Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Thursday October 23, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
NASIOC
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Classifieds > New Product Development

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 10-22-2013, 11:21 AM   #501
enjoilife1991
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 322400
Join Date: Jun 2012
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Reno
Vehicle:
03 WRX 360whp
PSM

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
When we start on the GR setup, there shouldn't be a difference from the WRX to STi models across the years. As far as I know the engine compartments are the same
The intake manifolds are different so they will require different intercooler pipping.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
enjoilife1991 is offline  
Old 10-22-2013, 11:51 AM   #502
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

True, but since intercooler tubing can be had in universal DIY parts/pieces we hadn't even planned on including it with the kit, and you can make any configuration you like.
KillerBMotorsport is offline  
Old 10-22-2013, 11:52 AM   #503
Junior2JZ
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 64908
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Tuning 8/9sec Subies @ P&L
Vehicle:
10.8 XT+10.0@143 GR+
2x9.0@170mph GTRs

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by enjoilife1991 View Post
The intake manifolds are different so they will require different intercooler pipping.

Actually they are not.. Same intake manifold on both cars, slightly different mounting tabs for stuff like the EBC.
Junior2JZ is offline  
Old 10-22-2013, 11:59 AM   #504
Leafy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 330625
Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2006 WRX
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Junior2JZ View Post
Actually they are not.. Same intake manifold on both cars, slightly different mounting tabs for stuff like the EBC.
I think he means the wrx.
Leafy is offline  
Old 10-22-2013, 12:06 PM   #505
Junior2JZ
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 64908
Join Date: Jun 2004
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Tuning 8/9sec Subies @ P&L
Vehicle:
10.8 XT+10.0@143 GR+
2x9.0@170mph GTRs

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
I think he means the wrx.


Reading > Jrtuned lol

Sorry, carry on.. Nothing to see here


See ya shortly Mr. KillerB
Junior2JZ is offline  
Old 10-22-2013, 02:21 PM   #506
Superaison
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 257982
Join Date: Sep 2010
Chapter/Region: Tri-State
Location: Columbus, Ohio
Vehicle:
02 Impreza
Aspen White

Default

Is there any videos yet?
Superaison is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 06:54 AM   #507
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Made a stooped mistake and I don't want to talk about it Engine is out of the car to be disassembled soon

In the mean time, revising prints to reflect changes that took place during fabrication and laying out fixturing plans.

Some exhaust pics for your visual enjoyment...








Quote:
Originally Posted by Superaison View Post
Is there any videos yet?
Just this one for now with the single scroll setup.


From the limited testing we got with the twin scroll it provided a ~400RPM gain in spool, but comparing both mid sized housings the twin scrill will not provide as much ultimate power. Going to the larger twin scroll housing should come close to equaling the power of the mid sized single scroll housing, but it's going to take a couple hundred RPM hit in spool. So at that point I question of the twin scrolls ~200RPM gain in spool is worth the extra cost. Especially considering the single spools/performs better than a comparable OEM or rotated location setup already.

None of these results reflect the recent change to delete the cat, so those numbers should go up some because of that as well. Surprisingly the sound levels have not increased a noticeable amount in the cabin and it's still much quieter than our catted stage II+ 2012 STi

Intercooler design also changed some. It grew a wee bit in height and now has cast end tanks. Air filter is bigger. I'm also working on routing the oil drain scavenge pump into the PCV just for fun. Don't know why I never took advantage of the vacuum source sooner

Last edited by KillerBMotorsport; 11-20-2013 at 07:01 AM.
KillerBMotorsport is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 07:30 AM   #508
Leafy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 330625
Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2006 WRX
WRB

Default

I'm surprised that these was so little gain with the TS. Is it possible that Your lengths of primaries and secondaries are just making a bad set of pressure waves?
Leafy is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 07:36 AM   #509
bilt2run
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 134211
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: LONG ISLAND
Default

^^^The way I see it, this system isnt going to be for everyone anyhow and at that higher price point I would care less paying a few hundred more and knowing I got the most out of that setup..twin scroll FTW
bilt2run is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 07:55 AM   #510
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

What kinds of gains would you be expecting going TS? The turbo is definitely more responsive than single (which you don't see on a dyno plot) and spools better. TS isn't known for making more power than SS, just different power.

Drivability wise, it's noticeable. The single scroll would swing from vacuum to 0 and then build boost. The TS version swings to 7-10psi immediately and builds more boost. So for scooting through traffic and low RPM non-downshift acceleration, it's a noticeable advantage. If I were to speculate... If I had 2 exact cars in a drag race, the TS would likely pull some in the first 2 gears, but the larger power of the SS would win the race.

I can see how the weekend auto-x guys would prefer TS, but for road coarse guys I don't any significant advantage. We've also seen more than a few track dedicated cars go from TS to SS to save weight, complexity, less things to fail, leak, wear, replace, and they see no hit in their times.
KillerBMotorsport is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 08:28 AM   #511
Leafy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 330625
Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2006 WRX
WRB

Default

I was expecting the TS gains you got with the smaller housing you used with the larger housing that flowed the same as the SS. Basically same power, 400ish rpm sooner on the power and better transient response.
Leafy is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 08:43 AM   #512
manitou
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193757
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cedar, MI HP Techs MPS-SSLR2.5
Vehicle:
2006 XTI Limited
OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP

Default

The reason that there is not as much of a difference between the TS and SS low mount is because the design of Chris's header is so good and efficient it tends to negate the perceived advantages normally seen with the JDM TS type design. I could see a little bit of transient response benefit from the TS but probably not much and not worth the added cost and complexity.

After having owned a KBHH with both a VF and a larger 60ish lb/ min turbo as well as a few other headers, I can tell you his design is far superior in performance in every way!

I'll take a Tial vband housing in .85 AR on mine please! I'm ready to do some testing for you sir!
manitou is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 10:24 AM   #513
Layvon
NASIOC Supporter
 
Member#: 195711
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cadillac MI
Vehicle:
STi 04/05/06/07
JBP / OBP for now

Default

At the same time let's be honest with ourselves... Anyone that is auto crossing competitively is going to be using a smaller turbo anyways because of class reasons / spool up etc.

Jr & Paul made me realize this for my car too, I had a twin scroll 6262 and like they said, you don't use that power. It looks cool on paper to say i hit xx psi at 4,xxx RPM but in a drag or road course you're never there anyways. Having said all this, I'm going back with a 6266 vband and some secret goodies
Layvon is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 10:30 AM   #514
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

^ agreed. As a street driver my favorite setup that has been on the car so far is the 3071. Response was near instant and FLAT curve from 3,800-7,000RPMs
KillerBMotorsport is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 10:31 AM   #515
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Here's the plot...

KillerBMotorsport is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 10:36 AM   #516
Leafy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 330625
Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2006 WRX
WRB

Default

I still want the widest powerband I can get. The wider you can make the powerband the better. Its almost disappointing in this day an age when a turbo 4 car cant make over 300ftlbs for at least 4000 rpms.
Leafy is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 11:00 AM   #517
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

^ Take the above setup, swap in the mid-sized turbine housing and add E85. You'd have what you're looking for and well over 400whp to a higher redline. With E85 though it's kinda cheating though.
KillerBMotorsport is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 11:07 AM   #518
Leafy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 330625
Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2006 WRX
WRB

Default

Yeah, e85 is kind of cheating. You could do it on 93 with an SS EFR with this manifold no sweat with just a higher redline.
Leafy is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 11:14 AM   #519
KillerBMotorsport
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 198281
Join Date: Dec 2008
Chapter/Region: MAIC
Location: Virginia
Vehicle:
2005 WRX/STi
WRB of course

Default

Maybe, but until we see lots more data coming back from EFR setups (besides from the guys selling them) it's speculation.
KillerBMotorsport is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 11:21 AM   #520
manitou
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193757
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cedar, MI HP Techs MPS-SSLR2.5
Vehicle:
2006 XTI Limited
OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Layvon View Post
At the same time let's be honest with ourselves... Anyone that is auto crossing competitively is going to be using a smaller turbo anyways because of class reasons / spool up etc.

Jr & Paul made me realize this for my car too, I had a twin scroll 6262 and like they said, you don't use that power. It looks cool on paper to say i hit xx psi at 4,xxx RPM but in a drag or road course you're never there anyways. Having said all this, I'm going back with a 6266 vband and some secret goodies
Yeah, I agree but for a street/ touring car you want response and a wide power band. You are building a more dedicated drag/ track type car and that's fine. we all don't want the same type of performance out of our cars.

Now that you've driven my car you commented that power delivery was a smooth, linear and a steady rush from 2500-redline. The response is very good and that's what I was designing the build to do. It drives very well on the street as a DD for almost 600whp. It came out better than expected! Sure the 9.6:1 CR helps a bunch but I attribute a good bit of the performance to the KB Holy Header!

I think I can improve on this performance with the low mount kit that Chris is working on with a similar or slight larger turbo. I do not want twin scroll, i want to keep it simple. The design of the KBHH is such that the pulses match and work to come the closest that I've seen to TS designs and it's proven in the KB testing.

I can keep my 60ish lb turbo in it's efficiency range much longer than folks with bigger turbos and it's response is amazing between shifts. I'm in the next gear and gone while others are waiting for spool to happen in a lower gear. Perfect for a road/ touring DD type car!

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
^ agreed. As a street driver my favorite setup that has been on the car so far is the 3071. Response was near instant and FLAT curve from 3,800-7,000RPMs
My response on 93 PG is very similar with a larger stock location turbo, 300wtq at 37-3800, peaking at 400wtq and holding 300 out to redline on 22 psi of boost!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
I still want the widest powerband I can get. The wider you can make the powerband the better. Its almost disappointing in this day an age when a turbo 4 car cant make over 300ftlbs for at least 4000 rpms.
The graph above is a 93 pump gas plot. I make 400wtq from 4000 to almost 8000 with a Killer B Holy Header and a stock location Blouch 3.5xtr on E85. If you want that kind of torque/ power you have to use the right fuel.
manitou is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 11:25 AM   #521
Leafy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 330625
Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2006 WRX
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by KillerBMotorsport View Post
Maybe, but until we see lots more data coming back from EFR setups (besides from the guys selling them) it's speculation.
Does it have to be for subarus? I think with your header we can actually look at data from other engines as meaningful. Unlike the the 3 feet of piping between the engine and turbo like we have on stockish location setups. We already have the 6758 doing 300+ftlbs for more than 4000 rpms on a log manifold on a 1.9 liter, and it should be capable of doing that for 5000-5500 rpms on the same engine with e85, which is what I'm banking on it my racecar once I have a tranny in it that wont grenade at at over 250ftlbs.

Then of course with this low mount header a 6758 would be making 300ftlbs at or below 3000 rpm, like it should on a 2.5 liter.
Leafy is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 11:31 AM   #522
manitou
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193757
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cedar, MI HP Techs MPS-SSLR2.5
Vehicle:
2006 XTI Limited
OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Leafy View Post
Does it have to be for subarus? I think with your header we can actually look at data from other engines as meaningful. Unlike the the 3 feet of piping between the engine and turbo like we have on stockish location setups. We already have the 6758 doing 300+ftlbs for more than 4000 rpms on a log manifold on a 1.9 liter, and it should be capable of doing that for 5000-5500 rpms on the same engine with e85, which is what I'm banking on it my racecar once I have a tranny in it that wont grenade at at over 250ftlbs.

Then of course with this low mount header a 6758 would be making 300ftlbs at or below 3000 rpm, like it should on a 2.5 liter.
I don't see that 6758 holding the power out for even 4K let alone 5-5500. Why try to rev it out that far without making good power. For those revs you need way more flow than that turbo will provide.

I really like the what I'm seeing in the EFR7163 EWG v-band housing. That would make a great DD turbo with this low mount kit! It should have great response and very good top end power!
manitou is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 11:33 AM   #523
Leafy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 330625
Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2006 WRX
WRB

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by manitou View Post
I don't see that 6758 holding the power out for even 4K let alone 5-5500. Why try to rev it out that far without making good power. For those revs you need way more flow than that turbo will provide.

I really like the what I'm seeing in the EFR7163 EWG v-band housing. That would make a great DD turbo with this low mount kit! It should have great response and very good top end power!
It'll hold that torque out on the 1.9 liter in my racecar, not on a 2.5. It should still be able to still hold over 300ftlbs out to the stock redline on a 2.5. I'd still want a 7163 with the IWG on a low mount if I was trying to build a monster on a subaru.
Leafy is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 11:38 AM   #524
manitou
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 193757
Join Date: Nov 2008
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Location: Cedar, MI HP Techs MPS-SSLR2.5
Vehicle:
2006 XTI Limited
OBP, Junior tuned 573WHP

Default

Why IWG? It adds length to the housing that makes it hard to fit and I'd rather have a separate dump for the waste gate any way. You'll make more torque and power sooner with the EWG and it might even fit this low mount kit!

I doubt though that Chris will make accommodations for the EFR's but if you did the EWG housings would be the way to go!
manitou is offline  
Old 11-20-2013, 11:54 AM   #525
Leafy
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 330625
Join Date: Aug 2012
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: MA
Vehicle:
2006 WRX
WRB

Default

I like the IWG for the simplicity. Its normally easier to deal with the slightly longer turbine than have to cram and ewg line either back behind the driver with its own muffler (required in a whole bunch of racing series) or integrate it back into the down pipe. And then you have to worry about the damn egw tube cracking. I do wish that BW would release the damn 0.64A/R vband housing for the 58mm turbine that they already make, because indycar uses it.

Chris seems pretty dead set on using garrets, which is fine. But now we know that a low mount setup fits and vaguely what it looks like, I'm sure other people will come out with different flavors.
Leafy is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:27 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.