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Old 09-30-2013, 03:35 PM   #3176
Splash
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Thanks all, I will soon be free to tear launches up again... (and find the next thing that breaks... )
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Old 09-30-2013, 04:21 PM   #3177
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Thanks all, I will soon be free to tear launches up again... (and find the next thing that breaks... )
There's a reason I carry a spare rear axle with me to events
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Old 10-10-2013, 07:51 PM   #3178
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Mounts are all done. Went with Torque Solution for all 4. Not nearly the increase in NVH I was expecting. It really just "talks" more to me, which is a lot more than I can say for the Rivals, which more remind me of that suspicious kid in the corner that is up to no good and says nothing.

I figured that, while I had a lift to use, I'd also replace my EVAP canister and the purge control valve. For far too long it has taken me FOREVER to gas up the car. I had taken to filling gas cans and filling the car with those. So, I get the canister mostly out and the front drops off the stud without the hoses hooked up. Next thing I know there are about 2 quarts or so of these tiny little black charcoal balls everywhere. I also found more of these little balls in the purge vacuum line that runs up front, so I unplugged it there and blew the line out, spilling more of these balls everywhere. I put the new valve and canister in and got all the hoses buttoned up when the shop owner walks up and asks how I'm doing...

"Just finishing up, then I have to clean up my balls, they're everywhere"... After an awkward silence, we just walked away and I went and got a broom.

Last edited by Splash; 10-10-2013 at 09:01 PM.
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Old 10-10-2013, 08:57 PM   #3179
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Old 10-10-2013, 09:25 PM   #3180
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Luckily I cleaned up my balls before they went everywhere (and saved 8 lbs)
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:29 AM   #3181
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Quote:
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"Just finishing up, then I have to clean up my balls, they're everywhere"...
I think they make a pill for that.
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Old 10-11-2013, 09:33 AM   #3182
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Hahaha I know you hate the rivals, however, I'm really not sure why. I like em :/. Great narrative....now go clean up your balls Mike
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Old 10-11-2013, 10:25 AM   #3183
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It's not really that I hate them, I mean, they seem to grip reasonably well. I just don't like that I can't feel that. They seem to me like a tire designed for folks who stab at pedals and yank on the wheel. Its "happy place" is so wide that it doesn't matter what you do when you are in it, the tire just takes it. There is a peak grip in there somewhere, but I certainly can't find it reliably.
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Old 10-11-2013, 12:55 PM   #3184
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get back on the RS3s or z2s... then we can compare at the couple locals I may still do next year...
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Old 10-11-2013, 04:21 PM   #3185
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Quote:
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They seem to me like a tire designed for folks who stab at pedals and yank on the wheel. Its "happy place" is so wide that it doesn't matter what you do when you are in it, the tire just takes it.
Well put. After hacking around on Rivals this year, I'm eager to see if I prefer the ZIIs. Based on my experience with Star Specs, I think I'll like having stiffer sidewalls again.
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Old 10-11-2013, 04:44 PM   #3186
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I wasn't sure until I drove a different STI on Z2's. I didn't even get two turns in before I noticed that I could tell immediately what was going on out there. In fact, I initially thought they communicated too much, but I eventually acclimated, which then made the Rivals feel that much more numb when I went back to them.
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Old 10-11-2013, 05:22 PM   #3187
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I can say the Lechump car I drive does well on the Rivals. We run the 225/45/15 and used to run the 205/50/15 Dunlop *Spec. However, we didn't notice a change in braking or acceleration grip between the two despite the size difference. I think if Dunlop made a 225/45/15 we'd switch back in the hopes we could brake even deeper into corners.

Assuming that carries over to bigger tires, I'd likely be on the ZII's if I ran a street tire class.
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Old 10-14-2013, 08:50 AM   #3188
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Just get ready to buy 2x the sets of tires. Austin and I ran Z2's 92 +/- 3 runs and they were on the verge of cording. That was at Grissom and Louisville (1 event).


I drove an STC civic yesterday...took a lot of getting used to. The owner wants me to buy it but it's just so slow coming from 3x the power lol.
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:23 AM   #3189
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splash View Post
I wasn't sure until I drove a different STI on Z2's. I didn't even get two turns in before I noticed that I could tell immediately what was going on out there. In fact, I initially thought they communicated too much, but I eventually acclimated, which then made the Rivals feel that much more numb when I went back to them.
We've done quite a bit of testing, and the ZII's are consistently about 0.5 seconds faster on a 30 second course. Tovsen had pretty much the same results on his STX BMW. The ZII's also feel far better IMHO. I spent several years on Hoosier A6's, so I appreciate the crispness of the ZII's, and find the vagueness of the Rivals annoying.

-Steve

p.s. Damn all those early testers who sang the praises of the Rivals. It cost me an extra set of tires!
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Old 10-14-2013, 10:54 AM   #3190
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Just get ready to buy 2x the sets of tires. Austin and I ran Z2's 92 +/- 3 runs and they were on the verge of cording. That was at Grissom and Louisville (1 event).
Grissom is concrete, right? They should last longer on asphalt.

Did y'all spray them? The only time I've had a co-driver was at Nats, and getting the tires cool enough with the quick turnaround was a challenge.
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:11 AM   #3191
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Did y'all spray them? The only time I've had a co-driver was at Nats, and getting the tires cool enough with the quick turnaround was a challenge.
Contrary to early reports, the ZII's do NOT like to get hot. They seem to work best when barely warm to the touch. At Nats, we were spraying our tires after every run on day 2, as they were overheating on day 1.

-Steve

p.s. We experienced more wear on the ZII's than on the Rivals. However, wear doesn't seem that out of line if you keep them cool and have your suspension set up correctly.
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Old 10-14-2013, 02:39 PM   #3192
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Grissom is concrete, right? They should last longer on asphalt.

Did y'all spray them? The only time I've had a co-driver was at Nats, and getting the tires cool enough with the quick turnaround was a challenge.
Yeah we sprayed them between each run after the first or second run typically. Yeah Grissom is concrete, grippy concrete.

I'm starting to see the argument for the vagueness of Rivals. That STC civic was on 100ish run rivals with 4/32nds and I couldnt get myself to trust it on turn in. Some of that is unfamiliarity with the car but when I did turn in, it was just bleh, tire squeel and then it would randomly let go.

I really liked the ZI's. ZI and ZII's had babies, I'd love them.

MNbiker = Agreed. The ZII's would get greasy when hot. By then it was almost impossible to cool them down in the midst of running.
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Old 10-14-2013, 06:55 PM   #3193
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Yeah I think I learned this year never to take a co-driver on ZIIs in the summer. 10 minutes wasn't even enough sometimes to cool them down.
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Old 10-14-2013, 08:03 PM   #3194
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Quote:
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Contrary to early reports, the ZII's do NOT like to get hot. They seem to work best when barely warm to the touch. At Nats, we were spraying our tires after every run on day 2, as they were overheating on day 1.
I generally spray my Rivals heavily after every run, regardless to weather. If they're only warm to the touch, I spray a little. If they're hot, I hose them down well. I did the same the second half of last year with my Star Specs, and have always had good results avoiding greasiness.

In Lincoln, I just couldn't get them cooled down, given the seemingly immediate turnaround with two drivers. I definitely learned a harsh lesson on heat management with a dual-driver car. If I find myself in that position again, I may try the ice cold towel method.
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Old 10-15-2013, 01:16 AM   #3195
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I suppose that's another issue I have with them, just like they don't feel any different at a 50* slip angle than they do at a 5* slip angle, they don't feel any different at 60*F than they do at 1200*K... (slight exaggeration there). I suppose the temp consistency is commendable, but I KNOW there is a fast spot in there somewhere, I just can't hardly ever find it, and recognize it when do.

It's to the point where I've basically stopped trying to drive them by feel and just listen to them. Luckily, they howl like mad, so it does become apparent when they are most unhappy.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:12 AM   #3196
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I think the issue runs deeper with the Rival. I was a lone driver at nats, and the tires were below ambient temp at the start of each run (except the damn rerun on day one), and they still gradually sucked more each run The greasy feeling may be caused by the carcass rather than the tread...
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:20 AM   #3197
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Just a note, no "praising" of Rivals here, just that the times between them and the Dunlops were pretty consistent with both within a tenth of each other. This was at both Fed Ex, Warminster (PA), and practice course at Spring Nats. This was also over multiple runs and various weather conditions. The Rival is still a great tire, it just doesn't feel like it and you just have to trust and know that it's there.

I completely agree that the ZII feels amazing...up until the point that the peak grip falls off. And as stated, the ZII does not like the heat, which was a major reason we didn't use them with two drivers. There just isn't enough time to cool them down, unless you're using ice water towels or something.

Watching video from Nats, I definitely left a good 0.3s on the table on the East course coming down into the showcase corner. Car got loose and had to catch it and wait on it and comparing it to my first run showed I lost a good chunk of time. Puts me within a tenth of Geoff. Day 2 I just feel like I didn't drive well, made a few minor mistakes that probably added up to at least a couple/few tenths. The rest of the lost time to Geoff had to do with the fact that he's just good. Looking back, I really don't think the tires were the deciding factor. But he was a single driver on Dunlops and had a really hard time improving after early runs.

If you think you can get it done on your first/second run and have a single driver and ice the tires, then the Dunlop is the tire. If you want to beat the crap out of the tires and just keep the cool normally and still have the ability to gain time, especially with two drivers, I think the Rival is the better tire. And of course the contingency is nice, ended up winning a total of 21 tires over the course of the year, can't complain about that.

Speaking of which: I have 4 sets of Rivals for sale that I will get rid of for around 10%-15% off of Tire Rack shipped prices. I have a set of 245/40/18's already, a set of 245/40/17's on Rota DPT's in black with about 2k street miles, going to order a brand new set of 245/40/17's, and also a set of 255/40/17's to try and sell to some STR peeps.

Disclaimer: the above statements were not made to try and sell above tires. Those are the same statements I've been making all year long. Perhaps it's my driving style (I use a lot of slip angle with the car), car setup, or whatever, but I think the Rivals produce the times. I hate the way they feel, but can't argue with the clock and the longevity.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:51 AM   #3198
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My two cents... both tires can get it done I have zero doubt.

zII - if you demand to have the good feedback that they provide, don't care about price, don't care about contingency, and are a single driver car.

rival - if you can live with a more r-comp type feedback, care about possible contingency (or just about a company that at least SOMEWHAT supports our crazy sport), or are a multi-driver format.

RS3 - codriven car driven on the sun, likely the best....

planning on staying on the rivals for 2014 here, gave up a free one @ Wilmington, I won't make that mistake next year. That and about $1500 worth of 'improvements' to the STU car to put it on par with the top dawgs, while I learn to drive it.
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Old 10-15-2013, 01:30 PM   #3199
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For those of you on RPF1 18x9.5s +45, what is your ride height set at? Trying to get a good starting point with 650/500 spring rates and have an event this weekend. Right now by memory I initially set it at about 13-3/8" rear and 13-7/8" front being a bit conservative about rubbing initially and have an event this weekend. Have a feeling it can actually go lower though. Also, how do you manage the switch for 17s in terms of height and alignment when used? I'm guessing set the alignment for the 18s, and the slight drop in height for 17s would mean a little more camber and slight toe out in front if even much at all which would be fine.
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Old 10-15-2013, 01:39 PM   #3200
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Umm...alignment won't change with changing wheels, the geometry remains the same just a different overall COG. The relation of the hubs to the rest of the suspension/chassis remains constant. Also with that, I've made no alignment changes when going between the two, but you might need to make changes to shocks/tire pressures as the balance might be a bit different. I found the 17's to be a bit "livelier", especially on throttle.

As for ride height, I forget exacly where mine is, but I'm sure I've posted it in here and/or on my build thread. But it's whatever the standard suggested ride height was in this thread. I would have to search, but it's in this thread.

Edit: did some searching, looks like I'm at 14" front and 13.5" in the rear. I get some rubbing in the front, but nothing major unless there's a big bump while the steering is turned hard...then the fender liner just gets ripped out.

Last edited by piknockout; 10-15-2013 at 02:13 PM.
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