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Old 06-26-2013, 11:59 PM   #1
lavid2002
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18.5lb. 93 oct, DP, UP

Default Oil clearances off... What are my options?

Rods seem OK. Crank bearings seem very small though with a lot of out of round measurements.







I have been very meticulous about zeroing my tools. I think my measurements are very accurate. I zeroed the dial bore gauge off the same micrometer that I used to measure the crank to minimize error.


I think my values are spot on. I search the threads for oil clearance threads. I found this
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...=oil+clearance

These are almost the exact same bearings i have, except my bearings read
4b8296H-STD (No X after the H)

I don't think I have extra clearance bearings 0.o

I had my rods reconditioned, and I had my crank polished (It never spun a bearing, I just wanted it polished)

DD car with 300WHP goals.
10mm oil pump

Ideas?

I think I should be shooting for .002" on the mains and .0015" on the rods right???


Thanks guys

-Dave
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Last edited by lavid2002; 06-27-2013 at 04:29 AM.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:55 AM   #2
lavid2002
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I think I need to split my block and re torque.

Last edited by lavid2002; 06-27-2013 at 04:28 AM.
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Old 06-27-2013, 12:55 PM   #3
lavid2002
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Bump...
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:06 PM   #4
aboothman
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Maybe get some .001" extra clearance and swap some bearing halves around. Should be able to get close to what you want.

I would shoot for the opposite BTW, .002" rods and .0015" mains, but that is just me.
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Old 06-27-2013, 01:18 PM   #5
JayMeagher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aboothman View Post
Maybe get some .001" extra clearance and swap some bearing halves around. Should be able to get close to what you want.

I would shoot for the opposite BTW, .002" rods and .0015" mains, but that is just me.
+1

That tight rod concerns me a bit. .0005 is a decent spread for the same size housing bore and bearing.

Thanks.
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Old 06-27-2013, 03:16 PM   #6
fastblueufo
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So what number is the rod clearance and main clearance for 90* from centerline of the cases? You have them numbered but what number would be your centerline measurment? And why are you using averages on each journal? Since the bearings are eccentric your most important clearance is at the center of the bearing. You need to check the journal for out of roundness with no bearing shells in the journal.
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Old 06-27-2013, 07:41 PM   #7
lavid2002
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I was wondering why there was so much deviation in the bearing. I read some articles about eccentricity. This is great to hear because my measurements at 3 o clock to 9 o clock position were the ones that were the spot on measurements.

If my bare block measures out good, do I have to mic all around the bearing? I don't like dancing around on that bearing with the bore gauge more than I have to.

The numbers that read front 9 / rear 9 are the 3 o clock to 9 o clock measurement on the main bearings.

Last edited by lavid2002; 06-27-2013 at 08:03 PM.
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Old 06-28-2013, 01:58 AM   #8
lavid2002
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Re-measured my rods now that I have a few hours behind the dial bore gauge. Here's what I got measuring only from the 12 o'clock positon (No averaging mess)


Also, re torqued the block and took my measurements again. I got more garbage. I pulled the block apart, pulled the bearings, and re-torqued it up again. Here's what I got.



See all the error in the thrust bearing? (Bearing 5)
I thought this was big enough of a deal to warrant a quick video.




I appreciate everyones help

-David Brandt
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:35 AM   #9
Bamofo
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I didnt notice the torque sequence or procedure you used to tighten the block halves together. Did you just do the 4 on one side and 6 on the other or did you also do all the case bolts going up and around? are we using a std X torque setting or doing it by one of the 4 manuals configurations. I would bet that this will have a lot to do with the actual numbers your getting. Just curious :-)
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Old 06-28-2013, 02:58 PM   #10
lavid2002
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I thought I was torquing them properly. But now that I look at the manual, it's very different. Let me split it again and do it exactly like this



Also, I'm using all the bolts except the 10mm by the coolant o-ring.
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Old 06-29-2013, 12:11 AM   #11
lavid2002
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Alright, I torqued everything up using the correct torque procedure. Followed it to a T. I knew it made a difference... but now I know it makes a difference! A big one! Wow...

I also plasti gauged my rods and mains. Results are as follows. Looks like I am at a stand still here until I receive my ACL HX (+.001") bearings. I will have to half shell a lot of these since the clearances are so close to being right.

-Dave

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Old 06-29-2013, 09:38 AM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lavid2002 View Post
Alright, I torqued everything up using the correct torque procedure. Followed it to a T. I knew it made a difference... but now I know it makes a difference! A big one! Wow...

I also plasti gauged my rods and mains. Results are as follows. Looks like I am at a stand still here until I receive my ACL HX (+.001") bearings. I will have to half shell a lot of these since the clearances are so close to being right.

-Dave


That looks pretty normal, the front and rear grow a bit with some heat.

You're not planning on splitting up the main bearings are you?

Thanks
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Old 06-29-2013, 02:00 PM   #13
lavid2002
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Could you elaborate on how the front and rear grow with heat?

I just ordered some .001"+ bearings (same mfg, same style). Since these values are close, I planned on adding one shell of the +.001" to journals 1,4, and 5 to see where it gets me.

I thought I wanted 1.5 thou on the mains? .8 is close to half that...
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Old 06-29-2013, 04:25 PM   #14
Serkan
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How do you get 0 clearance. Those charts you make doesn't make sense to me.
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Old 06-29-2013, 05:56 PM   #15
JayMeagher
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lavid2002 View Post
Could you elaborate on how the front and rear grow with heat?

I just ordered some .001"+ bearings (same mfg, same style). Since these values are close, I planned on adding one shell of the +.001" to journals 1,4, and 5 to see where it gets me.

I thought I wanted 1.5 thou on the mains? .8 is close to half that...
Because the block changes dimension as it heats up. I'll see 4-6 tenths before 120f.

I don't recommend swapping bearing halfs in the case. While I appreciate your approach I think your searching for a unicorn. The front and rear mains expand more than 2-4 do, Put the crank in the block and turn it, with the measured clearance you have if the crank turns well let it ride. In a perfect world your crank would have zero run out, depending on run out you may have to run more clearance even though there is some flex in it once it's riding on the oil.

Pay attention to how it turns and starts to turn with the rod journals in the 3 and 9 position VS how it feels at 6 and 12 o clock.

Thanks
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:18 PM   #16
lavid2002
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Quote:
How do you get 0 clearance. Those charts you make doesn't make sense to me.
It doesn't matter what the dial bore gauge is zeroed at. I zeroed the dial bore gauge and measured the rod journals with no bearings in them. That chart is simply to check for taper and round.

Quote:
I don't recommend swapping bearing halfs in the case.
Why not? I read that it was alright if I used bearings from the same manufacture.

I'll torque the block back up tonight with some oil and see how the crank spins.

I appreciate the help and advice.

_Dave

Last edited by lavid2002; 06-29-2013 at 11:03 PM.
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Old 06-30-2013, 11:18 PM   #17
lavid2002
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This makes me feel a bit better about my specs.

I am going to go see how the crank rotates.

-Dave
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Old 07-10-2013, 09:18 AM   #18
JayMeagher
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How did this work out?
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:32 PM   #19
lavid2002
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I have been out of town. I am coming back on the 12th and my +.001" bearings will be in. I will bolt the block halves up and plasti-gauge it when I get back. I don't think I want to swap bearing halves, but I may pick the best set of bearings for each journal from the +.001 or regular sized bearing sets.

-Dave
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Old 07-16-2013, 10:24 PM   #20
lavid2002
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Slapped my bearings in the block and followed the torque sequence to a T.

Here are my results.
Black = regular bearings
Blue = extra clearance bearings
Orange = My bearing selection from each set.
If I am shooting for .0015 I think these are the bearings I should use.




What do you guys think? I expected +.001" bearings to actually be .001" larger all around.

My factory manual says that main bearing clearance should be .0004~.0012 with a maximum of .0016

I know if I clearance the bearings too small I risk spinning a bearing, and if I clearance them too large I will get lower oil pressure, less oil at the rods, and the crank will effectively touch a smaller portion of the bearing since the curvature is larger.

Why does everyone on the forum shoot for larger clearances? Is this ideal for a performance build? I have seen some builds where they gap the mains and the rods at .002"


Input?

Thanks Everyone

-Dave
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Old 07-17-2013, 05:00 PM   #21
lavid2002
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Just plasti gauged the rods.
Rods 1,2,and 3 are all right on the money at 2 thousandths.

I plasti gauged rod 4 three times. First time, 1.7~1..8 thou, second and third times I got 1.5 thousandth of an inch.

I don't think 1.5 is anything to write home on. It isn't a little smaller than the 1.5 if anything it's right on it or just a bit smaller (Remember plasti gauge the clearance is larger if it's smaller. I don't want to confuse with my wording)
So I think the rods are good, and I read a few articles on the web about how subarus specs from the factory are conservative. I'd rather run my bearings at 1.5 ish mains and 2 thou rods than use the specs from my first set of bearings. .8 thousandths is tight...

Any input is appreciated. Thanks guys

-Dave
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Old 07-20-2013, 01:09 AM   #22
lavid2002
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Bump.
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Old 07-23-2013, 10:45 AM   #23
lavid2002
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Piston pins were a little snug in the rods, I sent them back to the shop and had them honed out a bit.

I built the block last night, it spins like butter all the way around. Very happy

Slugs go in today. Thanks for the help everyone!

-David
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