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Old 08-19-2012, 01:24 PM   #26
Len
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The author of the original article is kind of a BMW prick isn't he. The first paragraph is all about how he shamefully owns a Toyota minivan, which he named the "Anti-Christ" presumably because it's so unbecoming of his X5 driving self. I would've thought that he only drove an E30 M3 and a Caterham or something. "Anti-Christ" my ass.

As for FWD BMWs, I think it's in principle defensible. You can take the point of view that BMW should only make types of cars that can be truly sporty, but you could also say that as long as they try to make every model the sportiest choice in class, they can expand into mundane categories as well without ruining the brand image, very much like what Porsche has done.

My problem is that BMW seems not even committed to making their cars the sportiest in class any more. The new 5 series is a very nice car that nonetheless is not that sporty any more, and the 1 series also is not nearly as fun as it could've been. So if this MPV thing is going to be surprisingly fun for an MPV, that would make it more or less ok in my book, but I even doubt that would be true.
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Old 08-19-2012, 05:22 PM   #27
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We have a carrier because someone gave it to us.. we use it for multi-stop trips around town where getting the baby buckled and unbuckled at every stop would significantly increase the amount of time we spend running errands.

The rest of the time she's strapped into a convertible seat that's far safer, cushier, takes up much less room and will last until she's 70lbs. It actually fits in the back of our MCS (oh, look.. a FWD BMW!) with enough room for me (6'2") to sit in front of it for short trips without complaining. My wife (5'4") has legroom to spare.

It's a Maxi-Cosi Pria 70.. and yes, she actually gets buckled in when we aren't just doing a test fit. There's about a 1" gap between the Pria 70 and the front seat in those pics.

Our other car is a Mazda5.. plenty of room for a couple with a baby, baby accouterment and a 60lb dog. I wouldn't give this BMW a second glance if it doesn't have sliding doors.. I don't understand the hatred for them by automakers.. but they're the main reason to own a van, IMO. I'm looking at you, R-class. Who wants the looks of a van without the utility?

I'm still waiting for Subaru to wake up and build a proper minivan. Other than a BRZ, there's nothing I'd buy from them right now.
CJ - is that angle OK? I only ask because my Chicco Snug Fit 30 pretty much has my daughter resting on her back when properly leveled in the car. I haven't studied it a ton, but I was under the impression that infants mostly needed to be laid down. I do like the look of that seat, though. If it fits as well as it looks, I'll certainly jump on something like that... especially if I get my FR-S/BRZ next year. Have you happened to do any test fitting in a BRZ or FR-S?
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Old 06-23-2013, 11:14 PM   #28
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We're getting a new family hauler and its down the a Toyota Sienna XLE AWD with Nav versus a Ford Flex.

The Flex with Ecoboost is pretty impressive but not cheap. With bells and whistles we are looking at around $40K versus $34K or so for the Toyota.

Our Mazda MPV has been great but at 10 years old its starting to have a few issues. Still the only minivan to ever be introduced by the manufacturer at an Autocross....
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:07 AM   #29
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Check actual prices as you can get as much as $9k off on the Flex. I've seen MSRP of $52k listed for $43k. The one thing that irritates me about the Flex options is DVD function which I find a highly desirable option for families is basically an aftermarket add-on.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:57 AM   #30
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lol BMW has become a joke.
QFT. My former favorite car company has thus lost all it's character and auto enthusiast values.
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:12 AM   #31
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Check actual prices as you can get as much as $9k off on the Flex. I've seen MSRP of $52k listed for $43k. The one thing that irritates me about the Flex options is DVD function which I find a highly desirable option for families is basically an aftermarket add-on.
iPad + headrest mount FTW. I no longer buy DVDs or Blurays. I purchase all of my movies on iTunes and either download to the iPad or stream to my Apple TV. The ability to draw, play games, or web-browse makes it far better than a $1000 DVD system.
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Old 06-24-2013, 12:19 PM   #32
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We're getting a new family hauler and its down the a Toyota Sienna XLE AWD with Nav versus a Ford Flex.
Thanks for sharing. What does that have to do with a year-old thread about BMW?
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Old 06-24-2013, 01:36 PM   #33
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Thanks for sharing. What does that have to do with a year-old thread about BMW?
Thanks for sharing your thanks - about minivans. Now excuse me while I go make some more children.
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Now in 2012, there’s a new Toyota Sienna Limited, “The second coming of the Anti-Christ”, sharing the space in the garage with my X5.
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:34 PM   #34
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iPad + headrest mount FTW. I no longer buy DVDs or Blurays. I purchase all of my movies on iTunes and either download to the iPad or stream to my Apple TV. The ability to draw, play games, or web-browse makes it far better than a $1000 DVD system.
Then all the kids fight over the ipad and they can't plug in a gaming system into one for the 5 hr ride to the beach while the other watches a movie we already own on DVD. I have a theater at home and need the quality blu-ray provides with DTS-MA 7.1 audio so I'll continue to buy discs. The DVD that comes with it goes into the mini-van for just such occasions.

The kids already have ipod touches or old disconnected iphones, DS's and what not.

Again nothing to do with a BMW mini-van but there you go.
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Old 06-24-2013, 04:38 PM   #35
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Then all the kids fight over the ipad and they can't plug in a gaming system into one for the 5 hr ride to the beach while the other watches a movie we already own on DVD. I have a theater at home and need the quality blu-ray provides with DTS-MA 7.1 audio so I'll continue to buy discs. The DVD that comes with it goes into the mini-van for just such occasions.

The kids already have ipod touches or old disconnected iphones, DS's and what not.

Again nothing to do with a BMW mini-van but there you go.
Disney is no longer offering DVDs with their Blurays. That will spread to other movie makers as well.

Why do you need to plug in a game system when the iPad is a game system? With iOS 7, there will be aftermarket gamepad support. I'm sure android already supports it.

DVD systems in a new car just seems like dying tech to me.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:54 PM   #36
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/DVD systems in a new car just seems like dying tech to me.
I'm even debating getting the Nav system since an iPad with Waze is better in most aspects. But they marry some of the other technology into the option package.
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Old 06-24-2013, 05:59 PM   #37
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We're getting a new family hauler and its down the a Toyota Sienna XLE AWD with Nav versus a Ford Flex.

The Flex with Ecoboost is pretty impressive but not cheap. With bells and whistles we are looking at around $40K versus $34K or so for the Toyota.
I thought that van was closer to $37k? I've been trying to talk the wife into a mini van for a few years, but she hates the image. I personally find the "image" of an SUV far more offensive and ironic, but she's the one who drives the kids around 90% of the time.
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:22 PM   #38
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I thought that van was closer to $37k? I've been trying to talk the wife into a mini van for a few years, but she hates the image. I personally find the "image" of an SUV far more offensive and ironic, but she's the one who drives the kids around 90% of the time.
We rented one and that was the end of my wife's Outback.

There's also the auto manufacturer's research on who buys minivans versus SUV's.

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According to market research conducted by the country's leading automakers, Bradsher reports, SUV buyers tend to be "insecure and vain. They are frequently nervous about their marriages and uncomfortable about parenthood. They often lack confidence in their driving skills. Above all, they are apt to be self-centered and self-absorbed, with little interest in their neighbors and communities. They are more restless, more sybaritic, and less social than most Americans are. They tend to like fine restaurants a lot more than off-road driving, seldom go to church and have limited interest in doing volunteer work to help others."

He says, too, that SUV drivers generally don't care about anyone else's kids but their own, are very concerned with how other people see them rather than with what's practical, and they tend to want to control or have control over the people around them.

...most SUV customers over the past decade hail from a group that is the embodiment of American narcissism: baby boomers. Affluent, and often socially liberal, baby boomers have embraced the four-wheel-drive SUV as a symbol of their ability to defy the conventions of old age, of their independence and "outdoorsiness," making the off-road vehicle a force to be reckoned with on the American blacktop.

But as Bradsher declares in his title, this baby boomer fetish is considerably more harmful than the mere annoyance of yet another Rolling Stones tour or the endless commercials for Propecia. In their attempt to appear youthful and hip, SUV owners have filled the American highways with vehicles that exact a distinctly human cost, frequently killing innocent drivers who would have survived a collision with a lesser vehicle. Bradsher quotes auto execs who concede that the self-centered lifestyle of SUV buyers is apparent in "their willingness to endanger other motorists so as to achieve small improvements in their personal safety."
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Old 06-24-2013, 06:30 PM   #39
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Well I think that assessment is a bit harsh. My wife would MUCH rather be driving a normal car, but the fact that you have to keep your kids, and their friends, in a car seat until they are graduated from college pretty much means you have to buy a van or SUV or buy car seats that are very uncomfortable for the kids. Let's face it, mini vans aren't much better for the environment than a cute ute. We get 25mpg in our SUV on highway trips to Tahoe.
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Old 06-24-2013, 10:22 PM   #40
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Originally Posted by design1stcode2nd View Post

What my wife really wants in a new VW bus, a modern, full of amenities just like this concept that they never made:



So instead we get a rebadged Dodge Caravan.
The main issue with the Bus / Vanagon is the lack of space between the bumper and passenger compartment to meet current safety standards. Even that one with the engine in the front has so little space. Why do all the minivans have a big pointy nose that sticks out so far? Because you need one to have enough of a crumple zone to pass safety regs that didn't exist in the VW Bus or even the Vanagon days.
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Old 06-25-2013, 07:46 AM   #41
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Well I think that assessment is a bit harsh. My wife would MUCH rather be driving a normal car, but the fact that you have to keep your kids, and their friends, in a car seat until they are graduated from college pretty much means you have to buy a van or SUV or buy car seats that are very uncomfortable for the kids. Let's face it, mini vans aren't much better for the environment than a cute ute. We get 25mpg in our SUV on highway trips to Tahoe.
And last year driving from Niagara Falls to Boston we got 26.9 mpg with three adults and three kids and luggage.

Everyone is trying to "greenwash" their products and the auto manufacturers have developed a huge number of crossover models that provide all those emotional cues SUV buyers want without driving so poorly or getting such a terrible mileage. And the third row is too small once your kids get over about 4'6" and if you use the third row there's hardly any storage room.

Sliding doors are far preferable for kids and the interior volume of minivans is as much as double. We have three kids and yesterday we had five kids on a trip. That's typical of minivan use.

Here's the research on minivan buyers in contrast.

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....minivan buyers tend to be more comfortable than sport utility buyers with being married; sport utility buyers are more commonly concerned with still feeling sexy, and like the idea that they could use their vehicles to start dating again...

Minivan buyers are also less likely than sport utility buyers to have reservations about being parents. ''Sport utility people say, 'I already have two kids, I don't need 20,' '' Mr. Bostwick said. ''Then we talk to the people who have minivans and they say, 'I don't have two kids, I have 20 -- all the kids in the neighborhood.' ''

Such psychological factors play a bigger role in the dividing line between minivan and sport utility customers than in the division between any other segments of the auto market, he added.

....Both groups of buyers say they want to be ''in control'' in a vehicle, yet mean completely different things by this, the research found.

''Minivan people want to be in control in terms of safety, being able to park and maneuver in traffic, being able to get elderly people in and out,'' Mr. Schaafsma said. ''S.U.V. owners want to be more like, 'I'm in control of the people around me.' '' This is an important reason why seats are mounted higher in sport utilities than in minivans, he said.

....sport utility buyers placed a lower value than minivan buyers on showing courtesy on the road. Sport utility buyers were more likely to agree with the statement, ''I'm a great driver,'' and to say that they drove faster than the average motorist.

Last edited by Garandman; 06-25-2013 at 08:32 AM.
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Old 06-25-2013, 10:19 AM   #42
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Disney is no longer offering DVDs with their Blurays. That will spread to other movie makers as well.

Why do you need to plug in a game system when the iPad is a game system? With iOS 7, there will be aftermarket gamepad support. I'm sure android already supports it.

DVD systems in a new car just seems like dying tech to me.
An ipad doesn't run mariokart, mario party and so forth. My kids like to take the gamecube or wii with them and then we use it on rainy days on vacation. Only so many board games the kids want to play and we play together.

Many people are going to streaming and tablets a lot cut the cord and don't even use cable or satellite, I'm not one of those.

Once you can have ubiquitous wifi with unlimited downloads everywhere then I can see streaming a great deal to the in car system. Or when my kids are older and have their own tablets/phones. But for little ones popping in the dvd and having a couple hours of bliss during the long drive is more than worth it.
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Old 06-25-2013, 10:47 AM   #43
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The author of the original article is kind of a BMW prick isn't he. The first paragraph is all about how he shamefully owns a Toyota minivan, which he named the "Anti-Christ" presumably because it's so unbecoming of his X5 driving self. I would've thought that he only drove an E30 M3 and a Caterham or something. "Anti-Christ" my ass.
Yeah, to me a minivan or SUV are pretty much the same: not much fun to drive, good at moving larger amounts of people and/or stuff. If BMW sees a profitable market for these cars and can make a quality product, then bully for them.
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:21 PM   #44
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.... but the fact that you have to keep your kids, and their friends, in a car seat until they are graduated from college pretty much means you have to.....

^ that was great
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:50 PM   #45
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^ that was great
Yeah well, it pisses me off!



I fondly remember playing legos in the way back of our families station wagon with my brother and sister. Days before iPads...
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Old 06-25-2013, 12:55 PM   #46
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And last year driving from Niagara Falls to Boston we got 26.9 mpg with three adults and three kids and luggage.
Did you climb 8,000 vertical feet and drive a quarter of your trip through a blizzard?

You're preaching to the choir when it comes to a minivan being a more efficient layout and a better suited tool for the job of hauling a family around. But all this "research" could just as easily be targeted towards folks who buy a turbo charged econobox that gets much worse gas mileage than the non turbo version...you know, pretty much the reason this site exists.
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Old 06-25-2013, 01:12 PM   #47
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But all this "research" could just as easily be targeted towards folks who buy a turbo charged econobox that gets much worse gas mileage than the non turbo version...you know, pretty much the reason this site exists.
Yes and no...

I hear what you're saying about the silliness of turbocharged economy cars, but most of us around here actually do use the extra horsepower on a regular basis. I use it on pretty much every un-clogged entrance ramp I encounter. Sure, some of us delude ourselves into thinking we're Colin McRae, but most of us just enjoy driving something that accelerates a bit harder and corners a bit better than the average econobox.

Lugging around a low range transfer case to soccer practice without ever venturing off-road is a special kind of narcissistic self-delusion.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:01 PM   #48
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Yes and no...

I hear what you're saying about the silliness of turbocharged economy cars, but most of us around here actually do use the extra horsepower on a regular basis. I use it on pretty much every un-clogged entrance ramp I encounter. Sure, some of us delude ourselves into thinking we're Colin McRae, but most of us just enjoy driving something that accelerates a bit harder and corners a bit better than the average econobox.

Lugging around a low range transfer case to soccer practice without ever venturing off-road is a special kind of narcissistic self-delusion.
And the soccer moms get equally as much joy from looking down on everyone in their high center of gravity grocery getter as you do from hitting full boost on a clover leaf.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:19 PM   #49
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Did you climb 8,000 vertical feet and drive a quarter of your trip through a blizzard?////
No. But if you get to post a one-time best MPG, than so do I!

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Yes and no...

I hear what you're saying about the silliness of turbocharged economy cars, but most of us around here actually do use the extra horsepower on a regular basis. I use it on pretty much every un-clogged entrance ramp I encounter. /
The Ford Ecoboost cars seem to be selling like hotcakes.

I log all my MPG and have been driving a OBW 3.0R for the last couple of weeks as I hurt my knee. It only got 1-1.5 mpg less than the four cylinder OBW we had prior. Apples-and-oranges as the OBW is bigger, heavier, and has a 5EAT.

Nonetheless I was surprised to find the WRX got better mileage commuting in and out of the city by almost 1mpg. Given the price of Premium I'm not saving money, but it appears the promise of a smaller turbocharged engine saving gas in city traffic is real.
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:28 PM   #50
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No. But if you get to post a one-time best MPG, than so do I!
Pretty much the only road trips we take are to Tahoe. Our Toyotaxus has always returned about 25 give or take 0.5mpg. It's done surprisingly well in the snow, too. I was worried when the electronic nannies aggressively kicked in the first time I drove it in the rain, but in the snow it allows gentle throttle in an oversteer situation to keep the back end from catching up with the front. Definitely doesn't do scoobynuts in the resort parking lots, but if you accidentally overdrive a corner by a bit, it lets you appropriately hang the tail out.
I still want a mini van.
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