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Old 07-01-2013, 08:16 AM   #101
bluesubie
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Also note the difference in additive levels compared to the Amsoil Euro uoa in the bitog link. Would you be willing to testify under oath that the oil was in fact, Amsoil Euro 5W-30?

You can always send in an unused sample to see if it has been reformulated. I believe the low ZDDP in the other link is closer to how a low SAPS oil should look though.

-Dennis
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Last edited by bluesubie; 07-01-2013 at 10:13 AM.
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Old 07-01-2013, 12:02 PM   #102
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Originally Posted by 1wrxtra View Post
This most recent sample (the Amsoil 5w30 I posted above in post #92) I took correctly so those results should be correct unless Blackstone fudged something up. The previous test (the second UOA in post #69) was sampled from the pan. It was a new pan though, had never been used before that so it wasn't contaminated from old oil.

Was that what you were looking for or did I misunderstand your question?
You didn't misunderstand my question, I asked it poorly.

I was actually referring to the previous UOA which you did take from the pan, I thought maybe some RT6 or something got mixed in, thus thickening the sample. If the pan was brand new, I wouldn't expect any contamination issues. This latest one is so thin it makes me wonder if it's lab error, maybe ask Blackstone to confirm the KV100 number. It could also be that they mixed up your sample with someone else's. Gathermethewool's UOA showed 11% shear, which while not great, is much more believable.

The discussion over at BITOG is interesting. Like I said before, this is the oil Amsoil would recommend for a VW 2.0t (GTI/TT/A4), and those things are murder on oil, especially the gen 1 engines (pre-TFSI) they make a WRX look positively kind to oil. So the idea that this low-SAPS oil would obviously not be up to the task of a WRX seems strange to me.

I found this discussion at BITOG (link) which seems to indicate that the Euro manufacturers screwed up yet again when translating requirements to the North American market. Apparently the low-SAPS oils aren't up to long drain intervals in gasoline cars due to ethanol and sulfur content in North American fuel, though they do fine in diesels.
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Old 07-01-2013, 12:10 PM   #103
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
Also note the difference in additive levels compared to the Amsoil Euro uoa in the bitog link. Would you be willing to testify under oath that the oil was in fact, Amsoil Euro 5W-30?

You can always send in an unused sample to see if it has been reformulated. I believe the low ZDDP in the other link is closer to how a low SAPS oil should look though.

-Dennis
I've got the receipts to prove it, although Amsoil could have pulled a bait and switch on me

I do have some 5w30 left over that wasn't used, I'll send in a sample of that when they send me more bottles. I'm all out right now

This was the second batch of Amsoil 5w30 Euro that's been through the car, they both burned about a quart so I'm surprised to see the Visc 100 difference between the two. Not sure if it's got something to do with my poor sampling method on the older report skewing those results, (post 69) or if I got a "bad batch" the second time around.
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Old 07-01-2013, 12:12 PM   #104
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You didn't misunderstand my question, I asked it poorly.

I was actually referring to the previous UOA which you did take from the pan, I thought maybe some RT6 or something got mixed in, thus thickening the sample. If the pan was brand new, I wouldn't expect any contamination issues. This latest one is so thin it makes me wonder if it's lab error, maybe ask Blackstone to confirm the KV100 number. It could also be that they mixed up your sample with someone else's. Gathermethewool's UOA showed 11% shear, which while not great, is much more believable.

The discussion over at BITOG is interesting. Like I said before, this is the oil Amsoil would recommend for a VW 2.0t (GTI/TT/A4), and those things are murder on oil, especially the gen 1 engines (pre-TFSI) they make a WRX look positively kind to oil. So the idea that this low-SAPS oil would obviously not be up to the task of a WRX seems strange to me.

I found this discussion at BITOG (link) which seems to indicate that the Euro manufacturers screwed up yet again when translating requirements to the North American market. Apparently the low-SAPS oils aren't up to long drain intervals in gasoline cars due to ethanol and sulfur content in North American fuel, though they do fine in diesels.
I will follow up with Blackstone and ask them to confirm.
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Old 07-01-2013, 12:37 PM   #105
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I called BS - they said they will rerun the test this afternoon and should be able to get back to me tonight.
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Old 07-01-2013, 01:09 PM   #106
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gps - Not sure about the A4, but the 2.0T TT/TTS definitely specs VW 502 and not low SAPS oils. Motul actually advises against the use of low SAPS oils in certain applications and in certain European countries (depending on the fuel quality I presume).

http://www.motul.com/system/product_...pdf?1302202191

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 07-01-2013 at 02:24 PM.
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Old 07-01-2013, 03:14 PM   #107
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gps - Not sure about the A4, but the 2.0T TT/TTS definitely specs VW 502 and not low SAPS oils. Motul actually advises against the use of low SAPS oils in certain applications and in certain European countries (depending on the fuel quality I presume).

http://www.motul.com/system/product_...pdf?1302202191

-Dennis
The manual says 502. Unless they've changed it, VW's specification cross reference indicates that 504 is acceptable in any 502 application. That's from memory, there was some confusion when the CR Tdi came out in 2009 and 504/507 oils started showing up.

502 is an obsolete spec in any market but North America, completely replaced by 504 in the rest of the world.
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Old 07-02-2013, 06:25 PM   #108
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I called BS - they said they will rerun the test this afternoon and should be able to get back to me tonight.
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Old 07-02-2013, 08:48 PM   #109
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Haha sorry, here's the updated report:





KV @ 100 = 9.71


slightly higher than before, but still showing a lot of shearing.
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Old 07-09-2013, 08:41 AM   #110
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GP/Dennis,

Any thoughts on the updated #'s?
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Old 07-09-2013, 10:20 AM   #111
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GP/Dennis,

Any thoughts on the updated #'s?
Viscosity is still low, but slightly better but I'm still surprised the additive levels are as high as they are.

I would probably be trying to find out if Amsoil reformulated this oil by looking for VOA's or contacting Amsoil's technical department. Not that the uoa is really bad, but more so just to confirm BS's additive levels.

-Dennis
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Old 07-09-2013, 04:36 PM   #112
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Sorry, I was away for an extended holiday weekend. I'll also apologize for the previous confusion and incomplete comments on my part, it'll teach me to post too fast without looking closely at the results.

I'm still perplexed. Dennis is right, the additives look off and so does the viscosity. Your 13,743 mi UOA of Amsoil Euro looks right, both for viscosity and additive levels. This 17,726 mi UOA looks like a more typical GF-5 synthetic than a low-SAPS European HD 5w30. Look at the Moly, Boron, Calcium, Zinc and Phosphorous levels, they're all substantially different. Combine that with the unlikely eventuality that Amsoil's quality base stocks sheared by 25% and I still think something smells.

I'm going to guess that either Amsoil mis-labeled your oil, and you got something like XL or Signature Series xw-30 in a Euro-Series bottle, or Blackstone mixed your sample up with someone else's. Most likely the latter. I'll echo Dennis' advice, call Amsoil's tech department and ask them about the additive levels (and viscosity). Maybe ping Blackstone too, let them know that the two samples are supposed to be the same oil.
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Old 07-10-2013, 08:18 AM   #113
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Thanks for your replies. I already spoke to Blackstone and explained the situation. They basically said not to worry about it as the results were good.

I also already emailed AMSOIL. I'll give them a call sometime this week when I get a chance.
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Old 07-10-2013, 10:09 AM   #114
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You're being extremely diligent in this. Kudos for continuing to pester Blackstone and Amsoil.

Results were good? Big deal if those results were for another car, you paid for results from your car.

Since you're getting your oil from Amsoil any way, maybe consider firing Blackstone and getting uoa's from Amsoil. They're ~$10 cheaper than Blackstone when TBN is included.
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Old 07-10-2013, 12:17 PM   #115
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You're being extremely diligent in this. Kudos for continuing to pester Blackstone and Amsoil.

Results were good? Big deal if those results were for another car, you paid for results from your car.

Since you're getting your oil from Amsoil any way, maybe consider firing Blackstone and getting uoa's from Amsoil. They're ~$10 cheaper than Blackstone when TBN is included.
Thank you, when it comes to the health of my DD I will try to do whatever I can to ensure it's healthy and in top shape.

I received a response from AMSOIL:

Quote:
Thank you for providing the link to the Blackstone oil report which makes it much easier to fully answer your questions.

First, the viscosity. The range for an oil viscosity to be called 30 weight is from 9.3 to 12.4 cSt @ 100 degrees C. Your oil measured 9.71 cSt, so is still within the correct viscosity range. The drop in viscosity that has occurred could be from either fuel dilution or mechanical shear, but is not enough to worry about.

Next, the formulation. AMSOIL has not changed the formulation of this oil, but your results do show some surprising differences. For example, AMSOIL 5W-30 European Car Formula oil does not contain Molybdenum. Your first sample showed 98 ppm and could easily be the result of residual additives from the previous oil you were using. The next sample showed 15 ppm, which would be expected as the last traces of your original oil left the engine. Your third sample, however, shows 80 ppm. Since the oil you are using does not contain it, I canít tell you where it came from. Usually we see this when an engine is topped off with a different oil or when an aftermarket oil additive is used. The same situation exists with your Boron and Calcium levels, which were dropping and then rise on the third sample.

There will always be some variation is additive levels, both in the oil formulation and even in different lab tests, but your oil shows higher levels of Calcium, Phosphorus, Zinc and Magnesium than AMSOIL 5W-30 European Car Formula oil typically contains.

Finally, even with the additive level discrepancies, your wear metal levels are minimal. Whatever is causing the difference in additive levels is not affecting the protection of the engine.

Another note, according to the AMSOIL website, the European Car Formula is not the primary recommendation for this vehicle. It isnít wrong, but since the Subaru-determined drain interval is recommended because of the turbocharger oil supply screen, there are other products that can meet your needs at less expense. Just a thought.
I responded with:

Quote:
Thank you for your response. Regarding the formulation of the oil - this is the second batch of 5w30 European that I've run, and these were run back to back (the 13,700 change, and this change at 17,700 both used 5w30 Euro).

This is the reason I sent you my previous inquiry. No other oils have been used since 13,700 miles, which is why I was surprised by the difference in results. My first sample used a synthetic flavor of Castrol, but the second and third are both AMSOIL 5w30 Euro. Additionally, neither my second nor third sample were topped off with anything at any point. Ultimately I found it quite strange that my second and third samples came back looking like 2 different types of oil! I believe that I may actually still have some unused oil left over in the bottles from both of these changes if you'd like me to send them in.

Thank you for your last note, and I am aware that this particular oil is not "recommended" for my vehicle. I've actually switched to your 5w40 full saps European blend to see if that will make a difference in the shearing I saw in the last sample. I'm not overly concerned with the expense - I'd prefer to do what I can to ensure a healthy and long-living engine.

Thank you again for your response.
I am a little hesitant to send AMSOIL a sample of their own oil for testing, they'd probably play favorites and skew the results in my favor

I will consider sending my next sample to both AMSOIL and Blackstone to see how the results come back. I am very curious to see if they would show the same results.
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Old 07-10-2013, 02:06 PM   #116
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It looks to me like Amsoil is confirming Dennis' and my suspicions that Blackstone swapped your sample. I would treat the 13,700 mi UOA as what to typically expect from Amsoil Euro 5w30 in your application, and treat the 17,700 mi sample as lab error.

Too bad you won't be running the Euro 5w30 any more, it would have been nice to see some trending with it. Maybe I'll switch to it from Redline just for kicks (probably not). We'll see how the full-SAPS 5w40 looks, I'll bet it performs well, but no better than cheaper, easier to get RT6.
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Old 07-10-2013, 03:41 PM   #117
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It looks to me like Amsoil is confirming Dennis' and my suspicions that Blackstone swapped your sample. I would treat the 13,700 mi UOA as what to typically expect from Amsoil Euro 5w30 in your application, and treat the 17,700 mi sample as lab error.

Too bad you won't be running the Euro 5w30 any more, it would have been nice to see some trending with it. Maybe I'll switch to it from Redline just for kicks (probably not). We'll see how the full-SAPS 5w40 looks, I'll bet it performs well, but no better than cheaper, easier to get RT6.
I get a ~20% off discount from AMSOIL as my buddy is a distributor. Also, the Full SAPS stuff is $38.80 for 5L before the discount. It's not too expensive.

5L AMSOIL = $38.80
1 Gal T6 = $21.00

It ends up being very close when you add my discount and equal out the amount of oil. We'll have to wait and see. I've got another 2,200-ish miles to go until I hit 5k on this oil.
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Old 07-10-2013, 04:17 PM   #118
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There are some very good WRX uoa's on Amsoil HDD 3000 over at bitog. FWIW, here's another opinion from someone very knowledgable about Amsoil. He pretty much agrees with me about not running the girly man oils.
Quote:
I think somebody mixed up the samples. That looks exactly like the 5w-30, XL Series oil in terms of specific additive chemistry. I'd expect the XL to shear down in a turbo application.

Why would you use the very low SAPS oil in a Subie turbo, when Amsoil has many better products available??? The DEO 5w-40 is now an API licensed, CJ-4/SN oil. That's what folks should be using in these turbos. Yes, I know that 5w-40 is no longer recommended. But that's just an attempt to maximize fuel efficiency....

-Dennis
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Old 07-16-2013, 08:36 PM   #119
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Since we're talking low-SAPS oils in gasoline cars here I thought I'd post a link to Artem's UOAs with Amsoil Euro 5w30. It's not a turbo Subaru, but it's a modded Civic Si, driven hard. It held up well, including the TBN, wear metals were also excellent.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...ue#Post2405247

All in all, I'd say the jury is still out on low-SAPS oils in gassers in the US. Gathermethewool is modded and shows a lot of fuel, 1wrxtra's latest doesn't look like Amsoil Euro, and his previous UOA looks pretty good. Now if only we could find some M1 ESP and Pennzoil Ultra Euro UOAs in gassers...

Oh, and Dennis- take a look at the Lubrizol chart of 504/507, it pegs the meter for wear, sludge, piston deposits, and oxidation. The performance specs of 504/507 (Low-SAPS) certainly don't scream "girly-man oil" to me... There's always risk in change of course, but in a few years with the low-speed detonation requirements of GF-6, lots more oils might be "low-SAPS".

http://origin-qps.onstreammedia.com/.../pc/index.html
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Old 07-16-2013, 11:28 PM   #120
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Found my old gear oil UOA.
Anyone remember seeing this like a year or so ago?


75w90 is the norm, and as you can see that's NOT what was in the gearbox. It was probably ran closer to 5,000 or 6,000 before I drained it.

Whatever the hell this oil was, it was so thin that by the time I pulled the dipstick out, it would show just a bead of oil on the end. After the UOA I changed it to some 80w90 but it was too late.

Again, this was a over year ago, and the transmission has since been rebuilt, as the syncros were toasted. It wasn't immediate that this oil did its damage, but within 9-10 months all the gears were grinding lol.

Just thought some of you wouldn't mind seeing a gear oil UOA for once.
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Old 07-17-2013, 08:10 AM   #121
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Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post
Since we're talking low-SAPS oils in gasoline cars here I thought I'd post a link to Artem's UOAs with Amsoil Euro 5w30. It's not a turbo Subaru, but it's a modded Civic Si, driven hard. It held up well, including the TBN, wear metals were also excellent.

http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...ue#Post2405247

All in all, I'd say the jury is still out on low-SAPS oils in gassers in the US. Gathermethewool is modded and shows a lot of fuel, 1wrxtra's latest doesn't look like Amsoil Euro, and his previous UOA looks pretty good. Now if only we could find some M1 ESP and Pennzoil Ultra Euro UOAs in gassers...

Oh, and Dennis- take a look at the Lubrizol chart of 504/507, it pegs the meter for wear, sludge, piston deposits, and oxidation. The performance specs of 504/507 (Low-SAPS) certainly don't scream "girly-man oil" to me... There's always risk in change of course, but in a few years with the low-speed detonation requirements of GF-6, lots more oils might be "low-SAPS".

http://origin-qps.onstreammedia.com/.../pc/index.html
Can't see the Lubrizol performance chart on my phone, but I'll check it out later. Motul Specific 504/507 shows oci's of 15k km's for VW's that spec 502. I think you mentioned this. Pretty impressive.

http://www.motul.com/system/product_...pdf?1303836087

Why don't you hire Terry Dyson to test a few low SAPS oils like he did on the original GC? It's probably only a few grand.

And now for a manly uoa, Red Line 5W-40 with a quart of Red Line 40WT race oil.
http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/forums...Number=1891050
Where's Uncle Scotty? dOOOOOOd! I've been doing this since most of these snotty nosed kids were in diapers.

Yes, I know that loading up with tons of AW additives isn't always an ideal solution (especially due to deposits). I think it's probably a good idea to keep a low SAPS oci in a turbo Subaru at 5k miles though or under unless you plan to do some trending with TBN and even TAN. I still like mid SAPS Motul X-clean for the low phos and high-ish zinc.

Edit: I checked VW 504 on the Lubrizol comparison tool and it's impressive. MB229.5 is as well.

-Dennis

Last edited by bluesubie; 07-17-2013 at 08:51 AM.
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Old 07-17-2013, 08:12 AM   #122
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Found my old gear oil UOA.
Anyone remember seeing this like a year or so ago?

75w90 is the norm, and as you can see that's NOT what was in the gearbox. It was probably ran closer to 5,000 or 6,000 before I drained it.

Whatever the hell this oil was, it was so thin that by the time I pulled the dipstick out, it would show just a bead of oil on the end. After the UOA I changed it to some 80w90 but it was too late.

Again, this was a over year ago, and the transmission has since been rebuilt, as the syncros were toasted. It wasn't immediate that this oil did its damage, but within 9-10 months all the gears were grinding lol.

Just thought some of you wouldn't mind seeing a gear oil UOA for once.
So I called it, eh? Did you get the used car dealer to compensate you?

-Dennis
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Old 07-17-2013, 09:54 AM   #123
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Originally Posted by bluesubie View Post
Can't see the Lubrizol performance chart on my phone, but I'll check it out later. Motul Specific 504/507 shows oci's of 15k km's for VW's that spec 502. I think you mentioned this. Pretty impressive.

http://www.motul.com/system/product_...pdf?1303836087

Why don't you hire Terry Dyson to test a few low SAPS oils like he did on the original GC? It's probably only a few grand.
Yep, take a look at all of the Euro-brand 504/507 websites/PDSs and you'll see the same thing. In Europe, cars which originally came with a 502 requirement (no OLM) keep their 15k KM OCI when switched to 504 oil. It's VW's factory recommendation. Actually, newer cars which came from the factory with an OLM and factory requirement for 504 (gasser) have variable OCIs of 15-30k KM with this oil, which is why the poor TBN retention in the US surprises me so much. Sure, the Sulfur levels are higher and we have Ethanol, but does that really cut the OCI by more than half? Apparently so.

Liqui-Moly 4200's (504/507) product page recommends use in all VW/Audi engines except some diesels, and reads:
Quote:
As such, oil change intervals of up to 30,000/50,000 km (or every 2 years for low mileage drivers) are possible as per the manufacturer's specifications.
This would certainly be a job for Terry, and if a coalition of 2011+ owners wanted to chip in, I'd be the ring leader, but judging by the (lack of) response to my oil poll, I'm guessing getting $$ out of anybody is not going to happen.

Quote:
Yes, I know that loading up with tons of AW additives isn't always an ideal solution (especially due to deposits). I think it's probably a good idea to keep a low SAPS oci in a turbo Subaru at 5k miles though or under unless you plan to do some trending with TBN and even TAN. I still like mid SAPS Motul X-clean for the low phos and high-ish zinc.

Edit: I checked VW 504 on the Lubrizol comparison tool and it's impressive. MB229.5 is as well.

-Dennis
I agree. Messing with additive levels can be counter-productive. "Wet" engine parts are very important of course, but I'm just as interested in intake track deposits. Do we have any borescope or teardown shots of WRX or N/A Subaru intake systems? Plenty of people do the Seafoam thing, but I'm not sure how necessary it really is. The cars don't have EGR AFAIK, so one source of manifold deposits doesn't exist. My old Mercury Mystique with the 2.5L modular v6 had terrible deposits from EGR+PCV gunk. It's hard to know how much was from the previous owner's unknown oil and how much came from the MaxLife syn I used in it. I had to replace the fancy dual-runner intake manifold's actuator at ~110k mi due to deposit fouling.

If I were to try a low-SAPS oil in my car I would certainly restrict the OCI to 5k mi until I had some trending. The Motul you mention is a VW 502/505 oil, superseded by 504/507 in the rest of the world, but the safer bet here in the land of Sulfur and Ethanol.
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Old 07-17-2013, 02:15 PM   #124
RavensFan7
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So I called it, eh? Did you get the used car dealer to compensate you?

-Dennis
Yup you called it.

...and no, I literally never went back after that. Started doing my own maintenance instead. Then a couple months back I had Andrewtech work their magic and its smooth sailing now.

Still can't believe how thin that gear oil was though.
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Old 07-17-2013, 06:58 PM   #125
gpshumway
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Still can't believe how thin that gear oil was though.
I would suspect it's not actually gear oil, though it's possible it sheared that much. The gear oil from my dad's Allroad came back at 9.92 cSt after 145k mi.

Many MTLs these days are just liquid delivery systems for anti-wear and friction modifier additives, and are really thin. OEM lubes from VW, Honda, GM and Ford are all like this. The commercial version of the GM fluid is Pennzoil Syncromesh. I'd bet the dealer used a MTL rather than gear oil because they didn't understand (or didn't care about) the unique requirements of a Subaru AWD gearbox.
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