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Old 06-27-2013, 09:56 PM   #7401
manitou
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Very good points Ron! There are many variables that can affect flow at the injector especially at the supply side.
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Old 06-27-2013, 10:37 PM   #7402
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Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
No I don't and yes I do know. I meant pump housing not hangar, so sorry for the typo. A buddy of mine has installed this pump in his 09 without much issue and making bigger power. The point I was trying to make was you need more pump. Or maybe Dom is right and your fuel pickup is restricted limiting flow. You don't need more injector for your turbo.



On a VD/ Dynojet setting, 575', 25psi, 55 psi base, 50-100 in 4.19 seconds. He's got plenty of injector. Why do people want to downgrade the ID1k injectors? I hear some say they flow like 900cc at stock BP which is bull****, it's more like 1015cc! They also respond well to increased base pressure if needed. They are some of the best injectors on the market, the best at that size! His solution does not need to be over complicated and he does not need to spend money on parts he already has. He can always add an FPR later if he wants to play with his base pressure.

Nobody said to change injectors. All that was said is that if he changes the pump, rewires, and still has the issue, it is possible that he has an injector issue. It is probably not that, but it is possible.

No one is trying to argue or say that ID injectors don't flow or perform great. All we are saying is that not every set of injectors flow the same on every car at every altitude and every afr ratio target. I mean, at only 565whp VD dynojet my 1250cc injectors (flow tested at almost 1300cc) were logging 90% IDC. It definitely was getting plenty of fuel because my fuel pump was pushing out a max of about 360lph@73.5psi peak pressure, and the injectors at 100% IDC are only capable of flowing just over 310lph. Not to mention I was only targeting 11.8:1.
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Old 06-28-2013, 07:36 AM   #7403
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Nate, when you said lines earlier what lines are you referring to? Feeding the rails? Are you using aftermarket fuel rails? You surely don't need to replace your main lines!
No i was just talking about fabbing lines and fittings for the fpr when i go that route. I am running stock lines and rails and plan to keep it that way if i can.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:55 AM   #7404
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You'll be fine with stock rails.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:06 AM   #7405
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How much would id2000s on stock hardlines with a walbro 465 e85 version pump be good for? I was seeing 50-55 psi base pressure with an aero 340 pump hardwired with id1000s. Id1000s and the aero 340 made near 600 whp (dynojet) at 92% idc on race gas that flows like pump gas. Would id2000s and the e85 walbro 465 pump hardwired support at least 600 whp on e85? I am running a vipec. I will be running pump gas 75% of the time and am concerned with driveability and efficiency down low on pump with the 2000s. Maybe an adjustable fpr to bump up base pressure to help with pump gas down low?

Stock hardlines and rails. 2007 STi. Gsc s2 cams. Pte 6266 running 23-25 psi on pump and looking for 28 ish on e85. I run 28.5 on race gas currently.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:15 AM   #7406
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It will be interesting to see what you put down .. our builds are very close. I'm only pushing my ID2Ks to 70% on E85 ... using a 55psi base. .

I don't known what the rails would do for you, but I think youd be good with the new 1300ID if that pump is fine with the base pressure

That is 3/4/5 gear in picture.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:44 AM   #7407
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It's not well documented but questionably documented by some and I'm more inclined to believe ID's published numbers. Let's see you made 600 on the VD Dynojet but that's real, I made 520 VD Dynojet and its optimistic, LOL you're funny!! He's got a 49 lb turbo and he has plenty of injector. Junior made close to 600 Dynojet with an hta82 and turned a 10.8, 132 pass in an XTI using ID1000's.

Still a doubter Ben?

Still this is not the issue creating his lean condition. It's most likely pump/ pump install/ wiring issues.
Holy cow you get defensive. A lot. You seem to think everyone is out to get you and that you must convince everyone that every part you have chosen is the best possible part and none of that can be questioned. You justification is usually because of something Jr. has said or done in the past. I think you need to realize that the power numbers you quote are fairly high for the setup you are running, and that you don't need to jump in and try to "defend" every product on your car (even when they aren't being criticized) like it is a personal attack directed at you.

My setup was a 6266 at 30-32psi, Walbro 465, FiveO 1600's, 55psi base pressure and IDC's got up into the mid/high 90's. It's a 73lb/min turbo and it also seems like I was using a lot more fuel than you are. That's all I'm saying. I'm not attacking you. As for the injectors, there have been a lot of posts in the past about the ID 1000 injectors scaling like 900's. Or even like DW 850's. Maybe they had issues, who knows. It just seems to be a very common comment on those injectors. I know you have a little manufacturer's sheet that says they flow more, but it's a business after all. You need to take all advertisements with a grain of salt.

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Originally Posted by amalgrover View Post
Nobody said to change injectors. All that was said is that if he changes the pump, rewires, and still has the issue, it is possible that he has an injector issue. It is probably not that, but it is possible.

No one is trying to argue or say that ID injectors don't flow or perform great. All we are saying is that not every set of injectors flow the same on every car at every altitude and every afr ratio target. I mean, at only 565whp VD dynojet my 1250cc injectors (flow tested at almost 1300cc) were logging 90% IDC. It definitely was getting plenty of fuel because my fuel pump was pushing out a max of about 360lph@73.5psi peak pressure, and the injectors at 100% IDC are only capable of flowing just over 310lph. Not to mention I was only targeting 11.8:1.
Yeah, I think manitou made a bit of a jump in logic there...

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Originally Posted by nate_fisher View Post
No i was just talking about fabbing lines and fittings for the fpr when i go that route. I am running stock lines and rails and plan to keep it that way if i can.
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post
You'll be fine with stock rails.
I had stock rails but I replaced all the lines between the firewall and the rails, and also the lines inbetween the factory rails. All -6AN.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 05_wRex View Post
How much would id2000s on stock hardlines with a walbro 465 e85 version pump be good for? I was seeing 50-55 psi base pressure with an aero 340 pump hardwired with id1000s. Id1000s and the aero 340 made near 600 whp (dynojet) at 92% idc on race gas that flows like pump gas. Would id2000s and the e85 walbro 465 pump hardwired support at least 600 whp on e85? I am running a vipec. I will be running pump gas 75% of the time and am concerned with driveability and efficiency down low on pump with the 2000s. Maybe an adjustable fpr to bump up base pressure to help with pump gas down low?

Stock hardlines and rails. 2007 STi. Gsc s2 cams. Pte 6266 running 23-25 psi on pump and looking for 28 ish on e85. I run 28.5 on race gas currently.
It should easily be able to support 600WHP on E85. Not sure how well it will drive on pump though. You may have to idle rich and then you'll probably suck through gas.
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Old 06-28-2013, 09:56 AM   #7408
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 05_wRex View Post
How much would id2000s on stock hardlines with a walbro 465 e85 version pump be good for? I was seeing 50-55 psi base pressure with an aero 340 pump hardwired with id1000s. Id1000s and the aero 340 made near 600 whp (dynojet) at 92% idc on race gas that flows like pump gas. Would id2000s and the e85 walbro 465 pump hardwired support at least 600 whp on e85? I am running a vipec. I will be running pump gas 75% of the time and am concerned with driveability and efficiency down low on pump with the 2000s. Maybe an adjustable fpr to bump up base pressure to help with pump gas down low?

Stock hardlines and rails. 2007 STi. Gsc s2 cams. Pte 6266 running 23-25 psi on pump and looking for 28 ish on e85. I run 28.5 on race gas currently.
Like everyone says yes you will have plenty of fuel.


I have a hardwired 465lph walbro, stock rails and regulator, fiveO 2200cc injectors and a PTE 6466 pushing 28-29psi with low 70s IDC. Is probably good for 700whp..
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:04 PM   #7409
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I need your pump Juan :P I like what those pumps do on a somewhat stock fuel system!
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Old 06-28-2013, 12:26 PM   #7410
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Originally Posted by xluben View Post
It should easily be able to support 600WHP on E85. Not sure how well it will drive on pump though. You may have to idle rich and then you'll probably suck through gas.
Ya, that's kinda what I was worried about. Im on a vipec so I can set pump duty higher and set base pressure in the 50s. Hopefully that will help out with idle and low load on pump.

Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post

Like everyone says yes you will have plenty of fuel.

I have a hardwired 465lph walbro, stock rails and regulator, fiveO 2200cc injectors and a PTE 6466 pushing 28-29psi with low 70s IDC. Is probably good for 700whp..
Maybe I'll throw em in there and just find out. Haha.
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Old 06-28-2013, 04:40 PM   #7411
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My set of ID1000s on my car flow less than comparable 900s. Tuning the scaling was very disappointing, working off of known MAF scaling. I'm sure there are lots of different sets that are all over the place. Anyways, you're all right, it's stupid to argue over it. If you're hitting your AFR targets in the cold, and holding steady fuel pressure, then you're wasting your time worrying about fixing something that is not broken. If you need more injector or more pump, then those are easy upgrades to install and support. Now if suspension geometry could be so simple...
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Old 06-28-2013, 05:03 PM   #7412
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It's because you are using the injector scale to compensate for other parameters you don't understand.
If you're using Rom raider, then what you think is an injector scale isn't.

There is so much more to injectors than most people think and there is so much more to how the ecu determines injector size than just a block that says 550.
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Old 06-28-2013, 06:52 PM   #7413
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Edit never mind I am going to get the e85 walbro and if any one wants one they are $154 shipped with install kits on ebay.

Last edited by nate_fisher; 06-28-2013 at 07:21 PM.
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Old 06-28-2013, 07:32 PM   #7414
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Edit never mind I am going to get the e85 walbro and if any one wants one they are $154 shipped with install kits on ebay.
I got the 255 off RSD for 100, no install kit and it works just fine...

Sorry if this is not necessary to the discussion just thought I'd put it out there.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:08 PM   #7415
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^Not really relevant but thank you anyway.
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Old 06-28-2013, 08:56 PM   #7416
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Originally Posted by xluben View Post
Holy cow you get defensive. A lot. You seem to think everyone is out to get you and that you must convince everyone that every part you have chosen is the best possible part and none of that can be questioned. You justification is usually because of something Jr. has said or done in the past. I think you need to realize that the power numbers you quote are fairly high for the setup you are running, and that you don't need to jump in and try to "defend" every product on your car (even when they aren't being criticized) like it is a personal attack directed at you.

My setup was a 6266 at 30-32psi, Walbro 465, FiveO 1600's, 55psi base pressure and IDC's got up into the mid/high 90's. It's a 73lb/min turbo and it also seems like I was using a lot more fuel than you are. That's all I'm saying. I'm not attacking you. As for the injectors, there have been a lot of posts in the past about the ID 1000 injectors scaling like 900's. Or even like DW 850's. Maybe they had issues, who knows. It just seems to be a very common comment on those injectors. I know you have a little manufacturer's sheet that says they flow more, but it's a business after all. You need to take all advertisements with a grain of salt.
Very interesting post here! How is what I said being defensive? Do you have any first hand experience with the ID1000's? Junior tunes my car, he is also a big proponent of the ID injectors (as is Dom and many others) and has proven you can make fairly big power with their 1000's. I do know that we did make pretty big power with these injectors and a 58 lb. turbo. It surprised all of us really and it was beyond my expectations. How am I always defending what my build and the parts I've chosen? I don't take these as personal attacks at all, the written word can be deceiving sometimes but whatever! It seems that you thought I was attacking you but I was just pointing out some misconceptions about your bench tuning and what the injector Nate has here is capable of. If you did know anything abou these injectors then you would know they don't send a "little manufactures sheet" with them. The data is all online but whatever dude, IDGAS!! There are other factors in making power besides the turbo and injector size, like VE. I'm not going to elaborate on it because I'm sure you know all about it!

You made your 600 WHP with a much bigger turbo (a very good turbo), more injector, also at 55 psi base and 30 psi boost. What you have to remember is that your not really utilizing all of the 6266 with your build and boost. How much of that 73 lb turbo are you using? That high 90's IDC for 1600cc injectors seems kind of high for your output, really!

Back to the issue being discussed here before everyone got so critical of each others posts and that is we all think the Nate needs more fuel supply and not injector. So sorry about this tangent, I'm just stating my position and to say that I did not start the bickering!
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:14 AM   #7417
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Ok guys were all friends here no need to get in a pissing match im sure both your setups are awesome. This is the reason I stay on the forester.org forum but must say there is a lot more info on this site as long as you post in the rite spots.
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Old 06-29-2013, 09:30 AM   #7418
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Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
It's because you are using the injector scale to compensate for other parameters you don't understand.
If you're using Rom raider, then what you think is an injector scale isn't.

There is so much more to injectors than most people think and there is so much more to how the ecu determines injector size than just a block that says 550.
Used a basis of stock injector scalar vs known stock injector flow rates. It should still be a linear increase in the higher RPMs with latency negated and voltage stable. Tuning injectors is nothing new, yet the standard practice did not apply to these, whether in RomRaider or doing the conversion in Cobb ATR. This irritated some of the most competent tuners I know,
which helped me validate this as a real discrepancy. Sure I could have just plugged in 1000 and scaled the MAF, but that makes it more difficult for my own selfish desire to quick compare my maps against others. Since MAF changes everything, I did not want to have to mess with 10% in my head all the time.
What am I missing?
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Old 07-01-2013, 08:50 PM   #7419
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I have a question regarding my 465 e85 pump and don't know were to post so I thought since we were already talking about it I would ask here. The pump is here and I was fiddling with it and notices first the sock that came with it is huge so I will end up having to use the sock off my other pump no big deal.
The real question is wiring the thing up. I purchased a dw hardwire kit which I will hard wire at the harness on the outside of the pump housing. The walbro came with a giant female plug coming off the sealed wires on the pump. I am going to cut that off and solder the wires from the existing plug to the walbro so it will be a plug and play situation. My question is there are two wires on the walbro pink and black and two on the old plug grey and blue. IT looks like the grey is a ground and the blue is power so I am thinking grey would go to black on the walbro and blue to pink on the walbro? Of course there is no directions telling me which wire is a ground and which is 12v power any help would be awesome. I know its all noobish questions and please feel free to flame me if I am way off here.
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:07 PM   #7420
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Originally Posted by nate_fisher View Post
I have a question regarding my 465 e85 pump and don't know were to post so I thought since we were already talking about it I would ask here. The pump is here and I was fiddling with it and notices first the sock that came with it is huge so I will end up having to use the sock off my other pump no big deal.
The real question is wiring the thing up. I purchased a dw hardwire kit which I will hard wire at the harness on the outside of the pump housing. The walbro came with a giant female plug coming off the sealed wires on the pump. I am going to cut that off and solder the wires from the existing plug to the walbro so it will be a plug and play situation. My question is there are two wires on the walbro pink and black and two on the old plug grey and blue. IT looks like the grey is a ground and the blue is power so I am thinking grey would go to black on the walbro and blue to pink on the walbro? Of course there is no directions telling me which wire is a ground and which is 12v power any help would be awesome. I know its all noobish questions and please feel free to flame me if I am way off here.
Look at the socket that goes into it, on the 04-07 STi the pump is the big two wires. On the 04 it is black with yellow stripe.
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Old 07-01-2013, 10:15 PM   #7421
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http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...2353079&page=2
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...roducts_id/829
I would just buy the mail packard plug to fit the female plug on your new pump.

Last edited by manitou; 07-01-2013 at 11:08 PM.
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Old 07-02-2013, 01:50 AM   #7422
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Originally Posted by climberd View Post
Used a basis of stock injector scalar vs known stock injector flow rates. It should still be a linear increase in the higher RPMs with latency negated and voltage stable. Tuning injectors is nothing new, yet the standard practice did not apply to these, whether in RomRaider or doing the conversion in Cobb ATR. This irritated some of the most competent tuners I know,
which helped me validate this as a real discrepancy. Sure I could have just plugged in 1000 and scaled the MAF, but that makes it more difficult for my own selfish desire to quick compare my maps against others. Since MAF changes everything, I did not want to have to mess with 10% in my head all the time.
What am I missing?

First let me apologize for my post in one way. At 3 bar pressure the id1000's are in fact 910cc.

now, aside from that there are many different injector characteristics that many people don't even know exist. The biggest fault people make when doing injector scaling is they assume that injector scaling is absolute. It isn't. In fact, the ecu in these cars does NOT use a number that represents the absolute flow rate of the injector. The number used is the pulse width value that is needed to have stoichiometric fueling at 100%VE at atomospheric pressure at a certain rpm (and I don't know which one). So from the get go, the value changes with the type of fuel you are running. Adjusting MAF scale as some do to adjust for ethanol content is incorrect. Changes in cams or overall engine geometry can affect that number as well. Most of the changes in airflow will be picked up off the MAF sensor, however, fundamental changes to geometry that affect engine efficiency at that point will create a different "scaler". If the car is Speed Density hacked, then this value is very important because the MAF isn't available to pick up the differences in air flow.

The next problem people have is they don't realize that with large injectors, that reference point is very close to the non linear portion of the injector's flow characteristics. Injectors are NOT a linear relationship of flow vs pulsewidth over the entire range. This is why injectors in a car are always the smallest injector needed to get the job done. Keeping the pulse widths longer leads to more linear flow characteristics and less time spent in non linear flow areas. Non linear areas require extra programming in the ecu. The programming does exist in the Subaru ecu and Cobb just recently found it. The problem lies in that many will try to tune the injector scale at idle vs a known MAF scale and get an incorrect injector scale because they are actually compensating for the difference in the low pulse region that is programmed into the ecu vs what the injector is actually doing.

Fuel pressure sensitivity is another aspect of injector operation that will affect your scale as well. As fuel pressure is increased, some injectors will not gain the same flow rate as other injectors as the increase in pressure slows the movement of the internals and therefore the injector spends more time and partially open positions.

Judging by your response, I say you're only missing a little. You're correct, injector tuning isn't new, but it's more often misunderstood than anything... especially by "competent" tuners.
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Old 07-02-2013, 07:22 AM   #7423
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Originally Posted by manitou View Post
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...2353079&page=2
http://www.bmotorsports.com/shop/pro...roducts_id/829
I would just buy the mail packard plug to fit the female plug on your new pump.
I have that plug it came with the install kit the problem is the female plug does not fit through the housing and even if it did i will still need to wire that in anyway. I will trace the wires and see were they go and get out my meter and test them for voltage.
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Old 07-02-2013, 09:14 AM   #7424
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never mind guys just found a thread from a while back that shows everything i need thanks for all the help.
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Old 07-03-2013, 10:39 AM   #7425
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Dom, good information, thank you. That helps explain a lot.
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