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Old 05-10-2013, 03:10 AM   #1
Concillian
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Default Concillian's EFR6758 / EJ207

Event: Road Dyno pulls
Location: Industrial park roads, Fremont, CA
Ambient Temp: 68F
Elevation: ~ @ Sea Level
Weather: Partly Cloudy
Track and Conditions: Average of 1 run each way
Tires: 225/45/17 Z1 Star Specs

Car: 2002 WRX
Tuner: Matt Cross (me) with Carberry ROM
Dyno Info: Airboy spreadsheet
Transmission: 06 Forester XT tranny (4.44 final, same ratios as 02-05 WRX)
Gear: 3rd
Peak HP at RPM: 376 HP @ 6900 RPM
Peak Torque at RPM: 327 HP @ 5450 RPM
Baseline hp/tq for a stock on same dyno: ~165 HP for stock EJ205
Target Boost: 21 psi
Target AFR: 11.7:1 gasoline equivalent
Fuel: E85
Engine/Power Modifications:
version 8 EJ207 converted to single scroll
Grimmspeed PnP manifold and crosspipe
Full Race EFR 6758 kit
Process West TMIC
Borla Hush catback
Injen Intake
Perrin Inlet
ID1000 injectors / DW300 Fuel pump

Driveline Modifications:
4.44 final drive 5MT transmission
Exedy light flywheel
South Bend "Stage 3 Daily" clutch
numerous driveline bushings

Suspension Modifications:
Koni Yellows with Swift R-Spec springs
04-07 Group-N hats.
ALK, trailing arm bushings, Adjustable lateral links, adjustable sway, etc...

Other Modifications:
Nothing significant.

I know some people have been wanting to see this, because I've been getting PMs here and there about it. Finally have the tune in good enough shape to post this up.




This is an average of both directions on a street near my work.
The airboy plots were similar in shape, but one was a little higher than another, so there's obviously some slope to the road.
The Virtual Dyno plots, on the other hand, are not near as close in shape to each other:



A realistic average of the two is probably closer to 420 than 430. Draw what conclusions you like.

You can see in the boost for the VD plots, I still have to smooth out boost oscillation at onset, but that won't affect what information people can gain from this.

3rd gear spool is happening at 3600-3700.
I didn't get a lot of experimenting with this on the 3.9 tranny, but based on 14psi at 3200 RPM, I expect it would have been 20 psi around ~3400 RPM on the 3.9 final drive.

And finally here it is compared to my old 18G/7cm on the EJ205 (also on E85, and using the same road, tires and road dyno settings except for the final drive):


Keeping in mind the 3.9 would spool 200 RPM quicker, the EFR curve would completely envelop the 18G/7cm on EJ205 curve. The 4.44 tranny and AVCS from the 207 make the current setup WAY more drivable in real world conditions even though the dyno charts make the low end look the same... It sure as hell doesn't feel the same.

ID1000s are essentially maxed.
I believe these runs were 98% peak.
I'll be turning boost down some for daily driving to give room for winter temperatures and to give a little margin for the 5 speed.
Realistically, this thing is plenty fast for me at 18-19psi.

-- Conc
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Last edited by Concillian; 05-11-2013 at 05:12 PM.
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:28 AM   #2
Fierysun
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Looks good. Seems like there's still power to be had with this setup at higher boost levels. Are you considering larger injectors for a later date?
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:31 AM   #3
thefoos
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^He could turn it up to 23-25 psi no problem, looks like he just needs injectors...

Glad to see this up. I went with a 7064 on my 205, and while that was an awesome setup, I think this FR kit with a 6258 or 6758 more suits my tastes. I bet with the 6758 and 4.444 gears, this is a lot of fun to drive...
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Old 05-10-2013, 01:56 PM   #4
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I'm not really planning on going bigger right now. Maybe down the road, but I doubt it. I'm pretty happy with the top end. I think the turbo is one of the better options in terms of spool and top end. Take a look at the ball bearing / billet 20Gs turbos... similar spool and power.... on a 2.5L. And this is on a 2.0L with potentially another 5-20 HP in it? Impressive turbo, I think. I expected it to top out around the ID1000s, and it has exceeded my expectations on that end. I expected it to spool slightly later than a vf39, and it has pretty much matched that expectation, potentially exceeding it. I don't really know where a vf39 spools on an EJ207.

I'm already on the edge of capability for a 5MT, and gonna try to keep that tranny in one piece, so I'm in no rush to upgrade further. I know people who have wrecked 5MTs with WAY less power, but I tend to be pretty gentle on shifts.

If anything, I've been wanting to build the old EJ205 block into something of a dialy driver oriented E85 only engine with the 79mm crank for 2.1L stroker. ~11:1, maybe even higher CR and running something like 14-15psi at spool tapering up to ~18-20 as the turbo runs out of steam at lower boost levels. The stroke and CR should offer maybe 10-20% or so more range on E85 and give a ton more off-boost torque, but keep the rest of the torque curve similar to how it is now for 5MT friendliness. Tune for a relatively flat ~300 TQ from 3500-6500 kind of thing, where my current chart is ~4000-6500. Broaden the torque band rather than raise the HP.

I'm getting fuel starve on hard right hands right now even around 1/2 a tank. 1/4 tank will completely stall on a hard right due to fuel slosh. So that's the more immediate concern. Having to look at the fuel gauge when I want to have fun sucks. Filling up every 100-120 miles so I don't have to watch the fuel gauge sucks too. I need to do some baffling around the fuel pump hangar to help with the fuel slosh and get the return feeding into that baffling. No plans on a surge tank or anything major, the car is a fun daily, and I want to be sure not to turn it into a racecar that's not fun to daily. I've seen too many people go overboard and they can only really enjoy the car a couple hours on the weekend. This is a commuter for me, and I'm not going to take it too far.

Last edited by Concillian; 05-10-2013 at 02:49 PM.
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Old 05-10-2013, 02:40 PM   #5
thefoos
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^the sti surge trap will take care of that issue. I had the same issues when on the road course...

You have another 20-40hp in it I'm sure, but I respect not wanting to blow the 5spd. I like your thinking as well. I love the 4.444 final. My old car was most fun with ~320whp on a smallish turbo and a FXT trans. I've had the same thoughts of taking that approach with higher compression...
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Old 05-10-2013, 03:24 PM   #6
Concillian
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I also should mention that the medium spring is almost at it's limit too. WGDC is climbing rapidly at late RPMs to keep the boost up.

Targeting 23 psi probably warrants the stiffer EFR WG can.
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:02 PM   #7
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nice. I cant believe your still on the stock 5mt?!?! I blew mine and knew it was coming. edit: I see you have a forester trans

Can you elaborate on the fuel pump issue? I was planning on running e85 in a year and with similar injectors. My salary will dictate a ej207 swap. Is this a normal issue with 1000cc injectors and upgraded fuel pump?
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:17 PM   #8
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Awesome setup, that's a huge powerband! Any noticeable heatsoak with the process west top mount at this power level? How do you like the drivability and response of the turbo, impressions?
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Old 05-10-2013, 04:48 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by paulpat View Post
nice. I cant believe your still on the stock 5mt?!?! I blew mine and knew it was coming. edit: I see you have a forester trans.

Can you elaborate on the fuel pump issue? I was planning on running e85 in a year and with similar injectors. My salary will dictate a ej207 swap. Is this a normal issue with 1000cc injectors and upgraded fuel pump?
My original 5MT didn't break. It had some synchro issues and it was leaking around the input shaft seal, not bad for over 180k miles. I picked up the FXT transmission and put an OBX limited slip into it since my tranny had to come out anyway and I'm not a struggling college student or anything. I somewhat regret not going 6 speed, but what's done is done.

I don't think it's really any stronger than a WRX transmission of the same year. The ratios are the same, so I have to assume the gears are the same.

The fuel pump issue is that there isn't the same amount of baffling in the WRX fuel tank as the STi. On hard right turns, the car goes right and the fuel all goes left, leaving the pump without fuel. It has nothing to do with the pump directly, but higher fuel flows make the problem worse. I wonder if this is partially due to the OBX diff, I'm definitely able to get on it sooner in a corner with the torsen diff.

Quote:
Awesome setup, that's a huge powerband! Any noticeable heatsoak with the process west top mount at this power level? How do you like the drivability and response of the turbo, impressions?
I'm running SD with the IAT in the stock location still, I don't know how hot air is actually coming out of the IC. The airflow is on a level that should be able to be handled by a TMIC. You may notice that I'm running "near" several limits. My injectors are AT the limit, the turbo is NEAR the limit, the fuel pump is near the limit of the stock fuel pump controller, the 5MT is near the limit, the TMIC is near the limit... this was the plan from the beginning. I had decided early not to go huge, I'm just not that kind of guy. I'm an engineer who planned the limits of all components to correspond closely to minimize extraneous cost. Boring in a crowd filled with bigger is always better, but the result is a car that is all around very balanced and very comfortable as a daily driver. If I ever want to go bigger, there's a whole slew of things that I have to be concerned about.

As I implied by comparing it to my old 18G / EJ205 setup, drivability is much improved. Turbo response is great above threshold, and like any turbo, it kinda sucks below threshold.

A lot of the drivability comes from the AVCS and the 4.44 tranny.
I've come to the realization that the EJ205 is downright flawed. A high revving block design with heads that can't rev, all coupled to a tranny that appears to have a terrible 1st and 2nd for the engine... presumably to not have to shift to 3rd for a 0-60 magazine number. No turbo will fix those flaws. There are people looking for "just the right turbo" to make the EJ205 feel great. I used to be one of those people. Eventually I realized the turbo isn't the problem. Some of these same issues existed with the TD04.

AVCS and the 4.44 transmission has done a lot to help with that issue. Say I'm coming onto a light that turns green just as I'm slowing to it. There is a left turn light like this on my commute, as I get to it, the sensors turn the light green for me. In the 3.9 transmission, I'd have the option of starting 2nd at <2k RPM and chugging it out, or going through the awful downsift to 1st and potentially bucking. I'm talking just normal everyday smooth driving here, not racing.

With the 4.44 final, and the extra pull from the AVCS it's much easier to stay in 2nd and go. you're at higher RPMs, so the engine is happier, and there's more pull from the engine due to the extra airflow from AVCS.

As I've said in some of the threads in the 2.0L forum. The EJ205 has deep design flaws preventing it from having a comfortable drivability. If you want to fix them, you have to be prepared to replace major components of the drivetrain (engine, heads and/or transmission). Once you do, the car just feels a LOT better.

The turbo is nice, but the engine and transmission is a major part of the drivability. This turbo or even the smaller 6258 will not solve the inherent flaws in the 02-05 WRX.

Last edited by Concillian; 05-10-2013 at 05:02 PM.
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Old 05-10-2013, 05:06 PM   #10
treystoys
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I wouldnt worry about the tranny too much. I've been running a 4.44 fxt tranny on my set up for about 3 years now. I'm at 460whp on VD. Ver8 207 93 octane 24lbs. I love the 4.44 on this set up too, if you feel like you want a bit more pull up top switch to 245/45 17s at near 26" tall, it feels better on the hill, and helped millage a tad.

Trey
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:06 PM   #11
Fierysun
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
I've come to the realization that the EJ205 is downright flawed. A high revving block design with heads that can't rev, all coupled to a tranny that appears to have a terrible 1st and 2nd for the engine... presumably to not have to shift to 3rd for a 0-60 magazine number. No turbo will fix those flaws. There are people looking for "just the right turbo" to make the EJ205 feel great. I used to be one of those people. Eventually I realized the turbo isn't the problem. Some of these same issues existed with the TD04.

The turbo is nice, but the engine and transmission is a major part of the drivability. This turbo or even the smaller 6258 will not solve the inherent flaws in the 02-05 WRX.
I completely agree with you.

You still can (and should) do the 6mt swap. All those gearing issue of the 5mt disappears with the close ratio 6 speed on the 2.0L. It's ironic, because the 04-06 6mt isn't geared properly for the 2.5L, but it's perfect for the 2.0L.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:12 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
I completely agree with you.

You still can (and should) do the 6mt swap. All those gearing issue of the 5mt disappears with the close ratio 6 speed on the 2.0L. It's ironic, because the 04-06 6mt isn't geared properly for the 2.5L, but it's perfect for the 2.0L.
Wasn't the 6 speed designed for the 2.0 across the ocean in the first place?

This thread is great; it points out the flaws of the 205, but it also shows a piecemail way to fix the 2.no. Thanks!

Last edited by Zee Biker; 05-10-2013 at 08:31 PM.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:18 PM   #13
Fierysun
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[quote=Zee Biker;39782136]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
I completely agree with you.

You still can (and should) do the 6mt swap. All those gearing issue of the 5mt disappears with the close ratio 6 speed on the 2.0L. It's ironic, because the 04-06 6mt isn't geared properly for the 2.5L, but it's perfect for the 2.0L.[/QUOTE]

Wasn't the 6 speed designed for the 2.0 across the ocean in the first place?

This thread is great; it points out the flaws of the 205, but it also shows a piecemail way to fix the 2.no. Thanks!
That's correct, but they didn't change the gearing to better suit the 2.5L till 07. It's really too close for the larger motor.
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:35 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
That's correct, but they didn't change the gearing to better suit the 2.5L till 07. It's really too close for the larger motor.
The 2.5 motor was a usdm reaction to our inherent demand for low end torque, not the evolution of design (evo joke).

The 2.5 seems to do just fine with the 5 speed, until the torque shreds them apart of course. Also partly to blame is the 3 decade old design of that box and gears!
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Old 05-10-2013, 08:44 PM   #15
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awesome, thanks for posting this up! stupid question, but you did change the values in Airboy/VD to reflect your final drive, right? and on a side note - man i wish E85 was more readily available!
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:27 PM   #16
Concillian
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Yes, I changed the values to reflect the final drive. If you put a 4.44 log into the spreadsheet and leave the 3.9 final, it comes out with HUGE HP (480 HP airboy... )

I knew gearing would make a difference, but I underestimated the extent of the difference.
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Old 05-10-2013, 09:32 PM   #17
Concillian
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fierysun View Post
I completely agree with you.

You still can (and should) do the 6mt swap.
Anything is possible... with money and time.
We bought a crossover a couple years ago for kids, this chunk was to make my car viable for another several years. Next up is replacing my wife's 12 year old commuter. After that, who knows? Or if I break this gearbox and NEED to do something.
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Old 05-11-2013, 01:16 PM   #18
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Nice figures! Awesome powerband for street use. This must kick some serious arse on the roads. Keep us posted.

Cheers,

Jasper.
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Old 05-12-2013, 11:45 PM   #19
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some subarus came with stock surge boxes. i found one on my 05 wrx when i did a fuel pump and my friend had one in his 07 sti when he did his swap as well. prob can be found cheap but that will solve ur problem. dont want it to run lean and burn up on ya! thanks for posting this up. I had been waiting a while now. just need to figure out what i want to do about spending a few grand on the damn up pipe and down pipe. did a lapping day on a small track last weekend and the vf37 is great but def runs out up top. plus it wont be able to handle the antilag once i get my speed density all tuned up and ready to go but i figure these turns are built to last so maybe ill jsut go with it!
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Old 10-24-2013, 08:39 AM   #20
thefoos
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Just bumping this for the OP's opinion after ~5 months. My future setup will be much like this and I'm wondering how you like it now...
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:37 PM   #21
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It's still something I enjoy. I'm kinda easy to please, I went like 150k on a TD04. I'm not the type to go changing my mind much after I've committed.

Gearbox is still in one piece
I've only had two problems:
- I seem to be leaking coolant somewhere. I can smell it and see white residue on the header tank and passenger head and need to fill the overflow periodically, but whenever I open the hood it's dry.
- I had to cut the large one piece Process West silicone hose to shorten the elbow for the slightly different location of the compressor output. The joiner needed to be really short, and I didn't have room for a 3" joiner with rolled edges on both ends. I had to chop one up, and used a completely smooth joiner. It worked for a long time, but blew apart a few weeks ago. I got it back together using one rolled end and a double clamp on the flat end. It held up to a lot of yanking and twisting, so it should hold indefinitely now.

I've been tuning some cars for locals (both Subarus and Evos), so I've seen a few setups over those few months. This is the favorite of what I've driven, but if I had a stock turbo STi, I'd probably be happy with that (on E85) and leave it alone, mostly did what I did because of the deficiencies with the EJ205 and the age of the stock motor.
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Old 10-28-2013, 03:58 PM   #22
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How do you like the 4.44 on the highway? I have the v7 6mt and 6th is just a little too short for my liking, more annoying than anything.
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Old 10-28-2013, 04:42 PM   #23
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It's around 3000-3300 RPM on the highway with 225/45/17. Sure, I wish it were taller on the freeway, but that's the trade you make for vastly improved low-end. JDM 6th is the easiest / cheapest way to get a 6MT+ R180, and the short 6th is the trade-off that comes with.

I think the FXT 4.44 5th is pretty much the same total ratio as the JDM 6 speed 6th gear.

Last edited by Concillian; 10-28-2013 at 04:50 PM.
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Old 10-29-2013, 02:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Concillian View Post
- I had to cut the large one piece Process West silicone hose to shorten the elbow for the slightly different location of the compressor output. The joiner needed to be really short, and I didn't have room for a 3" long joiner with rolled edges on both ends. I had to chop one up, and used a completely smooth joiner. It worked for a long time, but blew apart a few weeks ago. I got it back together using one rolled end and a double clamp on the flat end. It held up to a lot of yanking and twisting, so it should hold indefinitely now.
Well, it popped off this morning... Back to the drawing board. I don't know which end popped off. Hopefully the flat end and I can makeshift a bead. I may need to buy a new Y-hose if it's the other end. Was hoping to avoid that since they're nearly $100.
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Old 11-01-2013, 12:07 PM   #25
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Very nice powerband. I wonder how this would perform on a 2.5L...i've been looking for an appropriately small EFR for my 06 STi.
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