Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday April 18, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC General > General Community

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
View Poll Results: If Subaru upgraded the current block wiht forged internals
Would you pay the extra cost for the STI with forged internals? 50 60.24%
Would you buy the STI over the WRX with forged internals? 28 33.73%
You would still get the WRX. 15 18.07%
Forged internals would not correct any current issues. 8 9.64%
Multiple Choice Poll. Voters: 83. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 07-27-2013, 05:32 PM   #26
JonzFaSTi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 85575
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Orange County, CA
Vehicle:
2013 STi
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

My first poll so I apologize if it was done poorly. I should have been a little more specific in the title (I updated the OP). "If the STI had ALL forged internals."

It was actually a JD power article that had Subaru and the 3rd worst (just above Mitsubishi) for their APEAL study.

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/pre...peal-study.htm

These are all owners that just purchased their vehicles and with so many new, stock STI getting engines replaced when is Subaru going to figure out a way to correct these issues?
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
JonzFaSTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 05:39 PM   #27
JonzFaSTi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 85575
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Orange County, CA
Vehicle:
2013 STi
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_c_the_light View Post
All EJ engines have forged rods and crank.
So you are saying the EJ253 has forged internals? I highly doubt that, but thanks for your input. Next you're gonna say it was also a semi closed deck.

Last edited by JonzFaSTi; 07-27-2013 at 05:46 PM.
JonzFaSTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 05:44 PM   #28
96SubyImpreza
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 157692
Join Date: Aug 2007
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Albany, NY
Vehicle:
2004 WRX
"Big Red"

Default

EJ207's for everyone :3
96SubyImpreza is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 08:50 PM   #29
neko
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 46500
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Idaho
Vehicle:
'04 FXT & '98 L

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by 96SubyImpreza View Post
EJ207's for everyone :3
I 2nd this. Would save me a lot of time right now with my FXT. just a nice low-mile used one to drop in, thank you.
neko is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 09:12 PM   #30
JustyWRC
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 153088
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Arlington, TN
Vehicle:
2005 Baja Turbo
09 WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonzFaSTi View Post
My first poll so I apologize if it was done poorly. I should have been a little more specific in the title (I updated the OP). "If the STI had ALL forged internals."

It was actually a JD power article that had Subaru and the 3rd worst (just above Mitsubishi) for their APEAL study.

http://autos.jdpower.com/content/pre...peal-study.htm

These are all owners that just purchased their vehicles and with so many new, stock STI getting engines replaced when is Subaru going to figure out a way to correct these issues?
No.....

Just....no....

Quote:
Originally Posted by p951951951t View Post

People will believe anything they read on forums these days

This OP......


It's...not....THAT....many

And I would STILL challenge many of those "stock" claims.....

Modded car? I could care less....
JustyWRC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-27-2013, 10:20 PM   #31
WoodsWagon
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 180769
Join Date: May 2008
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Vehicle:
lots of junkers

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by p951951951t View Post
What a bunch of crap^

People will believe anything they read on forums these days
Are you saying my reasons for Subaru not running forged pistons are a bunch of crap? Meeting emissions regs, NVH specs, and controlling costs all go into picking cast pistons over forged.
WoodsWagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 01:15 AM   #32
p951951951t
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 276541
Join Date: Mar 2011
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: North Georgia
Vehicle:
1972 Alfa Romeo GTV
Alfa Rosso

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodsWagon View Post
Are you saying my reasons for Subaru not running forged pistons are a bunch of crap? Meeting emissions regs, NVH specs, and controlling costs all go into picking cast pistons over forged.
If you believe that then I have a proposition for you, all you have to do is send me a check for 10,000 and you can inherit 2,000,000 dollars!
p951951951t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 01:17 AM   #33
rexblake
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 178426
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: FoCo
Vehicle:
2010 Audi S4
Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by p951951951t View Post
If you believe that then I have a proposition for you, all you have to do is send me a check for 10,000 and you can inherit 2,000,000 dollars!
Alright, I admit, I'm curious what your crazy insane smart reasoning is. What's your theory on why Subaru doesn't used forged pistons.
rexblake is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 01:33 AM   #34
kpluiten
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 120273
Join Date: Jul 2006
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: AZ
Vehicle:
06 WRBWRXWGN
Now with 100% more Spec-C

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by p951951951t View Post
If you believe that then I have a proposition for you, all you have to do is send me a check for 10,000 and you can inherit 2,000,000 dollars!
Care to explain why what he is saying is incorrect? We're curious. Right now he's offering a logical explanation. You're offering ridicule. Guess who is more believable at this point?
kpluiten is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 01:41 AM   #35
i_c_the_light
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 88618
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: New Zealand
Vehicle:
1994 Legacy
"The Silver Slug"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonzFaSTi View Post
So you are saying the EJ253 has forged internals? I highly doubt that, but thanks for your input. Next you're gonna say it was also a semi closed deck.
Yes. All OEM EJ crank and rods are forged. In the case of the early phase I engines, all turbo and N/A (except EJ25D - crank and rods were obviously larger because of increased stroke) EJ engines all used the same internals (obviously not pistons). From the SPFI EJ18 all the way to the 22B's EJ22G. They all used the same crankshaft and connecting rods. This was verified with part numbers ages ago here. The '99 EJ22 has the same forged crank and rods as the EJ205.

Why is this surprising?
i_c_the_light is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 04:36 AM   #36
Uncle Scotty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 16200
Join Date: Mar 2002
Vehicle:
OK Houston
we have an Uncle

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluiten View Post
Care to explain why what he is saying is incorrect? We're curious. Right now he's offering a logical explanation. You're offering ridicule. Guess who is more believable at this point?

the d000000d is an idiot...leave him alone
Uncle Scotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 06:18 AM   #37
jork
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 359613
Join Date: Jun 2013
Chapter/Region: International
Location: VIC, Australia
Vehicle:
2013 WRX Prem
SWP

Default

if it comes out of factory = $$$$ instead of $$. end.
jork is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 12:42 PM   #38
p951951951t
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 276541
Join Date: Mar 2011
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: North Georgia
Vehicle:
1972 Alfa Romeo GTV
Alfa Rosso

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jork View Post
if it comes out of factory = $$$$ instead of $$. end.
This guy gets it

Quote:
Originally Posted by rexblake View Post
Alright, I admit, I'm curious what your crazy insane smart reasoning is. What's your theory on why Subaru doesn't used forged pistons.
No theory necassary. It's cheaper, period. Subarus are mass produced comsumer vehicles. Not exactly a no expense spared type of deal.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kpluiten View Post
Care to explain why what he is saying is incorrect? We're curious. Right now he's offering a logical explanation. You're offering ridicule. Guess who is more believable at this point?
I don't need to explain anything to you, common sense and about 5 minutes of research on metallurgy will handle that perfectly.

The "Forged pistons expand a bajillion times more than cast ones" myth has been circulating the internet for years, it's it's BS now just like it was then. Do your homework instead of just buying into whatever you happen to read on nasioc.
p951951951t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 12:43 PM   #39
p951951951t
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 276541
Join Date: Mar 2011
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: North Georgia
Vehicle:
1972 Alfa Romeo GTV
Alfa Rosso

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post
the d000000d is an idiot...leave him alone
Still sore from the ass-whoopin you got in our fluid dynamics debate?
p951951951t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 01:54 PM   #40
JonzFaSTi
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 85575
Join Date: Apr 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: Orange County, CA
Vehicle:
2013 STi
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by i_c_the_light View Post

Yes. All OEM EJ crank and rods are forged. In the case of the early phase I engines, all turbo and N/A (except EJ25D - crank and rods were obviously larger because of increased stroke) EJ engines all used the same internals (obviously not pistons). From the SPFI EJ18 all the way to the 22B's EJ22G. They all used the same crankshaft and connecting rods. This was verified with part numbers ages ago here. The '99 EJ22 has the same forged crank and rods as the EJ205.

Why is this surprising?
Maybe you're right but not something i remember from my 05 rs research which was my first Subaru.
JonzFaSTi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 02:23 PM   #41
i_c_the_light
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 88618
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: New Zealand
Vehicle:
1994 Legacy
"The Silver Slug"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by JonzFaSTi

Maybe you're right but not something i remember from my 05 rs research which was my first Subaru.
Because it's not a big deal, nor common knowledge.
i_c_the_light is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 06:01 PM   #42
WoodsWagon
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 180769
Join Date: May 2008
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Vehicle:
lots of junkers

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by p951951951t View Post
The "Forged pistons expand a bajillion times more than cast ones" myth has been circulating the internet for years, it's it's BS now just like it was then. Do your homework instead of just buying into whatever you happen to read on nasioc.
Why do the aftermarket forged pistons come with a higher cylinder wall to piston clearance spec than the factory cast pistons then? It's not a bajillion times more expansion, but it's enough to make the engine clatter more on start up, and customers that just paid $30k for a car don't want to hear that.

You're also focusing on the expansion issue only. Forged pistons won't buy you much with a high top ring with a tight ring end gap. If you start turning the power up above stock levels, those will come and bite you in the ass anyway. And they're required to keep the emissions within regs as it comes from the manufacturer.
WoodsWagon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 06:29 PM   #43
Uncle Scotty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 16200
Join Date: Mar 2002
Vehicle:
OK Houston
we have an Uncle

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by p951951951t View Post
Still sore from the ass-whoopin you got in our fluid dynamics debate?




i think yew need some more d0pe....LOTS more...cuz yew aint high enough yet
Uncle Scotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 06:46 PM   #44
nmlittlebigman
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 321409
Join Date: May 2012
Chapter/Region: SWIC
Location: Arrey, NM
Vehicle:
2011 WRX STi Sedan
WRB Stage II T.P. tuned

Default

AND the EVO guys ask the same type of questions:

http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39212

It just shows that people want to be able to walk into a dealership and buy a race car.
nmlittlebigman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 09:55 PM   #45
GrumpyPitbull
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 313311
Join Date: Mar 2012
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by nmlittlebigman View Post
AND the EVO guys ask the same type of questions:

http://www.evoxforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=39212

It just shows that people want to be able to walk into a dealership and buy a race car.
Exactly.

And don't forget, they want a race car with 100K+ mile reliabilty as well.
GrumpyPitbull is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 10:37 PM   #46
p951951951t
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 276541
Join Date: Mar 2011
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: North Georgia
Vehicle:
1972 Alfa Romeo GTV
Alfa Rosso

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WoodsWagon View Post
Why do the aftermarket forged pistons come with a higher cylinder wall to piston clearance spec than the factory cast pistons then? It's not a bajillion times more expansion, but it's enough to make the engine clatter more on start up, and customers that just paid $30k for a car don't want to hear that.

You're also focusing on the expansion issue only. Forged pistons won't buy you much with a high top ring with a tight ring end gap. If you start turning the power up above stock levels, those will come and bite you in the ass anyway. And they're required to keep the emissions within regs as it comes from the manufacturer.
Do you honestly believe manufacturers can't build cars with forged pistons for emissions reasons? If subaru wanted to, they could build a car that meets emissions requirements with forged pistons without any trouble, just like many manufacturers already do.

OE equipment =/ aftermarket equipment. Aftermarket pistons are DESIGNED as retrofits and thus have plenty of their own reasons for erring on the side of caution when it comes to clearances, the least of which is different thermal properties (there is plenty of data comparing the alloys of popular aftermarket forged pistons to factory cast ones in this respect, google it).

For example, here are the spec sheets from a porsche - note that these specs apply across 3 distinct models - two of which are FORGED and the other is CAST. Note the tight tolerances and the fact that these same specs are applied to all 3 models regardless of the process by which the pistons were manufactured. There is plenty of data out there, I just had this on hand.



The myth about forged pistons somehow magically expanding way more than cast ones is just that - a myth. About 5 minutes worht of research will reveal that. IT's perpetuated by people who believe everything they read on the internet as well as some aftermarket piston manufacturers who get tired of trying to explain things to people. Sure, some designs expand more in some ways based on thermal characteristics of that design, but it has absolutely nothing (well, very little) to do with being forged VS cast.

It's perfectly possible for a manufacturer to make forged pistons designed to use tolerances equal to that of cast components. Period.

Last edited by p951951951t; 07-28-2013 at 10:55 PM.
p951951951t is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-28-2013, 11:57 PM   #47
Ghost_92TSi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 352247
Join Date: Apr 2013
Default

Cheaper to have them put in from the factory then to put them in later. I'd pay the extra, sure there are some that never had issues but do you really want to roll the dice? It is R&D if there is an issure fix it and move on, if that is the weak link, improve it and see what is next. Consumer car or not, do it only for the sti model and not the wrx then, it's an STI they are rally cars, though they lost some of that after 07. Rally feel went away with the "consumer comfy stis" they have now. If people didn't want performance why would they even bother with an sti and just get a regular impreza.

Last edited by Ghost_92TSi; 07-29-2013 at 12:28 AM.
Ghost_92TSi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2013, 02:19 AM   #48
i_c_the_light
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 88618
Join Date: Jun 2005
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: New Zealand
Vehicle:
1994 Legacy
"The Silver Slug"

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by p951951951t

Do you honestly believe manufacturers can't build cars with forged pistons for emissions reasons? If subaru wanted to, they could build a car that meets emissions requirements with forged pistons without any trouble, just like many manufacturers already do.

OE equipment =/ aftermarket equipment. Aftermarket pistons are DESIGNED as retrofits and thus have plenty of their own reasons for erring on the side of caution when it comes to clearances, the least of which is different thermal properties (there is plenty of data comparing the alloys of popular aftermarket forged pistons to factory cast ones in this respect, google it).

For example, here are the spec sheets from a porsche - note that these specs apply across 3 distinct models - two of which are FORGED and the other is CAST. Note the tight tolerances and the fact that these same specs are applied to all 3 models regardless of the process by which the pistons were manufactured. There is plenty of data out there, I just had this on hand.

The myth about forged pistons somehow magically expanding way more than cast ones is just that - a myth. About 5 minutes worht of research will reveal that. IT's perpetuated by people who believe everything they read on the internet as well as some aftermarket piston manufacturers who get tired of trying to explain things to people. Sure, some designs expand more in some ways based on thermal characteristics of that design, but it has absolutely nothing (well, very little) to do with being forged VS cast.

It's perfectly possible for a manufacturer to make forged pistons designed to use tolerances equal to that of cast components. Period.
I think it's fair to say nobody cares now.
i_c_the_light is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2013, 03:02 AM   #49
Uncle Scotty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 16200
Join Date: Mar 2002
Vehicle:
OK Houston
we have an Uncle

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by p951951951t View Post
Do you honestly believe manufacturers can't build cars with forged pistons for emissions reasons? If subaru wanted to, they could build a car that meets emissions requirements with forged pistons without any trouble, just like many manufacturers already do.

OE equipment =/ aftermarket equipment. Aftermarket pistons are DESIGNED as retrofits and thus have plenty of their own reasons for erring on the side of caution when it comes to clearances, the least of which is different thermal properties (there is plenty of data comparing the alloys of popular aftermarket forged pistons to factory cast ones in this respect, google it).

For example, here are the spec sheets from a porsche - note that these specs apply across 3 distinct models - two of which are FORGED and the other is CAST. Note the tight tolerances and the fact that these same specs are applied to all 3 models regardless of the process by which the pistons were manufactured. There is plenty of data out there, I just had this on hand.



The myth about forged pistons somehow magically expanding way more than cast ones is just that - a myth. About 5 minutes worht of research will reveal that. IT's perpetuated by people who believe everything they read on the internet as well as some aftermarket piston manufacturers who get tired of trying to explain things to people. Sure, some designs expand more in some ways based on thermal characteristics of that design, but it has absolutely nothing (well, very little) to do with being forged VS cast.

It's perfectly possible for a manufacturer to make forged pistons designed to use tolerances equal to that of cast components. Period.
d0000000000d....soobaroo is a small auto maker with limited resources

for them to be able to put forged pistons in their engines and pass emissions wouldnt be financially feasable...the cost of making all the tolerences work is far higher than YOU think it is

or they would be doing it......and not paying for so many new motors

so...in the end...it is STILL emissions that makes it not gonna happen

there was another thread here some time ago that went into great detail about all of this and your whole arguement went out the window on page 2.....and will continue to go out the window

do ya think they would DO something if they could afford it???
how much do they spend on new motors for those that blow up???

its a pretty big number
Uncle Scotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 07-29-2013, 09:15 AM   #50
p951951951t
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 276541
Join Date: Mar 2011
Chapter/Region: South East
Location: North Georgia
Vehicle:
1972 Alfa Romeo GTV
Alfa Rosso

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post
d0000000000d....soobaroo is a small auto maker with limited resources
Relatively speaking, yes

Quote:
for them to be able to put forged pistons in their engines and pass emissions wouldnt be financially feasable...the cost of making all the tolerences work is far higher than YOU think it is
Then again, maybe it's not as high as you think it is. Much smaller automakers were successfully using tolerances almost as tight for forged pistons with tons of success even in the 80s. In the end, you are right, money is the issue. The issue is NOT "The expansion rates of forged pistons" That is an internet myth, pure and simple, and it needs to stop being repeated.

Quote:
or they would be doing it......and not paying for so many new motors

so...in the end...it is STILL emissions that makes it not gonna happen
That's purely speculation. You have no idea what the costs are. The engineering needed to make forged pistons work with very tight tolerances is relatively simple and as I said, even small manufacturers have been making it work since the 80s. Subaru is a modern manufacturer with tons of engineering resources and tools at their disposal. You really think it would be that difficult?

The fact is that no matter how small or large the cost (lets be honest, we are both just speculating about that), subaru won't do it because it's not necessary. The factory pistons are fine for the car out of the box.

Quote:
there was another thread here some time ago that went into great detail about all of this and your whole arguement went out the window on page 2.....and will continue to go out the window
My argument will never go out the window because it's based on facts. Aftermarket forged pistons having much larger tolerances because the forged pistons expand much more, therefore making it impossible to have tight tolerances with forged pistons, is a myth. It's perfectly possible to make high performance forged pistons with tight tolerances, low emissions, low NVH etc.
p951951951t is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:38 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.