Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Monday September 22, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Built Motor Discussion

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-22-2013, 09:16 PM   #1
04subielover
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 347637
Join Date: Feb 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: IL
Vehicle:
2004 wrx
White

Default Ej205 2.1 stroker or ej257 2.34 destroker goal 400-500 DD

I'm looking at building a motor for my 04 wrx guys, I'm looking at either doing a 2.1 stroked with my motor and maybe v7 Avcs heads if I can or I have a good deal on a 04 ej257 complete motor with heads and run those without Avcs ATM and I would destroke it to a 2.34 with maybe a ej207 crank. Car is my DD and will have a 6speed. ATM it's a stock motor on a Fp green on e85. I'm gonna be running a blouch Dom 3.0xtr turbo I have with either a 8cm or a 10cm housing.

Well what's your guys opinion. I drive a lot of country roads and do a lot of pulls, it's my daily driver and I will run corn all the time but will have a pump map also. My goal is 400-500 hp reliable motor and it seems like the destroker will Allow me to be pretty rev happy. I have all supporting mods and will have supporting mods for either motor I build.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
04subielover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 12:04 AM   #2
spackyscooby
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 169257
Join Date: Jan 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Idaho
Vehicle:
00 rsti & 04 fxt
millenium jade

Default

Wow, those are very different sides of the spectrum. Just going off the power goal and your desire for long term reliability I would lean more towards the destroke after everything I have read on here. It should have a bit more off boost tq and will support the 500+ numbers easier/longer when you get bored. I am by no means an expert so take what I say knowing it is simply an opinion and you know what is said about those...

Last edited by spackyscooby; 08-23-2013 at 12:21 AM.
spackyscooby is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 02:28 PM   #3
emozer
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 355200
Join Date: May 2013
Chapter/Region: International
Location: Brazil
Vehicle:
2004 Impreza WRX
Black Pearl

Default

Hi dude,

I'm not any Subaru expert but to me it sounds logic that, if you have a good deal buying a complete EJ257 just stick to it and put your money on supporting mods to make your power target more reliable. If not, go for a 2.1L stroker because this 2.3L destroked will behave, when off boost, much like your 2.0L apart from the extra "cc". What makes the 2.1L stroker better off boost is the R/L ratio, not the 125cc.
In turns, if you sum up everything you need for either a stroker or destroker build plus work it will be cheaper just stuff a stock EJ257 in there.

My 2 cents.
emozer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 03:11 PM   #4
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Vehicle:
96 bastard child
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

You have corn? High compression 2.0l and be done. Stupid simple and you aren't asking for big numbers. I will advise using the newer 207 style crank. I have them nitrided in batches for the destroked builds.

You seem pretty informed on the pros and cons of the various bottom ends, so I don't feel the need to restate.

As you play with a car, off boost area shouldn't be a concern unless you don't know how to use gears :P

As for a dd on e85, the high cr will help with cold starts, putting around town and being a 2.0l would help fuel economy

Also would save cost on the build. 2.5 is going to want pistons at that level.

Destroked is fun. It's why Dom and I started designing, building and selling them.

-Micah
3MI Racing
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 03:48 PM   #5
04subielover
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 347637
Join Date: Feb 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: IL
Vehicle:
2004 wrx
White

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
You have corn? High compression 2.0l and be done. Stupid simple and you aren't asking for big numbers. I will advise using the newer 207 style crank. I have them nitrided in batches for the destroked builds.

You seem pretty informed on the pros and cons of the various bottom ends, so I don't feel the need to restate.

As you play with a car, off boost area shouldn't be a concern unless you don't know how to use gears :P

As for a dd on e85, the high cr will help with cold starts, putting around town and being a 2.0l would help fuel economy

Also would save cost on the build. 2.5 is going to want pistons at that level.

Destroked is fun. It's why Dom and I started designing, building and selling them.

-Micah
3MI Racing
I was looking for the added displacement to help spool the Dom 3.0xtr I got for a great deal.. I can buy the ej257 with heads in good shape for 300, has a cracked ring land but all else is good, I would forged any motor I do just seems like the Dom 3.0 on a 2.0 wouldn't spool till 6k plus and I want a wide power band with around 450hp at the wheels and it seems like the destroke has that and from what I read is reliable. Not too familiar with high compression motors at all. I don't like how my Fp green 7cm is on my 2.0 full boost at 4,200 and I rev to about 7 on a 5'speed its decent but not fun enough, I'm getting a good deal on a 07 6speed so that will help too. Another plus is I still wanna drive my car while I build a motor. People have told me to just build a 2.5 hybrid, build a 2.1 stroker, build a ej22t and so on I'm just confused on what route I wanna go but i wanna be unique with torque and power. I want to leave room in the future for more power and not have to change the motor again. I'd love Avcs but I wanna keep my Cobb to swap between pump n e85 if I have to go on a trip. I can always sell the Dom tho and go rotated on a 30r or 6262 or something. I was just planning around what I had/can get for a good deal.

Last edited by 04subielover; 08-23-2013 at 04:08 PM.
04subielover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 04:00 PM   #6
04subielover
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 347637
Join Date: Feb 2013
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: IL
Vehicle:
2004 wrx
White

Default

So far my mods are stock motor, stock trans with a spec 6puck, Fp green 2.4 7cm, up pipe, boost solenoid, invidia turbo back, tgv deletes ported and polished same with intake, sti Top mount, id1000's, wally 255, and a aps 65 cold air protuned on a Cobb.


Parts I have waiting to go on/ laying around
Aps dr725 fm
Dom 3.0xtr 10cm can buy 8cm
Long runner 2.5i intake mani flipped with custom piping
Speed density setup
External gate up pipe
Tial bov
07sti driveline
Invidia race el header
And can grab that 2004 ej257 with heads for 300.

I was gonna do a custom up pipe and maybe rotate the Dom to help better routing the fm piping. I can tig weld and fab so that's no biggie.
04subielover is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 06:47 PM   #7
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Vehicle:
96 bastard child
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

Well you know that I love destroked engines but I really went into that design with intent being for the road course. A well balanced 2.5L build would be a nice choice though. They can rev too, just not as high. The Honey Badger from Turn In Concepts would be a good example. Internals were kept super light, wasn't designed to be a drag motor but a good hill climb, road course, autox type of build.

-Micah
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-23-2013, 08:32 PM   #8
Scuby04STi
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 328635
Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Portland*
Vehicle:
2004 STi GTX3076R
Rally Blue

Default

I have a 2.5 that is all forged, oversized valves, cams and a GTX3076R. Its pulls hard all the way from 4k up till 8k (might keep pulling its a DD so I stopped) made max power at redline so the 2.5 can rev and gain all the way up when done correctly.

As for a non standard set-up, my next build will more than likely be a 2.3 de-stroke, seeing they spool a LOT better than the 2.1 and rev extremely well. I also think that the turbo you plan to use would react much better with a 2.3 from what I have seen.

Your goal of 400-500 whp is right where I am currently at with just 91 and 1000cc injectors but my GTX is the tipping point that helped cause that on pump.

Also like it was stated above, if you shift properly on a higher revving motor you will NEVER be out of the power. Look at the gear ratio's I at most drop to 6k when I am looking to drive it on the track with an 8k shift point.
Scuby04STi is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-05-2013, 10:41 PM   #9
sonic_wrx189
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 207905
Join Date: Apr 2009
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Texas
Vehicle:
2003 subaru wrx
sonic yellow

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Homemade WRX View Post
You have corn? High compression 2.0l and be done. Stupid simple and you aren't asking for big numbers. I will advise using the newer 207 style crank. I have them nitrided in batches for the destroked builds.

You seem pretty informed on the pros and cons of the various bottom ends, so I don't feel the need to restate.

As you play with a car, off boost area shouldn't be a concern unless you don't know how to use gears :P

As for a dd on e85, the high cr will help with cold starts, putting around town and being a 2.0l would help fuel economy

Also would save cost on the build. 2.5 is going to want pistons at that level.

Destroked is fun. It's why Dom and I started designing, building and selling them.

-Micah
3MI Racing
When you say high comp, do you mean 9:1? 10:1? in the middle or more?
sonic_wrx189 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 05:51 AM   #10
stevecoii
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 367763
Join Date: Sep 2013
Chapter/Region: International
Location: indonesia surabaya
Vehicle:
2008 subaru wrx sti
red

Default

Greattttt job bro
stevecoii is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-08-2013, 07:40 AM   #11
WhatTurboLag?
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 243992
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Morton Grove, Illinois
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
WRB

Default

Long Rod 2.6!


(I didn't read the thread at all and just posted this for discussion as to why its a good or bad idea)
WhatTurboLag? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 03:34 PM   #12
Concillian
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 4414
Join Date: Feb 2001
Location: Dublin, CA
Vehicle:
2002 WRX Sedan
Midnight Black

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by sonic_wrx189 View Post
When you say high comp, do you mean 9:1? 10:1? in the middle or more?
I'd be pretty surprised if he means anything lower than 10:1.

E85 should be able to handle the typical 21-22ish psi tune that's limited by the stock MAP sensor at ~11:1 without too much difficulty.

10:1 for pure E85 is low... around that is what the big boy time attack cars that push like 30 pounds use.

I still like the idea of a 2.1L at 11 or 12:1 for a daily driver engine on E85. Still can't swing the financials of it. Maybe after we replace my wife's commuter.
Concillian is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 07:43 PM   #13
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Vehicle:
96 bastard child
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by WhatTurboLag? View Post
Long Rod 2.6!


(I didn't read the thread at all and just posted this for discussion as to why its a good or bad idea)
Because you can't fit a long rod ratio and 2.6L of displacement into a OEM sized EJ block....unless you made a 77mm crank and shoved the wrist pin (WAAY) into the oil ring; obviously already sleeved and running a big bore at the max limit. Even then you're rounding up to 2.6L (2541cc).

You'd need a 138.6mm rod to really call it a long rod. So that would put your compression height at 23.6mm if my off the cuff numbers are right. Doing them in my head.

Then you would run into the 'little' issue of trying to put the thing together
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 07:48 PM   #14
WhatTurboLag?
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 243992
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Morton Grove, Illinois
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
WRB

Default

What's a +2 102mm or bigger bore come out to with the appropriate crank? I am still learning about sleeving and long rod motors. Lots of research to do because I'm pretty confident I want a long rod and a sleeved motor.
WhatTurboLag? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 07:59 PM   #15
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Vehicle:
96 bastard child
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

the length of the rod doesn't change your displacemen.

On a 75mm stroke, the 132.5mm rod would be 1.77:1. +4mm is 1.793...which I 'cheat' and call a long rod, which by 'definition' is 1.8+.
102mm would put you at 2451cc. So 6cc or so less than a standard EJ25.
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 08:31 PM   #16
WhatTurboLag?
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 243992
Join Date: Apr 2010
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Morton Grove, Illinois
Vehicle:
2006 WRX TR
WRB

Default

Hmm. Well when the time comes ill post a thread or pm you. I can't decide. I am horrible at making up my mind.
WhatTurboLag? is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-09-2013, 09:59 PM   #17
Homemade WRX
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 33782
Join Date: Mar 2003
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: 3MI Racing LLC
Vehicle:
96 bastard child
search FIRST, then PM!!!

Default

PM isn't going to work. It just stays full because people decide to PM me about 20 times a day instead of searching for topics that have been covered. I'm actually 4 pm's over the limit because Ron/Unabomber keeps forcing them through.

Damn moderator power

If in doubt, make a thread...or if you want to buy parts, pm/email me through my company account.
Homemade WRX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-11-2013, 04:52 AM   #18
Back Road Runner
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 60082
Join Date: Apr 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Minnesota
Vehicle:
2004 Forester STI
Silver

Default

Displacement is your friend. You will need to get HP through torque or rpms. It tends to be easier through torque.

I don't get why you want to destroke a EJ25. It confuses me. Just run a stock EJ25 with forged pistons.

400-500hp isn't hard to do with the correct turbo size. Frankly I would just peruse this power bragging section for dyno results. Find some good results that meet your targets and mimic the build. There's no need to reinvent the wheel.
Back Road Runner is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:09 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.