Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Friday August 22, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Factory 2.5L Turbo Powertrain

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-09-2013, 01:37 PM   #251
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by danger1138 View Post
^^ Very well said, point taken.

There are many others though that have gone stage II & followed the guidelines & have had success, they are still on the road thousands of miles later. My point is, like mentioned many times, do not run a 30w on a turbo-charged suby, Period.
Yeah, the strength is there to handle the power. Even Crawford Performance acknowledges that the stock engine setup is strong enough to handle plenty of power. It's the stock tuning that's unfortunate, they a running the cars with less and less fuel to meet emissions and fuel economy standards but at the expense of shrinking the safety thresholds for knock.

http://www.importtuner.com/tech/impp...h/viewall.html

Subaru des specify that high temperature and heavy duty driving conditions requires thicker oil in the manual and then they do define what heavy duty driving conditions are. What they don't do is acknowledge that anyone buying a WRX is going to be driving the car hard enough to just need thicker oil period.....As we've all pointed out before. Subaru could simply recommend thicker oil EXCEPT in "light driving conditions" and ship the cars with thicker oil from the factory and stamp the oil cap with "10w-40" instead. But then the EPA fuel economy estimates would fall again...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackfin View Post
My confidence in Subaru was shaken when I found out they used (and continue to use) hypereutectic cast pistons in a 300HP 2.5L turbo engine.

No offense to Subaru but even Ford, when they did their "Terminator" 03/04 Cobra engine went to forged pistons and Manley H-beams despite every previous normally aspirated 4V Cobra engine using powdered metal rods and hypereutectic pistons. This is on an engine running 8-psi boost from a Roots style blower and making "only" 84.8HP/L. Subaru saddles the turbo 2.5 EJ257 with cast pistons despite it running more boost and making 122HP/L.

Ford deemed it too risky to use downlevel parts on a blower motor. Subaru's judgement should be questioned here. I suspect the reason for the cast pistons was that they can run tighter clearances and thus are quieter and have less crevice volume for emissions reasons.

Wish I was a fly on the wall at Fuji Heavy Industries when the choice was made to go cast: "To hell with all of this WRC heritage, soccer moms demand quiet engines!"
The pistons are probably more of a cost/benefit decision from on high. Despite all the failures, its probably still cheaper for them to keep the same ol pistons in there. They also seal better, especially in cold start conditions further contributing to the emissions ratings vs. going Forged.

To the Ford comment, superchargers are much harder on engines per PSI because the engine mechanically drives the compressor. Even though the final output of the engine is 84 hp/L, the supercharger is probably taking a good 50-75hp to run so the stresses on the engine closer to 130-150 hp/L. That's also on a very special edition version of the Mustang with a much higher price point so using Forged components is a selling point and a marketing ploy even though it's a really good one.

I think you'd be better off comparing Subaru's engine strategy with the Ford Focus ST which runs 21 PSI of boost stock on a 2.0L engine using standard cast pistons. Even with direct injection and 6 more lbs of boost than a stock STI it only makes 270 hp at the crank. It's still a new car so we aren't seeing many failures but I'm sure we'll hear of them eventually. Perhaps not as many for several reasons but I'm sure there's a weak point there too.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
BrandonDrums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2013, 02:19 PM   #252
Blackfin
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 361325
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Ontario
Vehicle:
2010 STi
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonDrums View Post
The pistons are probably more of a cost/benefit decision from on high. Despite all the failures, its probably still cheaper for them to keep the same ol pistons in there. They also seal better, especially in cold start conditions further contributing to the emissions ratings vs. going Forged.
Yup. Reminds me a little of 1970s Ford beancounters nixing a plastic shield that would protect the fuel tank in Pintos despite it costing a couple of bucks "per unit" because, they reasoned, the cost of lawsuits would come in cheaper than the cost of properly equipping the cars in the first place.

Not quite life or death with the EJ but you can catch the fetid smell of the beancounters' breath here too...

Quote:
I think you'd be better off comparing Subaru's engine strategy with the Ford Focus ST which runs 21 PSI of boost stock on a 2.0L engine using standard cast pistons. Even with direct injection and 6 more lbs of boost than a stock STI it only makes 270 hp at the crank. It's still a new car so we aren't seeing many failures but I'm sure we'll hear of them eventually. Perhaps not as many for several reasons but I'm sure there's a weak point there too.
If the Scoob were direct-injected we'd probably have much more headroom in terms of detonation. DI acts more effectively to cool the charge than port injection does and that probably saves them. Mazda can get away with compression ratios in the teens -- 13:1 and 14:1 -- on their "Skyactiv" gas engines in large part because of DI.

But yeah, it certainly seems more and more manufacturers are sticking with cast pistons and relying on tricks like DI, knock detection and tunes to make up for it. Too bad Sube's stock tune is so bad.
Blackfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2013, 03:25 PM   #253
atomicfire
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 136296
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Midtown, Houston, TX
Vehicle:
2005 STi
OBP

Default

There's nothing wrong with running a 30w oil in a turbo Subaru - keep in mind that even though there's a specification that mandates oil viscosity, this doesn't guarantee that a 5w-30 from one company is going to be the same viscosity as a 5w-30 from another company - let alone a different additive pack.

A stock Subaru motor running stock oil clearances with stock oiling requirements will run great with some oils and not so well on other oils.

My 2005 STi has been running Castrol 0w-30 for over 40k miles and even though it's not a daily any more - I beat the piss out of the car when I do drive it.

By beating the piss out of the car - this is what I do when I drive it:
1. Regular bouts with the rev limiter
2. Lots of third and fourth gear WOT runs
3. Lots of WOT AWD launches spinning all four
4. Lots and lots of engine braking and rev matching

All this - of course after it has come up to running temp.

Just as I said earlier that not all 5w-30 oils have exactly the same viscosity - not all oils handle Subaru engines well. Mobil 1 5w-30 is a great oil - lots of other people use it and the detergent pack is excellent. However, our Subaru engines quickly sheer the viscosity down to a point where it can likely cause a spun rod bearing.

Castrol 0w-30 however - tests at a higher viscosity than Mobil 1 5w-30 both cold and hot and is a group IV based oil. It handles the abuse of my stock engine well and I run between 5000 to 8000 miles oil changes. Blackstone labs analyzes the used oil and says there's zero problem running it to 8000 miles.

Shell Rotella T6 5w-40, Mobil 1 0w-40, and Subaru 5w-30 are also other great oils to use in our engines.

If you have a rebuilt motor - you need to talk to your engine builder to determine what oil to use in the engine. Different engines with different tolerances and bearing clearances will have different oil requirements. Just because Castrol 0w-30 worked for my stock motor doesn't mean it will work well for a loose forged engine.
atomicfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2013, 04:21 PM   #254
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicfire View Post
There's nothing wrong with running a 30w oil in a turbo Subaru - keep in mind that even though there's a specification that mandates oil viscosity, this doesn't guarantee that a 5w-30 from one company is going to be the same viscosity as a 5w-30 from another company - let alone a different additive pack.

A stock Subaru motor running stock oil clearances with stock oiling requirements will run great with some oils and not so well on other oils.

My 2005 STi has been running Castrol 0w-30 for over 40k miles and even though it's not a daily any more - I beat the piss out of the car when I do drive it.

By beating the piss out of the car - this is what I do when I drive it:
1. Regular bouts with the rev limiter
2. Lots of third and fourth gear WOT runs
3. Lots of WOT AWD launches spinning all four
4. Lots and lots of engine braking and rev matching

All this - of course after it has come up to running temp.

Just as I said earlier that not all 5w-30 oils have exactly the same viscosity - not all oils handle Subaru engines well. Mobil 1 5w-30 is a great oil - lots of other people use it and the detergent pack is excellent. However, our Subaru engines quickly sheer the viscosity down to a point where it can likely cause a spun rod bearing.

Castrol 0w-30 however - tests at a higher viscosity than Mobil 1 5w-30 both cold and hot and is a group IV based oil. It handles the abuse of my stock engine well and I run between 5000 to 8000 miles oil changes. Blackstone labs analyzes the used oil and says there's zero problem running it to 8000 miles.

Shell Rotella T6 5w-40, Mobil 1 0w-40, and Subaru 5w-30 are also other great oils to use in our engines.

If you have a rebuilt motor - you need to talk to your engine builder to determine what oil to use in the engine. Different engines with different tolerances and bearing clearances will have different oil requirements. Just because Castrol 0w-30 worked for my stock motor doesn't mean it will work well for a loose forged engine.
Yup, good post. The dual-weight viscosity measurement scales are quite primitive actually. Not only are the values for each viscosity measured only at a single temperature but the temperature used to rate the viscosity changes for each weight. See the chart below to see what I'm saying. Basically, you can have a 0W oil that's thicker than a 15w oil at freezing because the 0W oil is graded at -30C while the 15w oil is graded at -30C. I don't like this but it's how the scale was developed oh so long ago. I didn't understand it until recently myself when I learned that I could run 0W-30 in my outback and that it was a better oil all around than the 5W-30 I was running at the time.

But a good rule of thumb as a whole still is - use thicker rated oil in your Subaru unless you've done all the research to know how the oil holds up. Since that's such a friggin' cluster to even start to understand, just use thicker oil and perhaps start to read about oil in articles like the one below. Which, by the way, tells us a good bit on why Mobile 1 which used to be really good oil is the terrible stuff we think it is in our turbo cars. Apparently there's a legal loophole to call a non-synthetic oil "Synthetic" due to some EPA regulation on sulphur reduced oils. Just read it.

*edit, now I'm reading more about oil.

For a multi-grade synthetic, just make sure you're buying a Group IV synthetic and not a Group III. Group 3 is the crap that breaks down because it's loaded with viscosity improving additives. Group 4 synthetics are true synthetics with no viscosity improving additives and resist sheering like a straight weight oil. In addition, because they don't have any VI additives which increase sheering and break-down issues, they can actually be treated with more durability and performance additives instead. What a great article this is.

http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/


Last edited by BrandonDrums; 10-09-2013 at 04:29 PM.
BrandonDrums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2013, 04:54 PM   #255
atomicfire
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 136296
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Midtown, Houston, TX
Vehicle:
2005 STi
OBP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonDrums View Post
For a multi-grade synthetic, just make sure you're buying a Group IV synthetic and not a Group III. Group 3 is the crap that breaks down because it's loaded with viscosity improving additives. Group 4 synthetics are true synthetics with no viscosity improving additives and resist sheering like a straight weight oil. In addition, because they don't have any VI additives which increase sheering and break-down issues, they can actually be treated with more durability and performance additives instead. What a great article this is.

http://www.upmpg.com/tech_articles/motoroil_viscosity/

Good info - though there are a few good Group III oils - Shell Rotella T6 is a Group III. I believe the Subaru 5w-30 is a Group III as well.

German Castrol 0w-30 is a Group IV and Mobil 1 0w-40 is a Group V oil.
atomicfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2013, 04:59 PM   #256
Blackfin
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 361325
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Ontario
Vehicle:
2010 STi
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

Really thinking that for the summer months around here I'd want to run a straight 30W or 40W and forget about the compromise offered by multigrade, dropping back to a 5W30 or 5W40 for the cooler winter months when I'm not as likely to beat it to the point of oil shearing etc...
Blackfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2013, 05:05 PM   #257
atomicfire
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 136296
Join Date: Dec 2006
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: Midtown, Houston, TX
Vehicle:
2005 STi
OBP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackfin View Post
Really thinking that for the summer months around here I'd want to run a straight 30W or 40W and forget about the compromise offered by multigrade, dropping back to a 5W30 or 5W40 for the cooler winter months when I'm not as likely to beat it to the point of oil shearing etc...
Ambient air temperature doesn't have as big of an effect on oil viscosity as you would imagine. Once the engine warms up (you warm up the engine before beating on it, right? RIGHT?) your oil temps will hover around the 220F mark anyway, whether in summer or winter.

Yes in extremes the oil temp will be higher or lower, such as when road racing, or if you have a large oil cooler, or if it's -50F outside but we're talking for the vast majority of people in a relatively temperate climate a modern multi-grade oil will do fine.
atomicfire is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2013, 07:18 PM   #258
SlimJim8804
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 241943
Join Date: Mar 2010
Location: NNJ
Vehicle:
2065 Magic Carpet
Swirl Rally Bleu

Default

How do you define warm up regarding oil temperature. Do you have an oil temp gauge? If so what temp do you wait to see before driving hard? My assumption is 176+ or with an oil pressure gauge, when pressure reaches normal pressure levels. For the vast majority of us without oil temp gauges, what's a rule of thumb when it's safe to drive hard? A few minutes after coolant is up to temp?
SlimJim8804 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2013, 08:53 PM   #259
Blackfin
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 361325
Join Date: Jul 2013
Chapter/Region: E. Canada
Location: Ontario
Vehicle:
2010 STi
Dark Gray Metallic

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicfire View Post
Ambient air temperature doesn't have as big of an effect on oil viscosity as you would imagine. Once the engine warms up (you warm up the engine before beating on it, right? RIGHT?) your oil temps will hover around the 220F mark anyway, whether in summer or winter.
In the dead of winter here morning temperatures may fall to -20 or -25oC. My interest is not so much what the engine oil is doing when its temperature is 220oF as it is in how easily it flows when it's first started, when the oil is like molasses in the sump and reluctant to flow through frigid galleys.

I recall 30 years ago, as a kid, I worked as a pump jockey at a full-serve gas station. I remember January night shifts where we were asked by drivers to check oil on their Miradas and Chevettes and, as was common in those days due to leaks, cars needing a litre to top up. I remember cans of 10W30 and 10W40, having been sitting outside beside the pumps all night, being like pouring cold maple syrup. I always think of that when I crank any car on those super cold days.

So yeah, I wait until the temperature gauge has peaked -- and usually longer -- before I get on it.

In the summer the oil is already at 20 or 30oC when the engine is started "cold" and readily flows so cold weather "5W" ratings aren't as important to me in July and August.

Quote:
Yes in extremes the oil temp will be higher or lower, such as when road racing, or if you have a large oil cooler, or if it's -50F outside but we're talking for the vast majority of people in a relatively temperate climate a modern multi-grade oil will do fine.
Indeed. Subaru recommends 5W30 straight from -40 to +40oC. IMO this is a "Jack of all trades, master of none" scenario where the oil is sufficient for lazy schmoes (like me sometimes... ) and soccer moms for whom maintenance and performance are four-letter words, but not particularly good at either extreme.

Given some apparent weaknesses that might be lurking in this engine I'm going to look into narrowing the window a bit: A 0W30 or 5W20 might be the best option below -15oC and a 30W or 40W straight over +20oC...
Blackfin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-09-2013, 10:30 PM   #260
mikemchuge52
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 370461
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: Michigan
Vehicle:
2009 WRX
Silver

Default

Brandon, your 2 cents are very much appreciated. I will reach out to Maxwell in the near future. Dennis, thx for the oil info - I will be much more discerning going forward.
mikemchuge52 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-10-2013, 10:18 AM   #261
bluesubie
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 767
Join Date: Jan 2000
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: N.J.
Vehicle:
04 FXT

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by atomicfire View Post
Good info - though there are a few good Group III oils - Shell Rotella T6 is a Group III. I believe the Subaru 5w-30 is a Group III as well. German Castrol 0w-30 is a Group IV and Mobil 1 0w-40 is a Group V oil.
M1 0W-40 may have been Group V several years ago, but there are internal docs on-line showing that it is a Group III, called Visom. Regardless, it likely contains 2 or three different base oils/additive carriers like PAO's and Group V Alkylated Naphthalenes. Most oils these days are a blend of different base stocks (eg Red Line is Group V and IV).

The performance gap between the different base stocks is narrowing, with Shell's GTL base stock used in Ultra surpassing PAO's in some important areas (like volatility which is evaporation).

Yep, RT6 is certainly a good example of a good Group III oil.

-Dennis
bluesubie is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-14-2013, 04:42 PM   #262
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Good to know. It's because of this thread that I even know half the stuff I know now and I'm still learning.

Just an update with my car (since I started the thread after failure #2) I've been up and running for about 5 months now.

I was cash strapped a year ago and found a deal that truly was too good to be true on a used EJ257. I swapped it in and found it to have a failed rod bearing too. It actually might not have been a failed bearing after all but there certainly was junk in the oil pan as I pointed out in earlier posts.

Regardless, I ended up working with a great local machine shop and had my original EJ257 rebuilt to all of the specs and with all of the tips from Maxwell Power. I would have sent it straight to them but they are clear across the country for me.

They did a fantastic job, I have zero issues with the build but I'm still breaking it in with only about 1,500 miles on the engine. The shop is fantastic though, they stand behind their work and have a fantastic reputation although they aren't a subaru specific shop.

I've learned so much from all of you guys, thanks so much for everything. I feel much more confident with my tune and with my build than I ever did before because I know what to look for and had the feedback from some of the most knowledgeable folks in the industry posting along right here.

In the unlikely event that I have another failure I won't care as much honestly. I know what to do to correct the issue but more importantly, I know now how to prevent it (or at least I have more info thanks to you guys).

Keep the stories and feedback coming guys.
BrandonDrums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 02:41 PM   #263
jnorth85
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 76785
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: DSM iowa
Vehicle:
2000 580Whp The RSTI
SRP

Default

hello all!
I have been suffering from Rod bearing failures.
here are some photos of my build from the start.

mains set at .0015 rods .0014 -.0015
cross drilled 2.5 crank King XPG bearings
11mm STI pump no shims
7500 RPM redline














After 1500 miles we were out doing some road tuning and I did a quick 2-3-4 pull and noticed a rattle at the end of the pull. upon tear down I found that #4 rod bearing had spun.

Build #2

stock 2.5 crank, King XPG bearings mains .0017 rods .002
10MM pump 2 shims
7500 RPM redline

after about 1500 miles I was merging into traffic 160* oil temp
I came to a stop and saw very low oil pressure and heard the famous rod knock.

after the first failure I attributed it to, too low of bearing tolerance or lack of oil pressure, so the 2nd time around I went with the 10mm pump and shimmed it. I also increased the rod bearing tolerance.

Ive done a countless amount of pulls and 3 drag events on build #2 with no issues, after the quick pull I now have issues.

I have yet to tear down the motor to see where the failures are this time.

Im looking for insight on what may have happened and what I can do next time to prevent the same failure.
jnorth85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 03:02 PM   #264
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Yikes! A little more detail might help. What components are you reusing and which ones are you replacing between builds? Are you re-using the oil pickup tube, oil pan oil cooler etc? What oil do you run etc.?
BrandonDrums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 04:03 PM   #265
jnorth85
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 76785
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: DSM iowa
Vehicle:
2000 580Whp The RSTI
SRP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonDrums View Post
Yikes! A little more detail might help. What components are you reusing and which ones are you replacing between builds? Are you re-using the oil pickup tube, oil pan oil cooler etc? What oil do you run etc.?
First build all components were new.
2nd build I replaced the oil cooler, oil pump, crank, block (first had some scoring )
The first build was still on break in oil rotella T 15w50
The pan, pickup and baffle were hot tanked.
Heads were cleaned but not disabled and cleaned. No metallic residue could be seen on the heads. There was no scoring on the cam journal's.

2nd build was on motul 300v 5w40

Last edited by jnorth85; 10-15-2013 at 04:53 PM.
jnorth85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 04:50 PM   #266
Bansheeboy11
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 182415
Join Date: Jun 2008
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: New York
Vehicle:
1999 RS
Aspen White

Default

Was the 2nd crank cross drilled too? Also for build 2, the only thing i can think of that would cause pressure loss is a leak, or a pump failure. Right?
Bansheeboy11 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-15-2013, 04:52 PM   #267
jnorth85
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 76785
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: DSM iowa
Vehicle:
2000 580Whp The RSTI
SRP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bansheeboy11 View Post
Was the 2nd crank cross drilled too? Also for build 2, the only thing i can think of that would cause pressure loss is a leak, or a pump failure. Right?
just a standard crank not cross drilled.
that was my thoughts as well, but I hadnt seen any pressure fluctuations during all the other hard driving I had been doing.

Killer B pick up, Killer B baffle, stock Pan.
85-90 Psi at redline with the 2 shims
oil was full and freshly changed.
jnorth85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 03:14 PM   #268
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonDrums View Post
In any case, you can reduce the max WGDC thusly reducing the boost depending on vehicle speed and I think you can increase some fueling additive by vehicle speed too.

I'm going to go home and check the tables and see what you can do. Could be that reducing boost over 100mph and adding a tad bit of fuel could counter the issues Max brings up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maxwell Power View Post
you can't do that. I don't know what tables you're talking about, but USDM wrx's do not have tables like that.
Just wanted to follow up on this. In the 16 bit ECU's at least (i've confirmed for 02-05 USDM WRX ECUS), there IS a control to limit wastegate duty cycle dependent on vehicle speed. Here's how I have mine configured below, it works great. I got to really test it out last night for the first time to confirm how it reacts.

I can run my max WGDC using Hybrid boost control aggressive enough that at WOT I hit 19 psi in 1st-3rd (3rd has partial reduction and still hits target without spikes), once in 4th (3rd hits 80mph at about 6500 rpm on the 5mt) boost is reduced to 14psi. My partial throttle Max WGDC's are set low enough that I don't have too much of an issue of excessive boost when cruising either. The butt dyno can't tell the difference at all but needless to say it's a lot safer.

Unfortnately, I've looked at ROM's for the 32 bit ECU's and none seem to have this parameter. Only USDM 02-05 WRX models seem to have this. It's a fantastic feature though. However, from the factory it's practically disabled as they have the boost limits kicking in at speeds higher than the fuel cut limits. There's also no control over what the % decrease actually is and I won't be able to tell without logging my WGDC which I haven't done yet. All I know is that I lucked out and partial reduction seems to be perfect for my 3rd gear to still make target without spikes on my 18G-xt turbo.

My settings on my 05wrx ecu.
BrandonDrums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 03:25 PM   #269
BrandonDrums
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 118630
Join Date: Jun 2006
Chapter/Region: South East
Vehicle:
2005 Wrx wagon
Red

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorth85 View Post
just a standard crank not cross drilled.
that was my thoughts as well, but I hadnt seen any pressure fluctuations during all the other hard driving I had been doing.

Killer B pick up, Killer B baffle, stock Pan.
85-90 Psi at redline with the 2 shims
oil was full and freshly changed.
Sounds like there's something else going on. You might not have any oiling issues at all actually but there could be some knock high in the ROM range that your ECU isn't picking up or correcting that wiped the bearings. You can wipe a bearing without spinning it and only after the small amount of debris makes it back through the system will you finally spin the bearing.

What does your knock correction range table and timing tables look like? As Maxwell Power pointed out earlier in the thread, sometimes people decrease the knock control ranges without knowing it or don't properly increase them for higher than stock Rev Limits. If your knock correction is disabled before your 7,500 redline and you don't have a knock indicator installed, you might not know if you're knocking at all since most people look at the knock correction values in the logs to detect if knock is present.

That's the only thing I can think of considering your mods unless the shimmed oil pump is causing cavitation or something like that.
BrandonDrums is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 03:58 PM   #270
jnorth85
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 76785
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: DSM iowa
Vehicle:
2000 580Whp The RSTI
SRP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonDrums View Post

Sounds like there's something else going on. You might not have any oiling issues at all actually but there could be some knock high in the ROM range that your ECU isn't picking up or correcting that wiped the bearings. You can wipe a bearing without spinning it and only after the small amount of debris makes it back through the system will you finally spin the bearing.

What does your knock correction range table and timing tables look like? As Maxwell Power pointed out earlier in the thread, sometimes people decrease the knock control ranges without knowing it or don't properly increase them for higher than stock Rev Limits. If your knock correction is disabled before your 7,500 redline and you don't have a knock indicator installed, you might not know if you're knocking at all since most people look at the knock correction values in the logs to detect if knock is present.

That's the only thing I can think of considering your mods unless the shimmed oil pump is causing cavitation or something like that.
That's definitely something worth researching, I am using E85 so the possibility of knock is very minimal but it is still possible.
jnorth85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 04:41 PM   #271
danger1138
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 279525
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: QUEENS NY
Vehicle:
04 rex luger!

Default

Im no expert but isnt that weight of oil you used both times for breaking in the motor too thick? I was told not to use anything heavier than a 30W oil when i broke in my rebuilt engine.. btw i used the 'drive it like u stole it' method on valvoline 10w-30 conventional oil.
danger1138 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 05:07 PM   #272
subi400
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 216984
Join Date: Jul 2009
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Hayden, ID
Vehicle:
1996 Impreza outback
Green

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by danger1138 View Post
Im no expert but isnt that weight of oil you used both times for breaking in the motor too thick? I was told not to use anything heavier than a 30W oil when i broke in my rebuilt engine.. btw i used the 'drive it like u stole it' method on valvoline 10w-30 conventional oil.
He used the motul 5w40 after break in I believe. Maxwell power uses a 10w40 to break in their motors, but their bearing clearances are at least 0.0016, up to around 0.002. On closer to stock bearing clearances a xw30 oil for break in would be ok.
subi400 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 05:19 PM   #273
jnorth85
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 76785
Join Date: Dec 2004
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: DSM iowa
Vehicle:
2000 580Whp The RSTI
SRP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by subi400 View Post

He used the motul 5w40 after break in I believe. Maxwell power uses a 10w40 to break in their motors, but their bearing clearances are at least 0.0016, up to around 0.002. On closer to stock bearing clearances a xw30 oil for break in would be ok.
Correct. I also used standard rotella T for break in which is a common break in oil.
jnorth85 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 05:31 PM   #274
Maxwell Power
Former Vendor
 
Member#: 190729
Join Date: Oct 2008
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Marysville, WA
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by BrandonDrums View Post
Just wanted to follow up on this. In the 16 bit ECU's at least (i've confirmed for 02-05 USDM WRX ECUS), there IS a control to limit wastegate duty cycle dependent on vehicle speed. Here's how I have mine configured below, it works great. I got to really test it out last night for the first time to confirm how it reacts.

I can run my max WGDC using Hybrid boost control aggressive enough that at WOT I hit 19 psi in 1st-3rd (3rd has partial reduction and still hits target without spikes), once in 4th (3rd hits 80mph at about 6500 rpm on the 5mt) boost is reduced to 14psi. My partial throttle Max WGDC's are set low enough that I don't have too much of an issue of excessive boost when cruising either. The butt dyno can't tell the difference at all but needless to say it's a lot safer.

Unfortnately, I've looked at ROM's for the 32 bit ECU's and none seem to have this parameter. Only USDM 02-05 WRX models seem to have this. It's a fantastic feature though. However, from the factory it's practically disabled as they have the boost limits kicking in at speeds higher than the fuel cut limits. There's also no control over what the % decrease actually is and I won't be able to tell without logging my WGDC which I haven't done yet. All I know is that I lucked out and partial reduction seems to be perfect for my 3rd gear to still make target without spikes on my 18G-xt turbo.

My settings on my 05wrx ecu.
very clever.
You're using the speed limiting feature to limit boost instead of limiting boost to limit speed as it was intended.

As you may know, the purpose of that map is to remove boost when you hit the top speed threshold. Since the ecu is going to be limiting timing at the limited speed, removing boost keeps you from creating extremely hot EGTs and melting pistons.
Maxwell Power is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-17-2013, 05:32 PM   #275
subi400
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 216984
Join Date: Jul 2009
Chapter/Region: NWIC
Location: Hayden, ID
Vehicle:
1996 Impreza outback
Green

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jnorth85 View Post
Correct. I also used standard rotella T for break in which is a common break in oil.
Did your wrx 10mm pump come with 2 shims from the factory, or did you add one?

Like a few others have said, it seems as if a knock event or a few are to blame, but further searching in the tuning department is needed to see if that is it.
subi400 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.