pretty dirty. I have a 2003 wagon as previously mentioned and as far as I know the ABS sensors/tone rings had never been cleaned. After doing so however the shuddering/skipping that I felt going around tighter corners at slower speeds has almost completely been eliminated. The whole car drives much smoother now and I can only reason that it's because the differential is now receiving accurate information about the speed of all of the wheels. Save yourself from spending any more time and money and clean your sensors. You may even have to replace a sensor if it's gone bad. The tone rings can also be damaged/cracked. Lastly the sensors can sometimes be operational but they may be positioned too far from the tone ring to register a correct signal. There's a way to adjust this, although I'm not completely familiar with it. Hope this helps.
Are you sure this is correct? I don't think the abs system is connected to the center diff in your 03. I know in the STi's the abs system is somehow connected to the dccd system though.
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Old 11-04-2013, 01:39 PM   #20
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codesoccer, yeah I have an STI 6-speed swapped into my '03 WRX. The OP has an '03 STI 6 speed swapped into his '02 WRX. In my case it didn't matter whether a manual DCCD controller was connected or not, since the shuddering was happening both before and after I got a controller hooked up. Also the controller itself worked fine it just didn't do anything to fix the shudder. That makes sense because the ABS sensors were dirty the whole time and therefore not functioning correctly regardless of whether the controller was hooked up or not.
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Old 11-04-2013, 08:30 PM   #21
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What DCCD controller are you guys using?
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Old 11-05-2013, 08:11 PM   #22
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Unless you grafted in the oem DCCD controls (which is highly doubtful) or you are using an aftermarket DCCD controller with ABS input (not aware of many that do)...your 6MT is blind to what your ABS system is doing or not doing.
It is something else, just did not want you spending time on it. A placebo at best.
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Old 11-05-2013, 10:44 PM   #23
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JarHarms View Post
Unless you grafted in the oem DCCD controls (which is highly doubtful) or you are using an aftermarket DCCD controller with ABS input (not aware of many that do)...your 6MT is blind to what your ABS system is doing or not doing.
It is something else, just did not want you spending time on it. A placebo at best.
That's what I was trying to get at. You just said it better
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Old 04-19-2014, 02:22 AM   #24
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Back from the dead!

I finally changed the lube in my 6spd and it made a huge difference. The driveshaft seal starting leaking a few weeks ago so I decided to change the oil while I was in there. It had been running Amsoil Synthetic Severe Gear 75W-90 since I assembled this engine/trans combo about 1 year ago. Now it's got regular non-synth Valvoline 75W-90. Shifts are smoother and easier and there's dramatically less chunkiness in the center and front diff. It still pops a bit in super tight turns, like the ones I have to do to get out of the driveway first thing in the morning, but once underway it feels like a normal transmission and I still don't have an aftermarket DCCD.

I put the Amsoil GL-5 in this transmission because that's what the '04 STi trans uses. But since mine is actually an '03 JDM STi trans with a Sure Grip front diff, it may be designed for GL-4--I dunno. The Valvoline says it's GL-4 & -5 compatible.
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Old 04-19-2014, 07:49 AM   #25
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Any reason you didn't try some Subaru Extra-S?
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