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Old 08-06-2013, 06:28 PM   #1401
Snowphun
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The kit apparently comes with new axles, but as far as I can tell it does use the front control arms, so I don't see how it could use sedan or wagon interchangeably. My potential donor is a wagon so I'm curious how this will play out, might be an excuse to find aluminum sedan arms.
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Old 08-07-2013, 05:30 AM   #1402
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I think I figured out the wagon/sedan track issue. Looking at some of the build threads, there are two different mounting holes for the lower control arms, spaced slightly apart. So I'm guessing it's been designed to use either wagon or sedan control arms.
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Old 08-08-2013, 12:04 PM   #1403
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AKGC8 View Post
What's track width is the 818 designed for, wagon, sedan?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AKGC8 View Post
there are two different mounting holes for the lower control arms, spaced slightly apart. So I'm guessing it's been designed to use either wagon or sedan control arms.
Correct. For upper suspension pieces there are also two holes, 1 for S ride height and 1 for R ride height.

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Originally Posted by Snowphun View Post
The kit apparently comes with new axles.
Axles are for the rear. It's not a complete CV assembly. You take the new axle shaft (just the steel rod more or less) and put the original front inner CV on one end and the original rear outer CV on the other to allow the rear hubs to be driven from the front output shats of the transmission.
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Old 08-08-2013, 12:53 PM   #1404
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Will a car with wagon control arms have a narrower front track? I'm not able to picture the geometry. Are those the only parts used from the donor that are different between a wagon and sedan?
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Old 08-08-2013, 01:25 PM   #1405
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No. The Sedan arms mount inwards towards teh centerline, the wagon arms mount outwards away from the centerline so that the balljoint is in the same position. The upper arm is adjustable as well to more than make up for any difference.
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Old 08-08-2013, 07:35 PM   #1406
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I'm just curious how it'll effect camber curve and instant&roll centers...just because I'm curious.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:28 PM   #1407
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Already a broken 5 speed .

Told you...
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Old 08-15-2013, 02:12 PM   #1408
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Already a broken 5 speed .

Told you...
Yes.

In a car running a large turbo (est. 340whp) with race slicks and an unknown history on the transmission. Not terribly surprising.

Will mine break? Maybe someday. It lasted 4 years at 351wtq in a wrx before breaking the first time. It should last longer this time in a lighter vehicle. It's also no longer in a needed DD car, so if it breaks I park it and figure it out then.
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Old 08-15-2013, 07:03 PM   #1409
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechie3 View Post
Yes.

In a car running a large turbo (est. 340whp) with race slicks and an unknown history on the transmission. Not terribly surprising.

Will mine break? Maybe someday. It lasted 4 years at 351wtq in a wrx before breaking the first time. It should last longer this time in a lighter vehicle. It's also no longer in a needed DD car, so if it breaks I park it and figure it out then.
340whp.... is nothing... You guys were claiming that the 5 speed was going to last forever because the car was so light and RWD... . I know of a WRX with 160k miles that makes around that power on E85 and is still on the stock transmission with many trips to the track.

Just accept that they should have designed the car to use the 6-speed as well.
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Old 08-15-2013, 07:40 PM   #1410
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
340whp.... is nothing... You guys were claiming that the 5 speed was going to last forever because the car was so light and RWD... . I know of a WRX with 160k miles that makes around that power on E85 and is still on the stock transmission with many trips to the track.

Just accept that they should have designed the car to use the 6-speed as well.
You and I know that the tranny does not usually break the first time it's submitted to a lot of torque/power. It's the repeated abuse that does it in.
The problem is that we don't know the full history of the tranny that they used in that 818.
But, you're right, if it was indeed possible/doable, they should have designed the car to use either the 5-speed or the 6-speed. Alternatively, they could have dropped a built 5-speed in there (gear set, Moore Blast plates, the works).
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Old 08-16-2013, 02:27 AM   #1411
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but a built, reinforced 5sp costs more than a 6sp!
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Old 08-16-2013, 10:34 AM   #1412
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It's also ~75 lbs lighter, which is the whole point of using the 5 sp in this car. If a PPG 5 sp is the only upgrade I have to do get a reliable 400 whp in a 2000 lb car that cost me less than $20k, I don't really see why anyone should be complaining.
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Old 08-16-2013, 12:12 PM   #1413
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lil'redwagon View Post
but a built, reinforced 5sp costs more than a 6sp!
and also all built 5-speed transmission are inferior to a stock 6-speed as far as strenght goes.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank A View Post
It's also ~75 lbs lighter, which is the whole point of using the 5 sp in this car. If a PPG 5 sp is the only upgrade I have to do get a reliable 400 whp in a 2000 lb car that cost me less than $20k, I don't really see why anyone should be complaining.
75lbs could have been save somewhere else. IMO is kind stupid to try to save weight on a component that is crucial to realibily. The way I see it like running 3qts of oil instead of 4qts . Also 75lbs are not going to slow your track times by a second... l
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Old 08-16-2013, 02:03 PM   #1414
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Juan I think you will have a better arguement if the 5spds are unreliable at stock or close to stock power levels.

As it is, if it can be reliable with sub 300whp, 75lbs is certainly significant weight savings and especially at an extremity that would certainly affect weight balance and distribution.

Also, what did you have in mind that could be redesigned and save 75lbs and stick the 818's price goal? Just curious.

I agree that FFR should have considered the 6spd in the design for atleast an option for people like you, but if the trans is reliable with stockish hp, they have nailed an Affordable easily sourced special feeling race car with about as proper of a weight balance as they could manage with affordable Subaru hardware. 6spds are great, but they aren't cheap, they don't typically come in $5k wrecked wrx's, and they are heavier. It's not a hard arguement to understand IF(big if) the 5spd can remain reliable at ~275whp levels.
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Old 08-16-2013, 04:42 PM   #1415
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Quote:
Originally Posted by juanmedina View Post
You guys were claiming that the 5 speed was going to last forever because the car was so light and RWD.
I dont think I claimed one way or another, though there were many that were adamant it would last forever. Again, history of the parts plays a big role too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by lil'redwagon View Post
but a built, reinforced 5sp costs more than a 6sp!
Several of the 818 guys arent blinking at all adding $2k aftermarket engine control and $3k traction control. A lt of these guys have money to burn.

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Originally Posted by Swine View Post
6spds are great, but they aren't cheap, they don't typically come in $5k wrecked wrx's, and they are heavier. It's not a hard arguement to understand IF(big if) the 5spd can remain reliable at ~275whp levels.
Single donor was a big deal. Yes, provisions for the 6 speed to be an option would have been nice. Maybe in the future.
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Old 08-16-2013, 04:49 PM   #1416
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swine View Post
As it is, if it can be reliable with sub 300whp, 75lbs is certainly significant weight savings and especially at an extremity that would certainly affect weight balance and distribution.
It's unclear to me what is preventing an STI trans from fitting, hopefully FFR will have some simple options to accommodate it in the future. Understandably there are many people who would prefer to use an STI as the donor, I imagine it would be bittersweet to put much of your donor in but have to find a "lowly" WRX trans.

As it is I am skeptical many will be getting the weight down to 818kg.
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Old 08-16-2013, 05:02 PM   #1417
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Who cares? Even at 250whp these cars are going to be stupid fast. Building a 400whp 818 is pretty much missing the point.
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Old 08-16-2013, 07:50 PM   #1418
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Swine View Post
Juan I think you will have a better arguement if the 5spds are unreliable at stock or close to stock power levels.

As it is, if it can be reliable with sub 300whp, 75lbs is certainly significant weight savings and especially at an extremity that would certainly affect weight balance and distribution.

Also, what did you have in mind that could be redesigned and save 75lbs and stick the 818's price goal? Just curious.

I agree that FFR should have considered the 6spd in the design for atleast an option for people like you, but if the trans is reliable with stockish hp, they have nailed an Affordable easily sourced special feeling race car with about as proper of a weight balance as they could manage with affordable Subaru hardware. 6spds are great, but they aren't cheap, they don't typically come in $5k wrecked wrx's, and they are heavier. It's not a hard arguement to understand IF(big if) the 5spd can remain reliable at ~275whp levels.
The weight on the back may aid traction who knows. The extra 75lbs can be loose by using a light weight battery and some wheels other than the Rota's .

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mechie3 View Post
I dont think I claimed one way or another, though there were many that were adamant it would last forever. Again, history of the parts plays a big role too.
.
I think the history of broken 5-speed boxes will prove again to be true.

I rather have a car that I know I can beat on and that is going to be reliable instead of driving a car that at any moment can leave me stranded.

Good luck with your car, I myself may buy a kit in the future.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Hondaslayer View Post
Who cares? Even at 250whp these cars are going to be stupid fast. Building a 400whp 818 is pretty much missing the point.
My WRX with a VF39 on E85 was as fast as a 2000lb with 250whps... it felt ok but not stupid fast.
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Old 08-17-2013, 02:08 AM   #1419
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a used 5sp from a 5K donor car with unknown mileage... will it handle 275whp? probably. would it handle it reliably? define reliably. if a consequence of bolting a "reliable" part into my car is that i don't have to baby it, or change how i'd like to drive, then no. if i put a 5sp in there, i'd baby it, and i'd be worried about it. that's why i put a 6sp in my car. and that's also one of the tings keeping me from getting an 818 kit at the moment - they don't even have provisions for people who already have a 6sp.

the other thing about the 5sp/6sp topic is that, as mentioned, the car had humble goals. it's a light car so it doesn't need huge power and bulletproof parts to be fun. so they provided a solution for wrx donors to be faster than sti's with a much lower entry point. but maybe they underestimated the fact that subaru enthusiasts already exceed the performance levels of stock sti's, and that almost all car guys (the target market for this car) always want MORE. so since they did such a good job of exceeding the performance capabilities of an sti, then the sti guys want in on it too! and they want to transfer their better engineered sti parts that they already have, instead of downgrading to make the swap. evidence of these car guys who want MORE, is in your example of people with money to burn. i'm going to guess that those people would rather spend their money on a stock 6sp that can handle the power, instead of spending money reinforcing a weaker design.
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Old 08-18-2013, 10:15 AM   #1420
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With the eschelon of 'MORE',and this being a track car (let's not lie); adding 80 lbs to the 818 is a lot of weight. That weight is also now pretty much all behind the rear axle line too. Talking adding to the polar moment!!

On that note, I'm quite interested to see where the emco gear boxes end up. Having done some preliminary 5-spd reinforcement work with Turn In Concepts st2 car (hodge podge of ppg and OEM gears) and getting good feedback, I'm curious to see how this can carry over to higher power level and a fully built 5-spd.
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Old 08-18-2013, 02:35 PM   #1421
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Everyone that wishes for the option of using a 6 speed is looking for exactly that, the option of using the 6 speed instead of the 5 speed despite the additional weight and possible expense. Nobody has said FFR should have designed the car to accept only the 6 speed.

I don't think anybody has even posted any info regarding clearance issues related to installing the 6 speed, so there is little accurate info regarding what would be necessary to install the 6 speed.
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Old 08-18-2013, 03:12 PM   #1422
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Oh, not disagreeing with that. I think it is pretty obvious that it should have been designed for both.

I'm just thinking of the obvious downside. IIRC, they has tried doing doing it on that tr42 exo car. I still would have gone with a Getrag from a Boxster S.
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Old 08-18-2013, 08:35 PM   #1423
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Bottom line, you can't limit the donor pool to STis. This was a world car, meant to be accomplished on the cheap. The Subaru 5-speed is just that. It's everywhere. It's the transmission that fits with the lego-esque nature of Subarus.
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Old 08-18-2013, 08:42 PM   #1424
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On the subject of the 6mt, does anyone even make a conversion to make it a FWD transmission? 5mt can be done using factor parts........
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Old 08-19-2013, 03:15 PM   #1425
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There is a kit to convert a 6speed but its in the range of $1000. The issue is rear end clearance. The shift lever has minimal clearance with the rear bumper as is.
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