Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday August 22, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > News & Rumors > Non-Subaru News & Rumors

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-06-2013, 10:17 AM   #1
warpath
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 84622
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: -=OT B-Lister=-
Vehicle:
2010 EVO X GSR
1992 MKIII Supra

Default BMW says current M3 sold out, no new AWD M models planned

Autoblog: http://www.autoblog.com/2013/05/06/b...odels-planned/



Quote:
Car and Driver asked the head of BMW M, Friedrich Nitschke, a few questions about what the go-fast division had in mind for the future, and was rewarded with some enlightening answers. The best news to purist ears is that Nitschke said customers don't want all-wheel drive on their M cars, so it's the rear wheels alone that will propel new product into the future. If you want both an M badge and four driven wheels, it's the X5 M, X6 M and M Performance models you're looking for in the catalog.

"Mixed bag" is the phrase you're looking for regarding the other answers. Nitschke said that future M engines "at the core of their architecture" would "be closer to BMW AG engines" that are optimized for M cars, instead of following in the line of unique marvels like the V10 and naturally aspirated V8. They will keep the high redlines, however, with Nitschke saying "there is room beyond" the 7,000 rpm mark in BMW's current V8 turbos.

Managing weight will keep the same priority for M that it is for every other brand, so electrically assisted power steering is coming, as is an "unconventional" materials mix. At the smaller end of the M scale, Nitschke described three-cylinder engines as "attractive," saying that the brand can produce more than 310 horsepower from a three-pot.

As for the current M3, it's all gone. Nitschke said the company has about six more months of coupe and convertible production, but the units to come already have customers "on principle."
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
warpath is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 02:25 PM   #2
SoapBox
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 204578
Join Date: Mar 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Philadelphia
Vehicle:
S54 M3, N54 135i
In another life: REX8

Default

Quote:
Nitschke said that future M engines "at the core of their architecture" would "be closer to BMW AG engines" that are optimized for M cars, instead of following in the line of unique marvels like the V10 and naturally aspirated V8.
Great, kill what made them worth a premium over the non-M cars.

Comparatively speaking, it's easy to swap over suspensions, a diff, etc. than to swap an engine.

One reason why IMHO, it's hard to justify a 1M vs. a 135i (well, at least at used-car prices).

Now all BMW is doing is turning up the boost on the "regular" engines.

Yet, that's not reflected in the price. Before you were paying for a special engine.

"**** you Switzerland"
SoapBox is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 02:36 PM   #3
WRXHillClimb
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 206907
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Abq, NM
Vehicle:
2014 EvoX GSR
2005 S2000 Track Car

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
Great, kill what made them worth a premium over the non-M cars.

Comparatively speaking, it's easy to swap over suspensions, a diff, etc. than to swap an engine.

One reason why IMHO, it's hard to justify a 1M vs. a 135i (well, at least at used-car prices).

Now all BMW is doing is turning up the boost on the "regular" engines.

Yet, that's not reflected in the price. Before you were paying for a special engine.

"**** you Switzerland"
Agreed. the difference between an e46 (or e36) m3 versus any other 3 series offered was completely staggering and worth the price increase for the performance alone, and the niceties of better interior seemed to come as icing on top. Not so much any more with their crap m line garbage and directions like this.
WRXHillClimb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 06:43 PM   #4
HipToBeSquare
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 119958
Join Date: Jul 2006
Location: (IA) flyover cornfield country
Vehicle:
1992 SVX LS-L

Default

No more M3s...

Because the next one will be called M4, since the coupes are now even numbers.

The next M3 will be a 4-door car, likely after the M4 debuts.

Lets hope they don't have 310hp 3-cylinder engines.
HipToBeSquare is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 06:46 PM   #5
unclemat
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 114530
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2005 LGT 6MT wagon

Default

Good riddance. While good on paper the current M3's V8 engine was nothing to write home about, nor the car overall (porker).

The M5, however, both previous and current, are something, each in its own way....

Last edited by unclemat; 05-08-2013 at 09:50 PM.
unclemat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 07:56 PM   #6
SoapBox
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 204578
Join Date: Mar 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Philadelphia
Vehicle:
S54 M3, N54 135i
In another life: REX8

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by HipToBeSquare View Post
No more M3s...

Because the next one will be called M4, since the coupes are now even numbers.

The next M3 will be a 4-door car, likely after the M4 debuts.

Lets hope they don't have 310hp 3-cylinder engines.


No, "no more M3's" refers to the fact that you can't get the current V8 M3 anymore, 2 door or 4 door.

It has nothing to do with the new M3/M4 and their name changes.
SoapBox is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 08:02 PM   #7
SoapBox
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 204578
Join Date: Mar 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Philadelphia
Vehicle:
S54 M3, N54 135i
In another life: REX8

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemat View Post

The new M5, however, both previous and current, are something, each in its own way....
What? The new M5 is a ****ing joke. Everything you don't like about the V8 M3, is magnified in the new M5.

As someone said best it's "the best 7 series BMW has ever made". Hugely heavy, crappy handling, crappy steering. Everything a BMW shouldn't be. Yes, it's fast. That's it.

That car has been beat up in the media since its release. The enthusiast community considers it a bad, bad sign of things to come.

While the E90/92/93 M3 is overweight, too large, and has lost much of its edge, again, the exact same thing (even moreso) can be said for the new M5.

The new M5 is what has people worrying about the new M3. That they're going to **** up yet another car.

Ugg...that really grinds my gears. How could you even say that? The new M5 is a horrible, horrible excuse for the "ultimate driving machine". It's a ****ing barge.
SoapBox is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 08:10 PM   #8
unclemat
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 114530
Join Date: May 2006
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2005 LGT 6MT wagon

Default

Let's not exaggerate. While I'd agree E60 M5 > F10 M5 (myself I'd pick E60 - if I were to be in position to make such a choice), F10 M5 is an still impressive package. Yeah, it's best 7 series BMW made. You don't expect car of that size to be nimble and toss-able, right?
unclemat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 08:20 PM   #9
Gixhost
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 180111
Join Date: May 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Land of Ham, MD
Vehicle:
* 2004.114.3 STi
Aspen White

Default

I can't wait for the next M3 and the move back to an I6...should have stayed that way...leave the V8s or preferably, high strung V10s to the M5.
Gixhost is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 08:24 PM   #10
SoapBox
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 204578
Join Date: Mar 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Philadelphia
Vehicle:
S54 M3, N54 135i
In another life: REX8

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gixhost View Post
I can't wait for the next M3 and the move back to an I6...should have stayed that way...leave the V8s or preferably, high strung V10s to the M5.
You'd rather have a turbo 6 than the N/A V8?

Get out.

And this is coming from someone who has an S54, and is buying an N54. The M3 is a better car with a screaming N/A engine. That's what it's about. That's what raises hairs on the back of your neck.

BMW is famous for its buttery smooth, linear, snappy throttle N/A engines. While their turob power plants are good, and more potent, they don't feel like the BMW I6s that made the name.

Last edited by SoapBox; 05-08-2013 at 08:47 PM.
SoapBox is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 08:26 PM   #11
SoapBox
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 204578
Join Date: Mar 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Philadelphia
Vehicle:
S54 M3, N54 135i
In another life: REX8

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemat View Post
F10 M5 is an still impressive package.
I don't find anything about it impressive. They made it larger and heavier. They ruined its steering. They put a massive engine in it, and sticky tires. None of that is impressive. It's not a drivers car anymore. Dynamically speaking, it's a noticeable step backwards compared to the E60. What is impressive about that?

That's what BMW was good at; keeping cars, even their bigger ones, feeling nimble, feeling sportier than the competition. That is no longer the case. Congrats BMW, you built an AMG, and an inferior one at that. How is that impressive?

The new 3 series follows suit. Have you seen the reviews? Or driven one? BMW is taking everything that made them distinct, and leaving it behind. Other cars are out BMWing BMW.

Last edited by SoapBox; 05-08-2013 at 08:43 PM.
SoapBox is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 09:48 PM   #12
hkerekes
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 66310
Join Date: Jul 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Removing passenger seat
Vehicle:
2012 Orange

Default

High revving NA V8 > anything boosted.
hkerekes is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-08-2013, 10:19 PM   #13
Len
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 39937
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: SF Bay Area
Vehicle:
2011 328i 6MT
LMB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by unclemat View Post
it's best 7 series BMW made.
Yup, pretty much, for better or worse.
Len is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 09:36 AM   #14
4wdwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72042
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Sunshine
Vehicle:
2002 WRX impreza
WRB "Blue Mammoth"

Default

The new M5 is way better than the old V10. All the reviews claim it's is more proper M car than the previous version.

The previous version was criticized with no torque, crappy gearbox, and average handling. Also that era of M5s were ugly.

While I will miss the N/A on the next M3, but gotta say the only real M3 is the e30.
4wdwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 09:46 AM   #15
WRXHillClimb
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 206907
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Abq, NM
Vehicle:
2014 EvoX GSR
2005 S2000 Track Car

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkerekes View Post
High revving NA I6 > anything boosted.
The I6 was the iconic pinnacle of the entire bmw line. It's perfectly naturally balanced. An elegant piece of engineering that will slowly get nixed from all of them, making BMW just another car company.
WRXHillClimb is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 09:50 AM   #16
SoapBox
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 204578
Join Date: Mar 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Philadelphia
Vehicle:
S54 M3, N54 135i
In another life: REX8

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4wdwrx View Post
The new M5 is way better than the old V10. All the reviews claim it's is more proper M car than the previous version.
Are you high?

The reviews say the exact opposite.

Quote:
When BMW made the decision to share F10 components with the larger 7 Series, dumpy 5 Series Gran Turismo, and the orca-like Rolls-Royce Ghost, it screwed up. Because of the larger platform siblings, the parts in every 5 Series are heavier -- therefore, more dynamically compromised -- than they should have been. BMW, instead of toeing its well-worn Ultimate Driving Machine line, erred on the side of luxury. As a result, the fifth-generation M5 just isn't the supersedan we all expected it to be. Which brings up another point: I really like the new M5. Granted, it's not a very good M vehicle, but it is an outstanding long-haul luxury yacht. Should you ever be faced with a several-hundred-mile journey, you'd be very pleased to be at the helm of the F10 M5. Just stay off the back roads.


BMW's M Division was saddled with the unenviable task of teaching a pig ballet. They did good, but for the purposes of this comparison, not good enough.

Quote:
The M5 has three steering modes, but there's no Goldilocks setting. Comfort mode is vague to the point of why'd they even bother? Sport mode offers more heft, but still feels imprecise. The heavy Sport+ mode (don't you love how original the Germans are with their nomenclature?) offers the best steering feel, but everyone agreed it was still too artificial. Which is a crying shame, as for decades the whole reason you went with a BMW was because of the world-class steering.


Quote:
Did BMW have to try to make the steering this numb? They must have hired someone from outside the company to teach them to dumb down a car like this. Normal BMW steering is like running your hands over the ground -- you feel all the buildup in lateral load, you feel the weight jacking in front. None of that is here in the F10 M5." Febbo and I aren't alone in our assessment. From Scott Evans: "Apparently, even the M division can't do much with BMW's new power steering system. It's comparatively numb and oddly weighted, too light in lesser modes and too heavy in hard-core mode.

Quote:
Nevertheless, the Bavarian is numb and quiet in comparison to the verve and vigor that is the CTS-V.
Quote:
After the initial hot laps in the M5, we were unimpressed. It feels ponderous in tight corners and the chassis only provides a modicum of communication
Quote:
The best example of exactly how isolated the driver is from the road are the brakes. Massive calipers clamp on floating rotors when decelerating from 110 mph down the back straight, the ABS is fully invoked and there is nothing felt. No pulsations in the brake pedal, no yaw resistance in the superbly thick steering wheel, and only a hint at the tires' grip limit coming through the seat of the pants. To drive the M5 fast requires trust in the electronics and being sensitive to the gentlest of feedback in the steering wheel and chassis. Where the CTS-V does little to hide its performance-car roots, the M5 buries them under a mound of opulent isolation.
Yeah, sounds jusst like what M cars are all about(!)

Don't get me wrong, again, it's a hugely capable car, numbers wise. But that is NOT what Ms ahve been about. They were always underpowered compared to the AMGs, etc. But no one cared, because they drove better. That's what BMW did, a great chassis, great steering, and a slick if not overly-powerful engine.

Again, they've CLEARLY lost that edge, replacing those attributes with more HP, more isolation, and more electronics.

How on earth you can say that's "more of an M car" is beyond ridiculous.

Last edited by SoapBox; 05-09-2013 at 10:01 AM.
SoapBox is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 10:06 AM   #17
Calamity Jesus
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 44501
Join Date: Oct 2003
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: in a minefield of caddishness.
Vehicle:
1984 "Skeletor from
"He-Man"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by hkerekes View Post
High revving NA V8 > anything boosted.
Quote:
Originally Posted by WRXHillClimb View Post
The I6 was the iconic pinnacle of the entire bmw line. It's perfectly naturally balanced. An elegant piece of engineering that will slowly get nixed from all of them, making BMW just another car company.
Psh.. S14 2.0L 4 cylinder... still better than even the I6s.
Calamity Jesus is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 10:38 AM   #18
4wdwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72042
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Sunshine
Vehicle:
2002 WRX impreza
WRB "Blue Mammoth"

Default

@Soupbox

Refinement is going to be expected in more modern cars, just like e60 compared to it's previous model e39. e60 was huge and numb compared to the e39, and it's not available with a proper manual, something they brought back.

I think the F10 is a better e39 successor than the e60. and what an ugly car it was.
4wdwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 11:07 AM   #19
SoapBox
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 204578
Join Date: Mar 2009
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Philadelphia
Vehicle:
S54 M3, N54 135i
In another life: REX8

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 4wdwrx View Post
@Soupbox

Refinement is going to be expected in more modern cars
A more numb driving experience is not refinement. They indicate, in fact, that several of its other competitors (Porsche GTS, CTSV, etc.) offer better driving experiences, and not at the expense of refinement.

You're, of course, entitled to your opinion. But I just can't fathom how you can considers a larger, more isolated, more numb M5 "more of an M car".

Again, that's EXACTLY the opposite of what made M cars different. Perhaps you'd give up some power for a better driving experience. BMW did the opposite.

It's the same **** they did with the new 3. The same bad reviews are coming in for that car now too. It's a change in philosophy at BMW. That's fine, they'll sell more cars. But not everyone has to like it.

BMWs aren't special driver's cars anymore. There are alternatives that drive better. Which is sad to say. That is what made then special, and loved by people who love driving.

You ever hear that V10, with an open exhaust, at full chant? That's the thing dreams are made of. Who dreams about this new M5? And why? Artificial engine sounds pumped into the speakers? ****ty chassis/steering feel? Wow, thanks a pantload chet.

Again, it's fast, huge, isolated and soft. Those are not really M car traits. Why didn't they just call it a 560?

Last edited by SoapBox; 05-09-2013 at 11:14 AM.
SoapBox is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 12:05 PM   #20
SCRAPPYDO
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 873
Join Date: Feb 2000
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Just outside of Houston TX
Vehicle:
2013 F150 King Ranch
Datsun 71 240Z & 68 2000

Default

That is why my friends, I am looking into one of these after it gets one year old...
Supercharged Jag XF

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=86Kwccn9bqI
SCRAPPYDO is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 12:09 PM   #21
CubeShin
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 182282
Join Date: Jun 2008
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: AZ
Vehicle:
2012 WRX STI Sedan
SWP

Default

I'm with SoapBox on this one here.

Unfortunately a lot of external factors are driving companies like BMW to change; and IMO, change for the worse. I was especially sad to see the M3 is stepping down displacement and replacing it with boost. I think a lot of things like MPGs and environmental requirements are driving this, but I've always thought the M lineup should be held to a higher standard.

Oh well.
CubeShin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 06:56 PM   #22
sotti
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 33474
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Seattle
Vehicle:
04 M3
Imola Red

Default

Not worried about the turbos. BMW does have a long history of making great turbo cars (2002tii, F1 cars in the 80s).

Am worried about the car getting bigger and more isolated.
sotti is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-09-2013, 09:23 PM   #23
4wdwrx
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 72042
Join Date: Oct 2004
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: Sunshine
Vehicle:
2002 WRX impreza
WRB "Blue Mammoth"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
A more numb driving experience is not refinement. They indicate, in fact, that several of its other competitors (Porsche GTS, CTSV, etc.) offer better driving experiences, and not at the expense of refinement.

You're, of course, entitled to your opinion. But I just can't fathom how you can considers a larger, more isolated, more numb M5 "more of an M car".

Again, that's EXACTLY the opposite of what made M cars different. Perhaps you'd give up some power for a better driving experience. BMW did the opposite.

It's the same **** they did with the new 3. The same bad reviews are coming in for that car now too. It's a change in philosophy at BMW. That's fine, they'll sell more cars. But not everyone has to like it.

BMWs aren't special driver's cars anymore. There are alternatives that drive better. Which is sad to say. That is what made then special, and loved by people who love driving.

You ever hear that V10, with an open exhaust, at full chant? That's the thing dreams are made of. Who dreams about this new M5? And why? Artificial engine sounds pumped into the speakers? ****ty chassis/steering feel? Wow, thanks a pantload chet.

Again, it's fast, huge, isolated and soft. Those are not really M car traits. Why didn't they just call it a 560?
I know what you mean, but if all the current cars were compared to their predecessors, none are as involved as their ancestors.

They were more "focused" because the were raw because the technology and car design was not as mature. In 5 years, people will argue about how focused the F10 is compared to F20 (or whatever). I remember when the e60 was criticized as diluted, large, heavy, and isolated compared to the e39.

It always happens.

Besides, the M5 is not a real M "Motorsport" car. Only real M cars in my opinion and I'm sure many BMW enthusiasts are the e30 M3, M1, M3 GT3, and some other homologation cars which I don't know.
4wdwrx is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:34 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.