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Old 09-07-2013, 07:50 PM   #51
hkerekes
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Originally Posted by lil'redwagon View Post
how many Boss 302 Mustangs do you see at the track? if I were getting one of these for a track car, I would get whatever was the cheapest V8, and build it into a track car myself.
The last track day i went to at VIR there were 5 Boss 302 and 1 ZL1. The camaro driver was a first time novice and was really slow. 4100 lbs without a driver and instructor is alot of weight.

44k for a boss is great bang for the buck. 60k not so much. Carbon brakes are nice but IMO kinda unnecessary.
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Old 09-07-2013, 08:11 PM   #52
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whoa, really?!? back when i did track days, i rarely saw nice cars. occasionally, there would be a nice car with a novice driver, but i don't count them. and i agree with you about what you say about the downsides of the Z28/ZL1, but to me, all those criticisms apply to the Boss as well. in my book, there are few cars that outdo used, built, C5 corvettes, miatas, or older M3's/3 series for track use. $44K, 60K, it's all way above what you'd spend on a C5 Z06, and you'd be using up all the same parts on the track anyway.

well, my point was about the "It sux because when you track it..." argument against these cars, and then saying a Boss is way better. there are a few things i can say about your example. ie, the ZL1 is meant to compete with the Shelby GT500, so how many of those do you see at track days? and if you see Boss's, maybe that's why Chevy is trying to compete with it! regardless, I stand corrected. and you've also just made an argument for why this car exists!
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Old 09-07-2013, 09:24 PM   #53
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whoa, really?!? back when i did track days, i rarely saw nice cars. occasionally, there would be a nice car with a novice driver, but i don't count them. and i agree with you about what you say about the downsides of the Z28/ZL1, but to me, all those criticisms apply to the Boss as well. in my book, there are few cars that outdo used, built, C5 corvettes, miatas, or older M3's/3 series for track use. $44K, 60K, it's all way above what you'd spend on a C5 Z06, and you'd be using up all the same parts on the track anyway.

well, my point was about the "It sux because when you track it..." argument against these cars, and then saying a Boss is way better. there are a few things i can say about your example. ie, the ZL1 is meant to compete with the Shelby GT500, so how many of those do you see at track days? and if you see Boss's, maybe that's why Chevy is trying to compete with it! regardless, I stand corrected. and you've also just made an argument for why this car exists!
The BOSS and ZL1 were the cheaper cars there. Vipers,Ferrari, Porsche, Nationwide series, older daytona prototype, c6 z06, GT500 ,etc were all over the place.

Im not saying the boss is way better than anything. I wanted a trackable car that was fast and capable stock and also had some sort of a back seat. It fit the bill for much less than a comparable M3, ZL1, shelby, Porsche, or whatever.

I have nothing against the ZL1 or Z28 i think they are fantastic cars that spur competition between the car makers but they have some downsides when you run them on the track. They are large cars and 4100 lbs is heavy, I think my 3500 lb car is already heavy and physically big.

$60k for the Z28 is a tough sell. A c7 corvette, Cayman, Lotus, M3, etc are all around that price range. The GT500 IMO isnt really marketed towards the track, its a straight line monster.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:43 PM   #54
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The BOSS and ZL1 were the cheaper cars there. Vipers,Ferrari, Porsche, Nationwide series, older daytona prototype, c6 z06, GT500 ,etc were all over the place.

Im not saying the boss is way better than anything. I wanted a trackable car that was fast and capable stock and also had some sort of a back seat. It fit the bill for much less than a comparable M3, ZL1, shelby, Porsche, or whatever.

I have nothing against the ZL1 or Z28 i think they are fantastic cars that spur competition between the car makers but they have some downsides when you run them on the track. They are large cars and 4100 lbs is heavy, I think my 3500 lb car is already heavy and physically big.

$60k for the Z28 is a tough sell. A c7 corvette, Cayman, Lotus, M3, etc are all around that price range. The GT500 IMO isnt really marketed towards the track, its a straight line monster.

I agree with almost everything you say. The only thing that I disagree with seems to be a common theme that many in this thread seem to be potentially getting wrong.
Now this is just pure speculation at this point but if you watch the second video he does say, if my memory serves me right, that the Z28 will be substantially lighter than a regular camaro maybe putting it into near the 3500lb range which for todays modern cars really isn't that heavy. even the new M3 ways close to that I believe. That's kind of the point I've been trying to make all along. I guess we will see when the production specs are actually released but I still think it's promising. I can't wait to see the performance figures!! And with a very proven engine like the Ls7 this thing should be a blast to drive. We will see though.
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:54 PM   #55
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I saw the Z28 at the JacobJavits car show and loved it but thought I heard the production model was not gonna be anything like the show car?? maybe you should have waited for final details before putting down a deposit? Any idea if it will come with free on track training like a ZR1?
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Old 09-07-2013, 11:56 PM   #56
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Z28 tail lights look a lot like honda prelude tails
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Old 09-08-2013, 12:05 AM   #57
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In the first video the chief engineer said 100 pounds lighter than the SS V8. It has no air conditioning which probably accounts for half of that 100 pounds. 100 pounds from 3850 is a joke.

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Old 09-08-2013, 09:09 AM   #58
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Few things to note. . .

- it's unfortunate that the Camaro SS has such bad opinions. But the 1LE SS is supposedly incredible to drive. The way it handles/drives is so tight and nice that it makes it feel like a smaller/lighter car. (which is what happens w/ many cars like the 3700+lb S4, or BMW 5 series) I've read where guys compare the handling of the 1LE to a C5 Z06. Yes, it's that good. Oh, and it's available with Recaros.

- The Z28 is going to be closer to $70k MSRP. The production model is going to be very much like the white one. It's going to be an absolute animal. Curb weight is expected to be 3700-3800.

- No Nurburgring times have been posted, but I expect it in the 7:20s.

Yeah, everyone is going to scoff at that, but does everyone not remember when the the fat, overweight GTR "defied physics" with ~480hp and beat everything else that had over 500hp? The Z28 is going to do similar feats.

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Old 09-08-2013, 10:03 AM   #59
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Few things to note. . .

- it's unfortunate that the Camaro SS has such bad opinions. But the 1LE SS is supposedly incredible to drive. The way it handles/drives is so tight and nice that it makes it feel like a smaller/lighter car. (which is what happens w/ many cars like the 3700+lb S4, or BMW 5 series) I've read where guys compare the handling of the 1LE to a C5 Z06. Yes, it's that good. Oh, and it's available with Recaros.

- The Z28 is going to be closer to $70k MSRP. The production model is going to be very much like the white one. It's going to be an absolute animal. Curb weight is expected to be 3700-3800.

- No Nurburgring times have been posted, but I expect it in the 7:20s.

Yeah, everyone is going to scoff at that, but does everyone not remember when the the fat, overweight GTR "defied physics" with ~480hp and beat everything else that had over 500hp? The Z28 is going to do similar feats.

Mike
I have a lot of respect for Chevys performance vehicles, there are tons of innovation in the current versions of the Camaro. It's a shame they have gotten so big and heavy though. Todays suspension geometry and components can make a larger car feel and act like a much smaller vehicle but the weight is still there.

Hopefully Ford can follow through with the weight loss of the Mustang and encourage Chevy to do the same. The GTR has AWD, turbos, beefy components that make it weigh a bit more than a simple RWD NA vehicle. The Camaro/Mustangs dont really have an excuse.
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Old 09-08-2013, 05:38 PM   #60
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:09 AM   #61
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Old 10-15-2013, 10:56 AM   #62
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damn that guy was pushing pretty hard. and it rains halfway through the lap!
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Old 10-15-2013, 12:17 PM   #63
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Damned impressive.
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Old 10-15-2013, 01:10 PM   #64
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http://www.gmhightechperformance.com...urgring_times/

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When GM test driver Aaron Link went 7:41.27 at the Nürburgring in the 2012 Camaro ZL1 back in 2011, it was hard to imagine another production Camaro would be able to exceed that already impressive time. The BMW M3, several Porsche 911 models, C5 Z06, 2009 Cadillac CTS-V, and even the 2006 Corvette Z06 all sit unhappily behind the ZL1 on the hierarchy of elapsed times for the famous 12.9-mile Nordschleife course. But then came the ZL1’s track-born cousin, the 2014 Camaro Z/28: carbon-ceramic brake rotors, 19-inch lightweight forged wheels, R-compound Pirelli tires, a 500-horsepower LS7, helical gear limited slip differential, and suspension enhancements that include adjustable shocks.

With in-house testing and development long since completed, GM headed back to the Nürburgring with the Z/28, thought to be ultimate proving grounds for handling, and the benchmark to which all supercars are compared. This consensus has been achieved because the ‘ring is such a lengthy track with a large variety of turns.

"One of the challenges of testing at the 'Ring is that the track is so long that conditions can change radically in a single lap," said Al Oppenheiser, Camaro chief engineer. "Adam Dean, the development driver for Z/28, did a heroic job driving in deteriorating conditions. Based on telemetry data from our test sessions, we know the Z/28 can be as much as six seconds faster on a dry track."

After 10 hours and 1,000 miles of testing at Nordschleife, the fastest lap completed was a blazing 7:37.40 with a top speed of 161mph. In the rain. Yes, in the rain. That’s faster than the Porsche 911 Carrera S, Lamborghini Murcielago LP640 and Ford GT, and on pace with some of the world’s quickest supercars. Each lap was said to take less than eight minutes, despite having to pass slower traffic (not a closed course like during internal testing and at VIR), and part of a 24-hour endurance test that simulates a year’s worth of track use.

“Passing the 24-Hour Test is a requirement for all cars we call 'track capable,’” said Wayne McConnell, director of global vehicle performance. "The test pushes the car at 10/10ths on the track for a total of 24 hours. During the test the only mechanical changes allowed are replacing the brakes and tires.”

This 24-Hour Test is conducted in segments over the course of several days and over different tracks. Performance is monitored, and in order to be counted towards the 24-hour total, each test lap must be within 2-percent of a target lap speed. This test was fist used in the early 1990s on the C4 Corvette, measuring only 15 channels of data. Today Chevrolet is measuring 130 channels on the Camaro Z/28.

“Our cars' performance and capability have advanced tremendously in the past 20 years, which required us to continually improve the parameters of the 24-Hour Test," said McConnell. "Today’s test pushes the car harder than the vast majority of customers ever will. As a result, when we call a car ‘track capable’ we are confident that it will perform reliably and consistently for our customers.”
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Old 10-15-2013, 03:21 PM   #65
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R compounds and carbon ceramic brakes, I'd hope it's fast. It's essentially a street legal race car.
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Old 10-15-2013, 04:02 PM   #66
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R compounds and carbon ceramic brakes, I'd hope it's fast. It's essentially a street legal race car.

Every car in this category would meet that same description.
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Old 10-15-2013, 04:47 PM   #67
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R compounds and carbon ceramic brakes, I'd hope it's fast. It's essentially a street legal race car.

That's what I don't understand about this car. They already make the Corvette; why build this car to step all over the Corvette's feet, in both performance & price?
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:13 PM   #68
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That's what I don't understand about this car. They already make the Corvette; why build this car to step all over the Corvette's feet, in both performance & price?
I don't know, but for $60k, I'd rather have the oontzy base C7, whatever it's called. If it tickles $70k, you're getting dangerously close to Z06 territory.
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:19 PM   #69
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That's what I don't understand about this car. They already make the Corvette; why build this car to step all over the Corvette's feet, in both performance & price?
Because the new Z06 will be in a much higher performance realm. Keep in mind this car is a limited production run as well. I doubt they'll make them for much more than a year or 2. What a time though!! I bet they could have shaved of an extra second or maybe a bit more if the track was dry too.Those tires are known for being pretty useless in the rain! Not trying to start a fight here but I'd wager that this new Z28 will beat anything Ford has to offer on the track. Now I can't wait to see the 2015 mustang times.
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:21 PM   #70
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Because the new Z06 will be in a much higher performance realm. Keep in mind this car is a limited production run as well. I doubt they'll make them for much more than a year or 2. What a time though!! I bet they could have shaved of an extra second or maybe a bit more if the track was dry too.Those tires are known for being pretty useless in the rain! Not trying to start a fight here but I'd wager that this new Z28 will beat anything Ford has to offer on the track. Now I can't wait to see the 2015 mustang times.
Ford is most likely not gonna offer a competitor to this... They'll offer something like the boss again that will get a time like 7:50 and only cost 40k :P
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:40 PM   #71
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And they can make and sell for a profit.

I will take the boss all day long.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:05 PM   #72
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Ford is most likely not gonna offer a competitor to this... They'll offer something like the boss again that will get a time like 7:50 and only cost 40k :P
I totally agree with this But the new Mustang platform, although I've never been a mustang fan, does look promising! I could care less how much money the manufacturer takes home though. At the end of the day all I care about is the quality of the final product and whether or not it performs.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:25 PM   #73
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I totally agree with this But the new Mustang platform, although I've never been a mustang fan, does look promising! I could care less how much money the manufacturer takes home though. At the end of the day all I care about is the quality of the final product and whether or not it performs.
That would mean no more cars like this from GM. And at the end of the day, they still get it about 1/2 right. In any case, this car should be a good indicator of what a future Z06/Z07 will be capable of.
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Old 10-16-2013, 12:19 AM   #74
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In any case, this car should be a good indicator of what a future Z06/Z07 will be capable of.
Errr... what?
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Old 10-16-2013, 02:55 AM   #75
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^^^ There's no way GM will let that Z/28's lap time stay above their halo car for long. The Corvette Z06/Z07 successor will have to step up it's game considering that Camaro's performance despite the size, weight, and aero disadvantage.
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