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Old 02-27-2013, 10:16 AM   #51
sponaugle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelucas View Post
Inducer size says otherwise, at least on paper

GT3076R - 57.0mm. EFR7670 - 57.2mm. GTX30R - 58.0mm.

GT3582R - 61.4mm. GTX3582R - 62.5mm.

Granted there's more than meets the eye than inducer size, but it sure has been a decent and consistent standard for a long time. Enlighten me sir!
Quote:
Originally Posted by reid-o View Post
I think he was referring to flow rate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by lancelucas View Post
Fair.

Correct. It is really not a good comparison to look at impeller dimensions across different turbos, for the same reason you might not use just displacement to compare engines. In reality, they ideal turbo would have the flow you want with the smallest impeller size.

If you are going to compare, you would want to compare flow rate based on the compressor maps. Jeff Perrin did a great job of this in his EFR thread. The 7670 has the high end flow that is similar to the old 35r, around 64-65lbs/min. Of course one can also just look at he results. I certainly was not able to get 475whp on pump fuel with my .30r. That is imperical so it doesn't make a global representation, but it is a data point. Then again the 30r .63 spools faster. It is not all cake and ice cream.
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:23 AM   #52
sponaugle
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NSFW View Post
I would love to hear what you learn from the pressure sensors. I've been drooling over those for years. There was a brief period where $1000/plug seemed tolerable... And then I started looking into the data acquisition....

If your car stumbles at all during cruise, I'd love to know what the pressure sensors show when that happens. It's a problem (or family of problems with similar symptoms) that plagues a lot of Subarus.

But mostly I wonder what's going on at high power. With different AFRs and timing and boost. Fascinating stuff.

Same here. The data rated are pretty high, and you need accurate linking to the original crank angle to make it useful.

It does seem that the data from some of the cruise issues would be very helpful. There are some stumbles that are hard to correlate to the usual metrics like afr, egt, ait, etc. In combination with a set of accurate intake and exhaust pressure sensors, there is a lot to learn. As soon as I finish the e85 tune, I'll install the system and start collecting data. I do need to fab up a way to get the coil pack attached with the fiber optic cable coming thru, as it is pretty tight in the Subaru engine bay relative to the spark plug access.

Jeff
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:24 AM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bariga View Post
nice,
We also had AVCS working all the way to redline to keep the turbo happy.
I notice it spools very late and boost falls off might want to check out my thread
When you have a chance, post up your intake and exhaust AVCS maps. I'd like to compare them.

Jeff
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Old 02-27-2013, 10:32 AM   #54
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post

When you have a chance, post up your intake and exhaust AVCS maps. I'd like to compare them.

Jeff
It's just intake avcs running on a vipec.
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Old 02-27-2013, 12:09 PM   #55
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
It's just intake avcs running on a vipec.
Ah cool.. I have been meaning to switch my EZ30R Bugeye over to Vipec from the Hydra..

Jeff
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Old 02-27-2013, 02:21 PM   #56
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^ best idea ever
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Old 02-27-2013, 04:11 PM   #57
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
EFR7670, Perrin/Cobb, 475whp, Pump Fuel, Sponaugle Style Details.

At the same time the latest SD software from Cobb was getting good traction and the two together seemed like a good starting point. Tim at Surgeline/Cobb has been the master calibrator at Cobb and has refined the Speed Density tuning to a true science. If you are looking for a place to get science not fiction, take it to Cobb.
Thanks for the props Jeff but i want to make sure everyone understands the team effort that goes into the software development at COBB. We happen to be the guys in the car entering the values for your tune but my efforts and expertise pale in comparison to the sum of talent and effort behind the COBB Subaru Expert Team. To name a few: Bill Gregg wrote the SD code, confirmed its function, and continually refine it with feedback from Lance Lucas here at COBB Surgeline. In fact, Lance is the guy who first introduced me to the COBB SD tuning product and he is THE go-to guy when i can't figure out the more subtle and critical aspects of tuning.. like how to get a big injector large cam stock ECU car to idle perfectly. SO, i humbly must take a step behind the COBB subaru experts and allow them to take a well deserved bow. Without these guys doing the HARD development and testing work, the cool big power tunes like yours and race car tunes (LIC 04 sti holds the modified track record at infineon) would be impossible.

Tim Bailey
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Old 02-28-2013, 02:06 AM   #58
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Thanks Tim! One of the things that will always keep me coming into work in the morning at COBB is the chance to work with a skilled team who can appreciate and then build upon my particular contribution to the projects. Within Surgeline, we've got a great tree of resources that make finished projects sum to much greater than their individual parts. Brandon and Geoff do an incredible job of organizing the jobs and designing a project based on the customer's goals, Chris and Stefan do above and beyond mechanical work with pristine quality, and Tim and myself bring it together with our own specialities that compliment each other really well. I love the details of calibration and Tim has an amazing knack for on-power tuning. Combine all of that and we end up with some really really neat finished products.

Then throw Spoon in the mix with his vast knowledge, amenable funding and an unbridled eagerness to explore and bam, one heck of a car comes out of blender
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Old 03-03-2013, 10:46 PM   #59
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E85 yet??
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Old 03-15-2013, 12:58 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by tazswing View Post
E85 yet??
I put in E85 a few days ago and changed the injector scaling about 35% and and doing some road testing. It runs pretty good, so I'll try to get back on the dyno next week sometime.

I did do a quick 50-100 test, and posted this data in the 50-100 thread.



Also, here is a look at boost for the faster run:



I really should turn on flat foot shifting.. that boost drop sucks. You can see the spool up in 4th gear. Based on the datalogs I get back to full boost in round .6 seconds, which is not bad. Perhaps the most noticeable difference between this turbo and my previous GT30R .63 is the spool when adding throttle above the boost threshold.

Once you are at the boost threshold, it feels very snappy. I like it better then my 30R, and it makes more power to boot. Of course it costs about twice as much.

Jeff

Last edited by sponaugle; 03-15-2013 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:00 PM   #61
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So how much you think you are making now on e85? how much timing at redline? nice
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Old 03-15-2013, 01:45 PM   #62
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Jeff, can you post boost and TPS overlayed on the so we can see boost recovery.

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Old 03-15-2013, 02:11 PM   #63
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Originally Posted by kellygnsd View Post
Jeff, can you post boost and TPS overlayed on the so we can see boost recovery.
The picture above has boost, but here is boost and TPS.



This data is not very good, as this datalog had 10 parameters.. next time I'll do less parameters which will get more samples/sec. I also have a 20HZ GPS that I can datalog to get more accurate speed info.
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Old 03-15-2013, 02:13 PM   #64
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
So how much you think you are making now on e85? how much timing at redline? nice
The timing curve is exactly the same as the pump fuel, so look at the graphs in the first few posts. Obviously I can add more timing with E85, and will do so on the dyno... I just changed the fuel injector size and put in E85 to get some miles on the car.

It is hard to determine if there is more power from just switching to E85 with no changes in boost and timing. It feels faster, but that is so subjective. The dyno will tell.
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Old 06-26-2013, 01:35 PM   #65
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sponaugle, did you ever finish the fuel tool that you posted a screenshot of? That would be awesome if you could post it!
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Old 07-06-2013, 02:42 AM   #66
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^^ +1, id love to play with that tool
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Old 07-15-2013, 12:15 AM   #67
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Been looking at this turbo and seems very nice Where would be the cheapest price to source one from?
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Old 07-20-2013, 02:44 PM   #68
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Been looking at this turbo and seems very nice Where would be the cheapest price to source one from?
Everybody seems to have them at the same price. Good luck finding them though. I'm currently on the waiting list from full-race and the best guess for availability is late August, and that is just a guess.

-Luke
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Old 06-11-2014, 02:10 PM   #69
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sponaugle View Post
The timing curve is exactly the same as the pump fuel, so look at the graphs in the first few posts. Obviously I can add more timing with E85, and will do so on the dyno... I just changed the fuel injector size and put in E85 to get some miles on the car.

It is hard to determine if there is more power from just switching to E85 with no changes in boost and timing. It feels faster, but that is so subjective. The dyno will tell.

Hate to bump this thread, but did you ever dyno your car Jeff?
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Old 06-11-2014, 11:00 PM   #70
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I want to see too!
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Old 06-17-2014, 05:58 PM   #71
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Bump!

Found this this thread and got really exciting reading through it waiting to get to the part about E85 results and then nada.

I was surprised by two things:

1. The amount of timing this setup would take on 92

2. The lack of exahust AVCS retard in the spool-up area.

I hope Jeff will pop back in and share details. I am curious how much more timing this setup took on E85.
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Old 10-22-2015, 12:16 PM   #72
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While more than a year late, I thought it would be instructive to bump this thread to provide an update. I always enjoy reading updates from threads like this, as it is helpful to see what kinds of problems have cropped up over time.

It is now October 2015, so it has been 2 years since I did the first post. As was mentioned in the later part of the thread, shortly after this first tune I switched to E85 and have been running that ever since. I did a few tanks of 92 along the way, but never in a significant quantity or with significant load. Since I run E85 in 4 of my other cars, I always keep some around the house.

I have been somewhat distracted from playing with the car in part because I have shifted a lot of focus to other car projects. I have been spending time building up my R35 GT-R (http://www.gtrlife.com/forums/topic/...-lots-of-data/), building an 818 kit car (http://thefactoryfiveforum.com/showt...-H6-EZ30R-818S), and most recently importing and modifying a 1990 R32 GT-R. As you guys know, I’m a bit on crazy side.

Let’s start with the good news:

The car is still running with almost the exact same setup as I started. The engine, which I built in my garage, is holding up well with no signs of failure. The car has been for the most part reliable (more on that in the negatives), and the EFR turbo has performed well. Once I switched to E85 I ran the car at 26 psi, and I have been running that level the entire time. I would describe the typical load on the car as harsh, primarily in that when I drive the car I drive it hard. I have a few other cars that I rotate thru to daily drive so when I am in this one, I’m on the boost a lot. On the physical front, I had just a few small problems with the boost tubes. When I first started running 26psi I had a few tubes come off, but once getting them all tight it has been reliable. I am running speed density which has been straightforward and pretty easy to keep consistent. I have only had one instance of significant knock, which I’ll describe below. Since I have the AP in the car all the time, I have tended to always log while driving, including ‘Feedback Knock’ and a few other key variables. The engine still sounds great, runs smooth, and had no other obvious problems.

The bad news:

I had a couple of different problems in the last 2.5 years. About a year in I started noticing a bit of blue smoke on startup, especially after a hard drive with a quick shutdown. After a bit of investigating I found a reasonable amount of oil in the turbo intake pipe. From the beginning I have been running a Crawford Air/Oil Separator (Version 1), and that first year things seemed to work pretty well. As I dug into the problem more I found a significant amount of oil blow-by in the primary and secondary intercooler tubes, intercooler, and turbo output. When I removed the Crawford catch can it was clear that it was filled with what looked like slimy mustard. This is a known problem where the catch can is cold enough to cause the oil/water mix to condensate. Once it filled up with the mix, it stopped working.

The short term fix was to remove *everything* and clean. I spent a lot of time+hot water+brake cleaner getting the intercooler and associated tubes cleaned up, as well as the intake manifold, turbo inlet, and all of the catch can lines. I also went back into some of the old logs and discovered that under boost I was occasionally getting -1.4 feedback knock. I noticed a few of these a few months earlier, but didn’t link them up until this point.

Once everything was cleaned up and reinstalled, the car ran better, with no knock, and no blue smoke. About a year later (so 6 months ago), the same thing happened again. I started to notice a few spurious -1.4s and eventually some bigger -2.8s, and just a hint of blue smoke on startup. Sure enough after a tear down of the boost tubes everything was just as the first time.. The solution to this is to have the catch can use the throttle body coolant loop to keep the can warm enough to avoid condensation. Since I needed to get a new unit I switched to the Perrin Air Oil Separator. It is a better form factor that is much more serviceable, and a bit easier to install. It has a coolant loop built into it. Once all that was hooked back up and another deep clean cycle, all was well. I just removed the boost tubes last week for a check and they were as clean as when I put the new AOS in. I liked the Perrin AOS so much I installed it in three of my other cars.

The other significant problem I had was the failure of the in-tank fuel pump about 2 months ago. In my setup the in-tank pump feeds into a Radium surge tank, and that tank has a Walbro 420 fuel pump that feeds the car. The in-tank pump just moves fuel from the main tank to the surge tank with no load (or pressure). I actually got a warning before it failed, as it threw a code about the fuel pump circuit, but of course I ignored that since it went away after a reset. A week later it died for good. It was a DW65c pump, and when I pulled it out it looked pretty corroded. I think that is supposed to be an E85 compatible pump, but I’d have to double check and make sure mine was. I replaced it with a Walbro 255 that I had on the shelf, and everything is working great. It will fail again, so on my todo list is to get a real E85 compatible tank pump.

All in all, I’ve been pretty happy with the setup. The engine continues to run great, making good power while being fun to drive. During the last intercooler service I decided to add some more instrumentation. I added a set of pre and post intercooler pressure sensors, as well as a set of pre and post intercooler temperature probes. I already have oil temp, oil pressure, AFR, and EGT sensors installed.

After getting my sensor setup working, I noticed that the boost as shown by my boost gauge as well as the new sensors seemed a bit higher then what I was calling for. After some more digging I discovered that my primary map sensor (in the manifold) has degraded a bit over time. It reads a bit lower than the correct reading, and it appears to be a pretty linear offset. It was easy to program around, but I’ll swap it out for a new sensor in the next few weeks. It is an AEM 5 bar sensor, and I have used many of these in the past without problems. It is possible it’s life was cut short by the excessive amount of blow by oil contamination. None the less something to consider as a serviceable item in high power cars.

No post is really complete without at least some data…

I thought it would be interesting to take a look at both the turbocharger as well as the intercooler efficiency. Let’s start looking at a wastegate pull focusing on pressure:



This graph has output from three pressure sensors: one in the manifold, one in the boost tube post intercooler, and one in the boost tube pre intercooler. Blue is the manifold pressure, green the post, and red the pre. In this graph you can see two obvious things. First the green and blue don’t match up. I think this is partly a result of further degradation of the manifold sensor, and in part due to pressure drop from the boost tub into an active flowing manifold. Keep in mind the blue line is what the ECU sees, and what the ECU boost control thinks is happening. In this first case boost pressure in the manifold is about 18psi. Pressure post intercooler is about 20psi, and pressure pre intercooler is about 22.7psi. That is a pretty significant difference in pressure, owing mostly to the change in temperature across the intercooler. It is important to consider here that while most people would say they are running ‘18psi’, in reality the turbocharger is pushing at almost 23psi. This is good to note when reading those compressor maps.

Seeing this difference in pressure makes one wonder about temperature, and here is the answer:



This is that same run, but with pre and post intercooler temperatures added. Ambient air temp was about 68 degrees or so in this particular case. You can see the large ramp in temperature as the pull happens, with peak temperature of 267 degrees F right at redline. That is pretty warm air, but notice the temperature of the air coming out of the intercooler. 76 degrees F.. and it stays pretty constant through the entire pull. The intercooler has both sufficient thermal mass and efficiency to hardly notice the significantly hotter intake temps. The engine of course sees that nice cool 77 degree air, albeit at lower pressure. That is a good thing. *This* is why you want a good intercooler.

Of course this is at wastegate boost. What about at 26psi?



First, ignore the crappy shape of the boost curve. That is an artifact of me lowering the wastegate duty cycle a bit too much in the midrange. As in the previous graphs you can see the differential pressure between the blue and green, as well as the green and red. While the manifold is seeing 26psi, the turbocharger is actually outputting at 30.4psi, a 4.4 psi difference. Based on this alone one would suspect that the air is pretty warm at that point. One other interesting thing to note is the difference in fall off at the end of the pull. The green line has a sharp drop to vacuum as the throttle body closes, but the pre and post intercooler have a much slower dropoff as the air reverts and goes out the blow off valve which is built into the compressor cover. That is a difference of almost a second.



Here is the real data. At 26psi, air temps out of the turbocharger peaked at 300.74F, but as with the previous pull post intercooler temps were still 77 degrees. This again demonstrates the ability of the intercooler to do its job. During this testing I started out using a set of GM Fast response AIT sensors both pre and post, but the GM sensor could not survive in the Pre intercooler position for more than a week. The temperatures were just too high. I swapped out that pre sensor for a K thermocouple which had no problem handling the temperatures. During some testing when I ran at >28psi I measured pre intercooler air temps as high as 350 degrees F. That is some hot air! I would guess that intake air into the turbocharger was around 100 degrees or so, so the turbo is adding 250 degrees F, and the intercooler is removing 275 degrees F. I like intercoolers.

There are more things that can be analyzed with this setup, so I’ll continue to dig into it more. I do have some data about the comparison of response time between the thermocouple and the GM sensor, and if I can find it I’ll post it up. Short answer is thermocouple is much better.

Oh, and yes, I will finally put this back on the dyno and see how much more power it makes. My guess: Not that much more peak power, as this little turbo is working way too hard at this boost level. Time for a bigger EFR.

Last edited by sponaugle; 10-22-2015 at 05:16 PM.
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Old 10-22-2015, 12:56 PM   #73
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I can't tell you how much I enjoy reading all of your threads like this one.

THank you for the follow up
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Old 10-22-2015, 12:59 PM   #74
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I love your posts. how many miles do you have on the engine? and which car is more fun to drive the GTR or the suby in your opinion
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Old 10-22-2015, 01:02 PM   #75
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Awesome, I love your posts.

Quick question for you:

I run a TMIC with a 6758, but my post TMIC temps easily get into the 140s if I go through the gears. (tested with multiple different TMICs) I use a GM fast acting IAT sensor post TMIC.

Here is the cool tuning stuff:

I have alky injection, but don't use any failsafes. It is tuned for pump, but I run minimal alky in the summer for extra protection. I have the car tuned such that AFRs and timing is affected by IAT. (not sure if anyone has done it before, but in my 2013 STI there is a table that affects AFR based off IAT timing adjustment) To sum up, if my IAT sensor shows 70F, my called for AFR is about 11.2. If my IAT shows 140F, 10.6.

Then I decided to experiment with different alky nozzle placements. If I placed it fairly close to the GM IAT, it would artificially lower IAT, and thereby run more timing and leaner AFR. So based off what the ECU sees as IAT, my car kinda compensates for itself based in injected alky.

At any rate, if my alky jet is close to my Fast acting GM IAT sensor it only lasts a few weeks (good thing it is only $15).

So my question is, Can I use a thermocouple close to an alky jet? Will it last? Can it be used in place of an IAT, and just scale the ECU accordingly?
Also, any links to where I can buy such thermocouple?


Thanks
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