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Old 05-07-2013, 11:31 AM   #26
shikataganai
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I read a few days ago than median income for new car purchasers is $90k.
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Old 05-07-2013, 01:37 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
I have a Miata. I have had it for more than 10 years.

I have never driven it on any track.

I drive it in traffic, and it is something you have to/get to rev to the sky to make the car move with authority. With any less power, especially less displacement and torque, if it can't get out of it's own way until the engine tries to spin it's bearings, that may become a problem.

My Miata is ~2400lbs, and is factory rated at 144hp, and while fine on side streets and some highways, I try not to take it on the interstate, because at 75-ish MPH, it gets wind blown by semi trucks, is extremely loud and tiresome, and doesn't have much more power for evasive maneuvers around people who don't see such a small car from their hulking SUVs.

Lighter weight offsetting less power may be theoretically good for a spec racing series with similar weight and powered cars, but it does not make it a better road car.

And as a road car, it still has to be federalized to all the safety standards, even as much as I don't agree with some of them... and a Miata is verging on driving a tin can down the road, in terms of safety, as it is. Any lighter weight that compromises what strength the car has, and less capable of evasive maneuvers, due to less power, is a move in the wrong direction.

Miata is a road-going sports car first, not a race car. And any further behind the 8-ball it gets... will make it a less appealing option on the road, regardless of the track.
I would offer you can make a car lighter and stronger at the same time. It just costs money.

We know not what the guru's at mazda have in store for us, but it will be sure to put a smile on your face.
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Old 05-07-2013, 02:18 PM   #28
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Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I would offer you can make a car lighter and stronger at the same time. It just costs money.

We know not what the guru's at mazda have in store for us, but it will be sure to put a smile on your face.
Really you think Hip can smile?
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Old 05-08-2013, 08:38 AM   #29
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
I have a Miata. I have had it for more than 10 years.

I have never driven it on any track.

I drive it in traffic, and it is something you have to/get to rev to the sky to make the car move with authority. With any less power, especially less displacement and torque, if it can't get out of it's own way until the engine tries to spin it's bearings, that may become a problem.

My Miata is ~2400lbs, and is factory rated at 144hp, and while fine on side streets and some highways, I try not to take it on the interstate, because at 75-ish MPH, it gets wind blown by semi trucks, is extremely loud and tiresome, and doesn't have much more power for evasive maneuvers around people who don't see such a small car from their hulking SUVs.

Lighter weight offsetting less power may be theoretically good for a spec racing series with similar weight and powered cars, but it does not make it a better road car.

And as a road car, it still has to be federalized to all the safety standards, even as much as I don't agree with some of them... and a Miata is verging on driving a tin can down the road, in terms of safety, as it is. Any lighter weight that compromises what strength the car has, and less capable of evasive maneuvers, due to less power, is a move in the wrong direction.

Miata is a road-going sports car first, not a race car. And any further behind the 8-ball it gets... will make it a less appealing option on the road, regardless of the track.
The next Miata will be a road car

How do you know and why would Mazda make a car less safe, worst maneuverability, less capable than the previous version?

People complain when the weight goes up and now people complain when the weight goes down.

The new engine is using the latest in Mazda engineering. It will have much better power band than your old.

You can't just look at peak powers. They DI should improve it's lower end torque and perhaps it could be underrated.
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Old 05-08-2013, 10:10 AM   #30
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People complain when the weight goes up and now people complain when the weight goes down.
It's not just that. Best case weight goes down and power goes up. Decent case one of them improves while the other stays the same. Worst case is performance remains unchanged because they both change proportionately (I.E. weight AND power go down or up). The idea here is there should be distinct large jumps in performance across every new generation; big noticeable improvement. Some car manufacturers are getting it while others are stagnating, thus losing their edge. Mustang, GTR, and a few others are making leaps while STi and miata seem to be trending towards small improvement. People want to support a brand and they get pissed when they can't because other people do it better.

Quote:
You can't just look at peak powers. They DI should improve it's lower end torque and perhaps it could be underrated.
You can't just look at peak numbers, yes, but you should only look at like the top 3rd, as that is ideally where you will always be in fun situations. Low torque is good for what... getting going at a stop light without actually having to WOT your throttle or launch? Who cares, the granny in front of you is still gonna take 10 seconds to get going 35 mph, and everyone behind you is going to lag 2-3 car lengths before they hit the gas. You really don't need the comfort of low end torque like everyone seems to think.
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Old 05-08-2013, 11:10 AM   #31
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Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
It's not just that. Best case weight goes down and power goes up. Decent case one of them improves while the other stays the same. Worst case is performance remains unchanged because they both change proportionately (I.E. weight AND power go down or up). The idea here is there should be distinct large jumps in performance across every new generation; big noticeable improvement. Some car manufacturers are getting it while others are stagnating, thus losing their edge. Mustang, GTR, and a few others are making leaps while STi and miata seem to be trending towards small improvement. People want to support a brand and they get pissed when they can't because other people do it better.
The nice thing about weight reduction is it can improve many areas of performance not related to the power output of the engine. You will get improved handling, braking, and easier to manage transitions as long as the chassis is as strong or stronger than it's heavier counterpart.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:12 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
It's not just that. Best case weight goes down and power goes up. Decent case one of them improves while the other stays the same. Worst case is performance remains unchanged because they both change proportionately (I.E. weight AND power go down or up). The idea here is there should be distinct large jumps in performance across every new generation; big noticeable improvement. Some car manufacturers are getting it while others are stagnating, thus losing their edge. Mustang, GTR, and a few others are making leaps while STi and miata seem to be trending towards small improvement. People want to support a brand and they get pissed when they can't because other people do it better.



You can't just look at peak numbers, yes, but you should only look at like the top 3rd, as that is ideally where you will always be in fun situations. Low torque is good for what... getting going at a stop light without actually having to WOT your throttle or launch? Who cares, the granny in front of you is still gonna take 10 seconds to get going 35 mph, and everyone behind you is going to lag 2-3 car lengths before they hit the gas. You really don't need the comfort of low end torque like everyone seems to think.

So by your train of thought every single year a car should get faster and faster by large margins every single generation...

By that Logic Porsche's are dismal and pathetic. How many versions have their been. Same for the mustang. What a piece of crap. They are only making tiny itty bitty increases every 4-7 years. If any. No large improvement every new model generation. How many versions of the Camry have their been, it should be capable of what, 0-60 in 5.1 seconds by now at the very least. The Corvette is on its 7th generation, and its performance hovers around the same place.

My point is large improvements are easy when you are on the slow side of performance, but once you get up in the fast world, those metrics become very expensive to make.

Here is the truth. The WRX and STI cannot get noticeably faster. To make a car go from a 17 second car to a 15 second car takes lets say 1000 dollars. But to make a 12 second car an 11 second car, it could take 10 times that much.

The WRX and STI are already on the high end of the performance spectrum. There are NO large improvements in (straight line) performance that can be had at any reasonable sum of money. They are on the linear portion of an asymtotic curve.

This is not a super car, this is a daily driver. The STI can do a sub 5 second 0-60 right now with a skilled driver. How much faster do you really think it needs to get? 3 seconds? Nonsense.

We are not going to be getting a dramatically faster accelerating STI, it is not in the cards. What we may get is an STI that is a more capable handling and braking machine with a better interior. And if that happens and their is not any large price creep, they will be in great shape.
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Old 05-08-2013, 12:38 PM   #33
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The next Miata will be a road car

How do you know and why would Mazda make a car less safe, worst maneuverability, less capable than the previous version?

People complain when the weight goes up and now people complain when the weight goes down.

The new engine is using the latest in Mazda engineering. It will have much better power band than your old.

You can't just look at peak powers. They DI should improve it's lower end torque and perhaps it could be underrated.
The car may not be less safe, but then it is unlikely to be lighter weight than it already is.

If it is hundreds of pounds lighter than it already is, to offset a reduction in horsepower to ~130 from a 1.6L without forced induction, it will likely have little torque, regardless of fuel injection, and then be noticeably slower than it already is.

All in the name of fuel economy. A 1.6 liter with 130 peak horsepower, in an engine that Mazda says it wants to keep free of forced induction, so that it can rev.... That isn't a highly tuned engine.

Motorcycles with half a liter less displacement rev faster, and make more peak horsepower, well over 100hp/liter. This rumored engine will make markedly less than 100hp/liter, and thus suggests that it is likely an economy car engine, with a light flywheel for revving. Maybe variable valve timing, and DFI, but they can't work magic, and create power out of nothingness. It is still a low-displacement engine, with low volumetric efficiency, if 1.6L@130hp is accurate.

There is a reason I won't own a Smart ForTwo. Miata becoming a city-only car, with insufficient power or structural safety for the highway, will make sure that I won't buy one.

Yes, the Miata is fun to wind out, but any slower to respond in traffic, when the engine might not already be above 3000RPMs, and it is a double demerit... not only can it not get out of the way, but it is a small, light weight, vulnerable structure. Any lighter weight, and it will likely be MORE vulnerable, not less.

Lighter and stronger costs money. Miata will likely not cost Alfa money, so not to compete, and it isn't a BMW Z4, or Boxster anyway, especially not with 130hp. It can't afford to cost less money.

Any way you slice it, it is a LOSING PROPOSITION for Miata to have a smaller engine than it already does.

A: Same weight, less power - slower in traffic, more vulnerable to be hit by not being able to evade.

B: Less weight, less power - same as current in traffic, more vulnerable to be crushed more severely if hit.

C: Less weight, less power, same or better strength at higher cost - same as current in traffic, same vulnerability as current, but won't sell compared to cars with more power and better build quality.

Miata is already at the borderline of being under-powered, and is already at a significant safety dis-advantage. Any progress further in those directions is not good for a road car.

As a Maita driver, defensive driving is absolutely necessary, almost as much as with a motorcycle. And the available power to evade a nasty situation is not something to cut back on. In an accident with anything larger, Miata loses, and almost everything else is larger.

Current and past Miatas have been worth the risk.

A further under-powered Miata might cross that line.

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Old 05-08-2013, 12:40 PM   #34
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New Alfa Spider with up to 300hp?

Hmmm... *contemplates selling BRZ*
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Old 05-08-2013, 02:32 PM   #35
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So by your train of thought every single year a car should get faster and faster by large margins every single generation...
For sports cars, they should improve every time there is a complete redesign (as in a new platform, chassis, etc). When I say improve, I'm talking either one big aspect or an over all package improvement with all the newest tech that is feasible for a price point (right now that's DI, monoblock calipers, wishbones where possible, IRS, etc). Carbon ceramic brakes may not be feasible for all cars now, though eventually all technology should trickle down at some, however I would say there are minimums for every segment.

Every sports car has it's demon, and everyone knows what they are. I feel a manufacturer should constantly try to fix this one "big glaring" problem.

For the miata, it's power. Handling (while a little soft currently) is still more than adequate. Weight is good too. Braking is fine. It's always been the power with the miata.

For the BRZ, again, power. Everything else is fine.

For the mustang, it's weight and handling.

For the M3, it's the fact that it comes with tons of other garbage and a BMW price tag. phook leather and fancy stuff.

For my s2000 (if it were out still) it would be no hardtop or DI

For the sti it's the understeer and weight. If they go 2.0 with DI and keep power at 300 I'd be fine with that.

It's easy to solve most of these problems, and if one person would do it, they could revolutionize the market, but no one wants to one-up people the way the GTR originally did at this price point (sub 40k) it seems, except maybe the new mustang GT.
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Old 05-08-2013, 02:50 PM   #36
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Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
The car may not be less safe, but then it is unlikely to be lighter weight than it already is.

If it is hundreds of pounds lighter than it already is, to offset a reduction in horsepower to ~130 from a 1.6L without forced induction, it will likely have little torque, regardless of fuel injection, and then be noticeably slower than it already is.

All in the name of fuel economy. A 1.6 liter with 130 peak horsepower, in an engine that Mazda says it wants to keep free of forced induction, so that it can rev.... That isn't a highly tuned engine.

Motorcycles with half a liter less displacement rev faster, and make more peak horsepower, well over 100hp/liter. This rumored engine will make markedly less than 100hp/liter, and thus suggests that it is likely an economy car engine, with a light flywheel for revving. Maybe variable valve timing, and DFI, but they can't work magic, and create power out of nothingness. It is still a low-displacement engine, with low volumetric efficiency, if 1.6L@130hp is accurate.

There is a reason I won't own a Smart ForTwo. Miata becoming a city-only car, with insufficient power or structural safety for the highway, will make sure that I won't buy one.

Yes, the Miata is fun to wind out, but any slower to respond in traffic, when the engine might not already be above 3000RPMs, and it is a double demerit... not only can it not get out of the way, but it is a small, light weight, vulnerable structure. Any lighter weight, and it will likely be MORE vulnerable, not less.

Lighter and stronger costs money. Miata will likely not cost Alfa money, so not to compete, and it isn't a BMW Z4, or Boxster anyway, especially not with 130hp. It can't afford to cost less money.

Any way you slice it, it is a LOSING PROPOSITION for Miata to have a smaller engine than it already does.

A: Same weight, less power - slower in traffic, more vulnerable to be hit by not being able to evade.

B: Less weight, less power - same as current in traffic, more vulnerable to be crushed more severely if hit.

C: Less weight, less power, same or better strength at higher cost - same as current in traffic, same vulnerability as current, but won't sell compared to cars with more power and better build quality.

Miata is already at the borderline of being under-powered, and is already at a significant safety dis-advantage. Any progress further in those directions is not good for a road car.

As a Maita driver, defensive driving is absolutely necessary, almost as much as with a motorcycle. And the available power to evade a nasty situation is not something to cut back on. In an accident with anything larger, Miata loses, and almost everything else is larger.

Current and past Miatas have been worth the risk.

A further under-powered Miata might cross that line.
Ykeep saying that you do not have enough power to evade...

You keep saying it is borderline unsafe at its power level... I have to ask you...

How the hell do you drive man?

People grew up driving 80 Hp toyotas and hondas with families of 4 across the country and lived to tell the tale. No they were not fast, but they were perfectly fine.

There are safe driving practices that you can implement, that do not start with floor it and then look for a way out.
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Old 05-08-2013, 03:38 PM   #37
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Ykeep saying that you do not have enough power to evade...

You keep saying it is borderline unsafe at its power level... I have to ask you...

How the hell do you drive man?

People grew up driving 80 Hp toyotas and hondas with families of 4 across the country and lived to tell the tale. No they were not fast, but they were perfectly fine.

There are safe driving practices that you can implement, that do not start with floor it and then look for a way out.
Most other people on the road then were not driving 6000+lb V8 SUVs, and 4000lb+ CUVs with nearly 300 horsepower, or even more in some cases.

Plus, the road mortality rate is lower than ever now... which suggests that it was higher back then. You are welcome to go find a 30-40 year old 80hp japanese car, and drive it around, if you wish. I don't think I will.

Those toyotas were MUCH lighter than their current equivalent. New Hondas and Toyotas have between 2-300 horsepower, and weigh probably 1000-1500lbs more.

I don't "floor it" but that is kind of the point, isn't it?

I don't drive the miata around with the engine constantly above 3000RPMs, and ready to go. If the engine were always on the boil, it would be less of a concern, but it isn't.

But some SUV pulling out in front of me, or tailgating me, or crossing an uncontrolled intersection without considering right-of-way, or merely cruising at 75+mph with cruise control on, and all sorts of distractions, not seeing a little car on the highway...

If I am not above 3000RPM, it takes time to get the car back up on the boil, to move out of the behemoth's way. A behemoth that may easily more than DOUBLE the Miata's mass, and climb up over the car by being so much taller.

Less horsepower and torque means that making the car get up and get out of the way takes LONGER, when milliseconds count.

riding a motorcycle, or driving a small car like Miata is a bigger risk than most other vehicles. They are supposed to be nimble and quick enough to evade, if possible, because it is highly more likely to be lethal if you don't.

Taking power, and thus a certain safety margin, away is a big concern.

You can put your family in a tin can amongst steel behemoths out on the road, and keep paring away the defenses... and if something bad happens, I guess that is inconsequential, right?

There is a line where something goes from a known and accepted risk, to being too risky.

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Old 05-08-2013, 03:47 PM   #38
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I'm curious, which Miata do you have? I have an NB1 and it has enough power to "evade" and even passing power. Downshift and you take off. At 65 mph it cruises above 3000 rpm. This is in Southern California BTW, where SUVs reign supreme...
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:01 PM   #39
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I have an NB, a 1999, in the midwest, where full size truck-bases SUVS and cowboy-caddilac monster pickup trucks are everywhere, driven by seemingly by distracted women, and farm-boys on a power trip, and most of my driving is on rural highways, not all on city streets in lower gears.

65 on a 2 lane highway is fine. 75+ on a 4 or 6-lane interstate with every other behemoth doing ~80... and semi-trucks... not Miata's element. Less power isn't going to do it any favors at all.

My point is that the current and previous models have had enough, if sometimes just barely enough to evade or pass.

But if the ND Miata generation is looking to decrease that, it may become an issue.

With the big push for fuel economy being the criteria that rules all others, cars are losing power to gain MPG, and avoid CAFE fines for the manufacturers.

Mazda sells a lot of cars, and only 2 models of CUVs that fit light truck classification. Cars like Mazda 2, base Mazda 3, and Miata are likely to be the MPG average raisers, to offset larger cars like Mazda 6, or any Mazdaspeed products that are thirstier.

I don't assume that a driver's sense of what an appropriate power level should be, is the main criteria that the government, and the manufacturers will use, anymore.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:01 PM   #40
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AH I see I forgot about the road morality....


You see now it all makes sense..











not really, I think your crazy...




You focus on one narrow band of instance where power is useful, when in general if you drive safely, and with a moderate amount of brain cells you can use tactics like not folloiwng too close, braking early, looking twice, always having an out, etc to live quite safely without needing too much power.

By your account all older cars should be banned as they are inherently unsafe because they cannot survive a direct impact from a 6000 lb SUV with 400 HP.

I want to understand you, I really do, but my gosh you have a narrow view of the world.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:08 PM   #41
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plus vvt and DI mean it's likely that it'll have more torque than any previous 130HP miata engine. It very likely could have more power at 3000 RPM than any previous miata.

Peak HP doesn't mean a whole lot when you talk about driving in traffic. Nobody drives in traffic at 6000 RPM.

I'm sure there are plenty of situations in traffic where a 130 HP miata will have more usable power than a 300 HP 02-05 WRX.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:25 PM   #42
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AH I see I forgot about the road morality....

You see now it all makes sense..

not really, I think your crazy...

You focus on one narrow band of instance where power is useful, when in general if you drive safely, and with a moderate amount of brain cells you can use tactics like not folloiwng too close, braking early, looking twice, always having an out, etc to live quite safely without needing too much power.

By your account all older cars should be banned as they are inherently unsafe because they cannot survive a direct impact from a 6000 lb SUV with 400 HP.

I want to understand you, I really do, but my gosh you have a narrow view of the world.
How many passenger miles do old cars usually rack up, compared to newer ones?

I am not a fan of bans... so I don't endorse banning old cars.

But just because a weak, tiny old car can hold a license plate, doesn't mean it is a good proposition to take it out on the interstate.

What have I said so far that isn't about a driver making a choice, based on criteria?

Just because something exists doesn't mean it is good at everything, nor even a good idea to take undue risks with.

People drive little smart cars, and stuff around... whatever. In town, I think they are dorky.

On the Interstate, I think they are a deathtrap, and you couln't pay me to own and keep one.

That is my choice. It is across the line of acceptable risk.

All I am saying, is if ND Miata sacrifices power for fuel economy, as a 1.6L@130hp engine suggests it might, It may go from being acceptable risk, to not acceptable risk.

Maybe someone else will accept the risk. Maybe they'll survive, maybe they'll get tragically injured or killed in an accident with a larger vehicle.

I drive on the highways and interstates. It is my estimation that anything LESS powerful, and likely just as heavy or heavier, than my NB Miata, is not a suitable replacement for it, and I won't buy it, no matter how much I like my current Miata.

If it sacrifices structural integrity for lower weight to keep performance at an acceptable level, it is just trading one risk for another.

Plan to buy one if you want.

That doesn't mean that I have to agree with you, with Mazda, or whomever, and If you don't get the reasoning that I have laid out multiple times, then it is a *YOU PROBLEM*.

Do what the hell you want.
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Old 05-08-2013, 04:29 PM   #43
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So two cars, with similiar weights but very different power (and price). If 130hp and cheaper works for you, buy the Mazda. If you want significantly more power pony up to the Alfa. Where's the problem?

Thank god mazda wasn't foolish enough to put a thirsty, low torque, expensive and difficult to service rotary into a Miata.
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Old 05-08-2013, 06:39 PM   #44
Spenk
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Member#: 7164
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Arizona Bay
Vehicle:
2000 Miata LS
Evo Orange Mica (1/644)

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Quote:
Originally Posted by SCRAPPYDO View Post
I want to understand you, I really do, but my gosh you have a narrow view of the world.
The excessive degree of useless detail, pointless exposition and repetition in his posts suggest that he's probably an Aspie.

Or just insane.
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