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Old 07-25-2013, 06:37 AM   #601
Caocao
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
No, he loves numbers when he thinks they prove his point, and ignores numbers that disprove his point. It isn't a numbers problem at all...
Do you know what he loves more then numbers? Quoting himself, true story
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Old 07-25-2013, 07:30 AM   #602
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Caocao View Post
Do you know what he loves more then numbers? Quoting himself, true story
I already refuted him in the other thread (the one he wants us to read, quoting himself).

This thread was his attempt to climb on his self-created soap-box after he did not get a warm reception in the Warranty or Impreza MPG thread from other NASIOC members regarding his MPG complaint.

Please, if you don't have a CVT, or have a CVT and get good mileage, don't bother with him. He needs a gullible audience to sell what he is selling.
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Old 07-25-2013, 09:45 AM   #603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
Please, if you don't have a CVT, or have a CVT and get good mileage, don't bother with him.
Almost - the first part is true. If you do have a CVT I am always interested in the big picture.

Now take your own advice please.
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Old 07-25-2013, 10:26 AM   #604
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
Almost - the first part is true. If you do have a CVT I am always interested in the big picture.

Now take your own advice please.
Why, you are trying to take data from an owner with a 5 speed to prove what cannot be proven, that a CVT gets worse HWY mpg's than a 5 speed in the same driving conditions...

In any case, when you take over NASIOC, you can censor me. Until then, post your unproven theories, and I will show you their inherent flaws.
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Old 07-25-2013, 11:51 AM   #605
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
Why, you are trying to take data from an owner with a 5 speed to prove what cannot be proven, that a CVT gets worse HWY mpg's than a 5 speed in the same driving conditions...

In any case, when you take over NASIOC, you can censor me. Until then, post your unproven theories, and I will show you their inherent flaws.
You really have a problem understanding what is written, don't you (even when you write it)? You said: "Please, if you don't have a CVT ... don't bother with him. I simply agreed. Now, follow your own advice. I get tired of responding to your continued drifting from reality.

As far as HWY vs. Combined mpg, you said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
Fuelly data shows that the highest Combined MPG's belong exclusively to CVT's
Then I said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
1. BigFatHorse's fuelly data showed the 5 speed averaged 27.8, the CVT 27.3. You had to find some way to discount that so you said CVT drivers drive more in the city (LOL). Where's your proof? I say 5 speed drivers tend more to being aficionados. At any rate the fuelly data shows the 5 speed gets better fuel economy than the CVT. There are more CVT's than 5 speeds in the data so of course there are more at the ends - both ends.
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...5&postcount=35
Where was I talking exclusively about highway?

As far as your "CVT's get more of the higher end mpg's" that's true only when you get out beyond the top standard deviation, when according to BigFatHorse's fuelly data the CVT gets 30.1 and the 5 speed gets 30.0. At the bottom standard deviation though, the 5 speed gets 25.6, while the CVT gets only 24.4 mpg.

That's a much greater difference, and shows the CVT gets more poor mpg than the 5 speed (as well as a worse average).

You should go try to look for the truth rather than spew your bs.
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Old 07-25-2013, 11:59 AM   #606
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LOL, now you are refusing to talk about HWY mpg's exclusively?

So you do not believe that a CVT would get worse MPG's than a 5 speed on the same highway drive?

Good, I guess we agree.

Anyone who cares can look at the same Fuelly data we are, and will see that Impreza's with the highest combined mpg's are all CVT equipped Impreza's -- not a single 5 speed on the far right of the data set.

That the Fuelly data confirms both the EPA mandated testing, and the experience of many NASIOC owners who have a CVT and report much higher mileage than my 5 Speed obtains, is only lost on you.

Last edited by Zeeper; 07-25-2013 at 12:07 PM.
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Old 07-25-2013, 02:44 PM   #607
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25 pages of bickering.....
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Old 07-25-2013, 06:32 PM   #608
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Originally Posted by Zeeper View Post
LOL, now you are refusing to talk about HWY mpg's exclusively?

So you do not believe that a CVT would get worse MPG's than a 5 speed on the same highway drive?

Good, I guess we agree.

Anyone who cares can look at the same Fuelly data we are, and will see that Impreza's with the highest combined mpg's are all CVT equipped Impreza's -- not a single 5 speed on the far right of the data set.

That the Fuelly data confirms both the EPA mandated testing, and the experience of many NASIOC owners who have a CVT and report much higher mileage than my 5 Speed obtains, is only lost on you.
Wow. Are you confused or what? I would encourage everyone to look at BigFatHorse's actual fuelly data linked to above.
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Old 07-25-2013, 07:43 PM   #609
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I already pointed out how the chart is color coded, on June 20th in this very thread, even a kindergartener can figure out what color means CVT, and see the highest MPG's belong to that color

If this thread is cyclical, it's because you want it to be, I'm just jumping in when you make easily disprove able claims.

Last edited by Zeeper; 07-26-2013 at 08:34 PM.
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Old 07-25-2013, 08:13 PM   #610
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Someone I know liked my car(s) so much they went out and bought a premium cvt.
They do a lot more 70+mph turnpike cruising than I do, but we live in the same area and often roadtrip in convoys.
I shall start a mpg "war" with them once we have a few thousand miles each and let yall know what comes of it.
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Old 07-26-2013, 04:24 PM   #611
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 79letour View Post
Someone I know liked my car(s) so much they went out and bought a premium cvt.
They do a lot more 70+mph turnpike cruising than I do, but we live in the same area and often roadtrip in convoys.
I shall start a mpg "war" with them once we have a few thousand miles each and let yall know what comes of it.
This will be more helpful than the last couple pages.
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Old 07-27-2013, 07:45 PM   #612
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Zeeper and Caocao convinced me (actually Caocao - Zeeper probably still won't get it, but Caocao's an engineer so he will) to run some numbers. I took BigFatHorse's database from here:

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...5&postcount=35

and plotted the mpg's out. Zeeper's been talking about all the CVT's that get really good mpg way over on the right, so here's what he's talking about.

However, you can see that there are CVT's to the left as well (further actually) - that's because there are 140 drivers in the database with CVT's and only 38 with 5MT's. If you kind of step back (well, or sit back) and look at the big picture, you can see the 5MT's, despite that enthusiasts generally prefer manual transmissions, get better mpg with the Impreza. The average for this, the big dataset, is 27.7 mpg for the 5MT and 27.1 for the CVT's.

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Old 07-28-2013, 01:50 AM   #613
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I have an idea, get current data...
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Old 07-28-2013, 02:28 AM   #614
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Feel free. You have what I used. More data is always good. Get it all...

One interesting thing that came out is that the '12's averaged 27.8, while the '13's only averaged 27.2. Is that just break-in, PZEV, or what? There is not likely a silver bullet.
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Old 07-28-2013, 10:18 AM   #615
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Nice graph; however, it only proves one thing - Different drivers with different driving habits over different terrain have different gas (MPG) results. Now if one driver were to drive all of the 140 different cars over the same terrain, then this graph might have some validity/meaning.

My father-in-law will always be complaining about gas mileage because he "floors it" to get started and then brakes to slow it down to the speed limit and the "floors it" again to come back up to speed. Then he basically "slams on the breaks" at the last minute for stop signs and red lights.
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Old 07-28-2013, 11:55 AM   #616
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Nice graph; however, it only proves one thing - Different drivers with different driving habits over different terrain have different gas (MPG) results. Now if one driver were to drive all of the 140 different cars over the same terrain, then this graph might have some validity/meaning.
Lol - the fewer samples you have then yes, the more individual differences will vary the results. However, this data not only has some intrinsic value but it matches other data quite well. The 5MT appears to give about the EPA ratings. The CVT results pretty much mirror the first post in this thread, which was by professional driver(s?) trying to achieve the same roadway conditions.
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Old 07-28-2013, 01:59 PM   #617
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However, you cannot draw the conclusions you want to draw from that graph. If more miles are driven in the city by the drivers on Fuely, the Combined Average mpg will be lower to reflect that. They are not robots driving on a closed course, 50% highway, 50% city.

Since you don't know the mix of driving, it is pretty meaningless data for the conclusion you are reaching for. Try clicking on individual cars, and see if the owner reported the driving mix, and draw your conclusions from that.
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Old 07-28-2013, 02:38 PM   #618
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However, you cannot draw the conclusions you want to draw from that graph. If more miles are driven in the city by the drivers on Fuely, the Combined Average mpg will be lower to reflect that. They are not robots driving on a closed course, 50% highway, 50% city.

Since you don't know the mix of driving, it is pretty meaningless data for the conclusion you are reaching for. Try clicking on individual cars, and see if the owner reported the driving mix, and draw your conclusions from that.
You have the data - if you want to refute it you get the "mixes" of highway vs. city and plug them into the 4,000 data points. What's "highway" anyway? There are state highways running through the middle of major cities - usually referred to as "Central" or "Main Street" etc. No stop lights? Freeway speeds? Everybody's idea of "highway" is different. City drivers vs. enthusiasts, CVT (maybe) vs. 5MT (definitely).

Nope, this matches up quite well with the Consumer Reports data. Give it up.
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Old 07-28-2013, 03:58 PM   #619
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Bottom line is no matter how hard you try to prove it, not everybody with a cvt will get poor milage. Today 276 mile trip with wife and 2 kids with air on driving 70 half way and close to 80 the rest and I did over 34. That's with the back loaded with luggage and driving thru Kansas City also. I took rack off for this trip, but I'm pretty dang happy with those numbers from the CVT. and btw, my calculated milage is only .7 mpg less than that of my dash computer. Then factor in pump calibrations and that's + - 7 tenths. So its pretty accurate luckily. I'll leave it as it is. Havnt checked calibration if speedo since GPS and phone app are not accurate anyway.
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Old 07-28-2013, 04:45 PM   #620
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Like I keep saying, some of them are okay. Some are not.
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Old 07-28-2013, 05:29 PM   #621
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Like I keep saying, some of them are okay. Some are not.
i blame the drivers and their commute
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Old 07-28-2013, 08:25 PM   #622
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i blame the drivers and their commute
It is a well known scientific and mathematical fact, quoted in the bible (all major religions, even scientology), that the style of driving and the type of driving being done has no effect whatsoever, ever, never, on the resultant mpg's.

Didn't you read his take on Consumer Reports?

Stop being blasphemous.

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Old 07-28-2013, 10:10 PM   #623
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I understand the religion part, but not the math part- I'm not an engineer so I won't "get it". My uncle was an engineer for NASA until he died, I'd ask him if he were still here. He might get it. After all, he designed the optics for the space shuttle cameras, among other things. Kinda why he died of a brain tumor at 55, too much R&D. His engineering contributions to our world for the engineers interested-or maybe stupidity just runs in my family ;-)
He is listed just above this abstract , dated 1980 from Huntsville, Ala.

http://proceedings.spiedigitallibrar...d=1230781#site

One of the patents he and his team have-

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/4102580.pdf

Last edited by G2Spfld; 07-28-2013 at 11:35 PM.
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:38 AM   #624
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That's cool. But you don't have to be an engineer to "get it" - a real engineer (as opposed to a plug-and-chugger) will, and most other people can. I was referring to some people here not being able to look at facts and change their opinion.

"When my information changes, I change my mind. What do you do?"
(John Maynard Keynes)
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Old 07-29-2013, 12:45 AM   #625
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Originally Posted by stevehnm View Post
Lol - the fewer samples you have then yes, the more individual differences will vary the results. However, this data not only has some intrinsic value but it matches other data quite well. The 5MT appears to give about the EPA ratings. The CVT results pretty much mirror the first post in this thread, which was by professional driver(s?) trying to achieve the same roadway conditions.
OK, I get it. Different drivers, using different driving methods, over different terrains, and at different speeds will get different MPG averages. This means that your graph is totally meaningless regardless of any sampling as they do not address any or all anomalies in the data collected and used as the basis for the statistics. I think that you are trying really hard to "fit" the "statistics" to you own conclusions - inane and maybe dishonest IMHO - stats, damned stats, and lies "type of thing" rings true to me.
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