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Old 09-11-2013, 02:05 PM   #26
Element Tuning
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Originally Posted by bswilmington View Post
I agree with you that stock ecu has 3 phases. Port, direct, and blend.
But according to my notes the stock ecu fires the port injector on intake stroke so fuel can atomize and on the power stroke as piston is moving down the DI system fires more fuel to keep the flame moving and make more power since the DI system can overcome the cylinder pressure. This is only on high rpm aka full throttle. I was wondering if hydra keep this logic.

Im not refering to any of the low loads as the ecu mostly runs in DI except for on start up and when it determines port injection is needed. And I like totally nerdy, thats the only reason Im commenting on this
What's interesting is that much of what I researched and the documentation does not match the strategies we actually scoped while we reverse engineered the OEM ecu. They do actually fire the DI at startup with the residual pressure that is left in the high pressure pump. We do the same and you get faster starting this way.

In any event the beauty of the Hydra is that you can run any strategy you want but much of what you described is just how port normally functions and the same with DI. The port injection, unlike the DI can continue to spray fuel even when the intake valve is closed so you can start your injector phasing much sooner and you can have a longer pulse that continues even when the valve closes again. With DI you have a much smaller window phasing wise and pulse width wise to get the job done. So your injection phase is realistically limited to about 1/4 of the total cylinder cycle. The DI pump pressure is not high enough on this car to overcome spraying near the top of the power stroke.

You have a 3D Direct Injection Phasing map so you can blend your DI strategies at different RPM and Load levels. I've worked on some crazy lean burn strategies and I've done stuff with the DI that made more power but AFRs were off the chart lean. We empower you to do whatever you feel is right but that doesn't mean it will work out best

In a nutshell you can run OEM strategy or better my strategy . Anyways it's totally awesome to play with this on the dyno and quiet enlightening.
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Old 09-11-2013, 02:52 PM   #27
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Originally Posted by Element Tuning View Post
What's interesting is that much of what I researched and the documentation does not match the strategies we actually scoped while we reverse engineered the OEM ecu. They do actually fire the DI at startup with the residual pressure that is left in the high pressure pump. We do the same and you get faster starting this way.

In any event the beauty of the Hydra is that you can run any strategy you want but much of what you described is just how port normally functions and the same with DI. The port injection, unlike the DI can continue to spray fuel even when the intake valve is closed so you can start your injector phasing much sooner and you can have a longer pulse that continues even when the valve closes again. With DI you have a much smaller window phasing wise and pulse width wise to get the job done. So your injection phase is realistically limited to about 1/4 of the total cylinder cycle. The DI pump pressure is not high enough on this car to overcome spraying near the top of the power stroke.

You have a 3D Direct Injection Phasing map so you can blend your DI strategies at different RPM and Load levels. I've worked on some crazy lean burn strategies and I've done stuff with the DI that made more power but AFRs were off the chart lean. We empower you to do whatever you feel is right but that doesn't mean it will work out best

In a nutshell you can run OEM strategy or better my strategy . Anyways it's totally awesome to play with this on the dyno and quiet enlightening.
Unfortuantly at this time I wont get to play with either as I own a Sti. Now if you want to donate me a BRZ and hyrdra


Well I wasnt talking about spraying fuel when the piston is compressing or even starting to move down. You would rely on the port injectors for the initial combustion. I am refering to once the piston is on its way down the oem ecu sprays fuel to help continue the inital burn. I was told this is how subaru does it to make extra power. It was interesting as this is first I have heard of this and hadnt really even thought about it making any more power. Now I would think this could cause some weird AFRs.

I dont know if you have looked at the new turbo forester but they run DI only system. You may be able to use those DI injectors cause they should be bigger but I have yet to compare them. The new foresters once warmed up spray twice per combustion event. Once on the intake stroke that give ~18:1 AFR and once on the compression stroke to give ~13:1 AFR. Combined its suppose to run on ~16:1 AFR. I guess Subaru is now trying to lean out its AFR for better fuel mileage?

But like you said, you have full control of the injectors and spray points, the tuner can do whatever they want.
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Old 09-11-2013, 04:36 PM   #28
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Well I wasnt talking about spraying fuel when the piston is compressing or even starting to move down. You would rely on the port injectors for the initial combustion. I am refering to once the piston is on its way down the oem ecu sprays fuel to help continue the inital burn. I was told this is how subaru does it to make extra power. It was interesting as this is first I have heard of this and hadnt really even thought about it making any more power. Now I would think this could cause some weird AFRs.
.
I know what you meant but no that's not what they are doing at high RPM based on real world scoping. It's just a single injection event on the DI side for the FRS/BRZ and not multiple pulses like the newer Subaru you mentioned.

The engine primarily relies on direct injection and the port injection is to supplement high RPM fuel delivery, control EGTs to protect the catalytic converters, and also to clean the intake valves. Now when you are running a boosted, catless setup we can get more aggressive with the direct injection rates at high RPM. If you request a large injector pulse you will get the effect you are describing because the injector pulse cannot finish in time.

Now doing this will fool many tuners and it fooled me at first because you will get a super lean AFR reading, like 17:1 and think to yourself, "how on earth am I making 400 whp at 17:1 and this engine isn't detonating itself to pieces or how is it even still running?" It isn't until you start backing down your DI injection rate that you discover what you were really doing was flooding the engine and not running lean.
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Old 10-08-2013, 04:24 PM   #29
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With the Hydra EMS is it possible to keep on the stability control and tune when it intervenes, or is it only traction control that can be tuned? it would be nice to be able to still have stability control and traction control and be able to tune either for higher grip levels possible with suspension,slicks,and down force.

Whiteline from Australia came out with this http://www.whiteline.com.au/docs/bulletins/152_HBM.pdf a while back for the 350z, but i dont think its any longer in production.
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Old 10-08-2013, 10:13 PM   #30
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Stability control remains oem and traction control is user programable via the Hydra EMS. Traction control is a little easier for a tuner since it uses the delta between wheel speeds and then the tuner can choose fuel cut cycles and or ignition based on the delta difference they decide to be too much slip. Stability control also uses many more sensors and would be very difficult for someone to tune.
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Old 10-10-2013, 12:55 AM   #31
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Stability control remains oem and traction control is user programable via the Hydra EMS. Traction control is a little easier for a tuner since it uses the delta between wheel speeds and then the tuner can choose fuel cut cycles and or ignition based on the delta difference they decide to be too much slip. Stability control also uses many more sensors and would be very difficult for someone to tune.
Could the Hydra EMS be setup easily to have a different target slip when cornering, similarly to the traction control module being offered by hondata that can pretty much work on any vehicle with ABS speed sensors and a engine management capable of retarding ignition based on an analog voltage input.

http://www.hondata.com/help/tractioncontrol/index.html

Also, from your own experience of racing the car, do you find that even with the stability control set to sport mode, you cant produce the best times without the system being completely off? It would seem with suspension,slicks, downforce,etc. the factory tuned stability control may be holding back the car?
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Old 10-10-2013, 02:03 PM   #32
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The Hydra uses the 4 wheel speed sensors for determining slip already, the user can program how much "slip" is OK, and what it outside of that the user can program a number of fuel and ignition trims to control wheel slip.

Stability control different as it use the ABS brake module to control stability and not engine tuning.

The stability control on the FRS/BRZ is for saving you when you're texting and drinking coffee in the rain or snow while driving, but it completely useless for going fast on a race track.

Now a performance based traction control tune will net significant gains on high power FRS/BRZ track cars.
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Old 10-10-2013, 06:24 PM   #33
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The Hydra uses the 4 wheel speed sensors for determining slip already, the user can program how much "slip" is OK, and what it outside of that the user can program a number of fuel and ignition trims to control wheel slip.

Stability control different as it use the ABS brake module to control stability and not engine tuning.

The stability control on the FRS/BRZ is for saving you when you're texting and drinking coffee in the rain or snow while driving, but it completely useless for going fast on a race track.

Now a performance based traction control tune will net significant gains on high power FRS/BRZ track cars.
I understood that the Hydra EMS uses the wheel speed sensors to determine wheel slip, but what i was asking, which i was trying to bring across in the link i provided, is can you have two different slip targets. One target for straight line acceleration and another slip target for cornering. It seems like something that could be easily implemented to the Hydra EMS if its not already standard. If not, there is always your "Google software engineer"

Last edited by shomspeed; 10-11-2013 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 10-14-2013, 01:49 PM   #34
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I understood that the Hydra EMS uses the wheel speed sensors to determine wheel slip, but what i was asking, which i was trying to bring across in the link i provided, is can you have two different slip targets. One target for straight line acceleration and another slip target for cornering. It seems like something that could be easily implemented to the Hydra EMS if its not already standard. If not, there is always your "Google software engineer"
I understood what you meant but the stability control requires tuning of the ABS computer system, not the engine.

Yes we can do it but not we are not going to do it unless somebody pays for the R&D and I'm not. I prefer the "counter steer" stability control method
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Old 10-14-2013, 02:34 PM   #35
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I understood what you meant but the stability control requires tuning of the ABS computer system, not the engine.

Yes we can do it but not we are not going to do it unless somebody pays for the R&D and I'm not. I prefer the "counter steer" stability control method
Now i think I'm confused, you had mentioned that the stability control functions as standard, and there is no tuning of that available with the Hydra EMS, so i assumed that you would race with stability control completely off, and just traction control on. So are you saying you cant have a different slip targets for straight line acceleration and cornering for traction control, without tuning the ABS computer? I would think the stability control is off?
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Old 10-14-2013, 03:10 PM   #36
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Now i think I'm confused, you had mentioned that the stability control functions as standard, and there is no tuning of that available with the Hydra EMS, so i assumed that you would race with stability control completely off, and just traction control on. So are you saying you cant have a different slip targets for straight line acceleration and cornering for traction control, without tuning the ABS computer? I would think the stability control is off?
I'm not sure how I could be more clear but I'll restate it again just in case I wasn't.

Traction control is tuneable in the Hydra EMS.

Stability control remains OEM via the CAN computer and the ABS computer. So nothing changes with how it functions when you install a Hydra EMS.

So in a nutshell, slip angle (data from yaw and steering angle) isn't controlled by the traction control, it's controlled via the stability control. The delta between the average of the two front wheels speeds vs. the average speeds of the rear wheels is what determines how much the traction control intervenes. So if you spin the rear wheels in straight line or going sideways "traction control" will step in.

If you are cornering so fast that the rear end steps out without a huge delta between axles speeds (momentum drift) "stability control" kicks in and applies the brakes on each axle independently to straighten the car. In this case the wheel speed delta will not be high enough to kick "traction control" in but data from yaw and steering angle will set the "stability control" in motion.
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Old 10-14-2013, 03:39 PM   #37
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I'm not sure how I could be more clear but I'll restate it again just in case I wasn't.

Traction control is tuneable in the Hydra EMS.

Stability control remains OEM via the CAN computer and the ABS computer. So nothing changes with how it functions when you install a Hydra EMS.

So in a nutshell, slip angle (data from yaw and steering angle) isn't controlled by the traction control, it's controlled via the stability control. The delta between the average of the two front wheels speeds vs. the average speeds of the rear wheels is what determines how much the traction control intervenes. So if you spin the rear wheels in straight line or going sideways "traction control" will step in.

If you are cornering so fast that the rear end steps out without a huge delta between axles speeds (momentum drift) "stability control" kicks in and applies the brakes on each axle independently to straighten the car. In this case the wheel speed delta will not be high enough to kick "traction control" in but data from yaw and steering angle will set the "stability control" in motion.
Understood, so if the slip angle (data from yaw and steering angle) is controlled via the stability control, your saying the Hydra EMS in its present configuration cant have two different slip targets (straight line & cornering) without the R&D done to the Stability Control, as the Stability Control, is whats determining the level of "Cornering" and not the Traction Control, Correct?
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Old 10-14-2013, 07:00 PM   #38
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No, but I think you get the jist of it but don't blend the two systems together (stability and traction).

Stability Control = Slip Angle = ABS computer
Traction Control = Wheel Speed Delta = Engine Computer

So in cases when you are turning but throttle input and HP are excessive resulting in the rear going sideways, traction control will striaghten the car out. This is where the Hydra's programmable traction control will be a huge asset because its won't act like the oem on/off switch. The driver can go full throttle and slide a little but not have excessive wheel spin.

Now if you enter the corner way too hot, the rear end comes around, but your not on the throttle, traction control will not help because your loss of traction has nothing to do with HP.

I think the stability control is worthless for racing and guys that try and use it on track, burn up the brakes, but it does a good job in snow and rain.
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Old 10-14-2013, 07:28 PM   #39
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No, but I think you get the jist of it but don't blend the two systems together (stability and traction).

Stability Control = Slip Angle = ABS computer
Traction Control = Wheel Speed Delta = Engine Computer

So in cases when you are turning but throttle input and HP are excessive resulting in the rear going sideways, traction control will striaghten the car out. This is where the Hydra's programmable traction control will be a huge asset because its won't act like the oem on/off switch. The driver can go full throttle and slide a little but not have excessive wheel spin.

Now if you enter the corner way too hot, the rear end comes around, but your not on the throttle, traction control will not help because your loss of traction has nothing to do with HP.

I think the stability control is worthless for racing and guys that try and use it on track, burn up the brakes, but it does a good job in snow and rain.
I understand they function separately, and have already accepted your own experience that the stability control is useless for track purposes. So just focusing on traction control alone with stability completely off, i wanted to know if the Hydra EMS, which from your own description "we can do just about anything" could have its traction control feature setup to be able to have two separate slip targets for straight line and cornering without breaking the bank! The hondata system doesn't use a yaw sensor or a steering angle sensor to determine if the car is cornering but rather comparing all four wheel speeds, left to right. If the Hydra EMS is already monitoring a four wheels speeds, how hard would this be to implement?
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Old 10-14-2013, 08:30 PM   #40
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Ok so I understand what your getting at I just don't understand how it will help. So in the Hydra software you define the wheel speed delta in which "Traction Control" maps are turned on. So you can make it sensitive or numb. So a very sensitive setting would come into play with very little wheel slip or say while making a "u-turn" where the rear travels less distance than front and the inside rear barely turns. So too sensitive means the ecu would fuel and igniton cut making "u-turns" which isn't good. There is a compromise in there.

Now the goal with a performance traction control is to drive the car forward with the greatest acceleration. This wouldn't be different going straight or turning, forward drive is king. The Hydra with optimal tuning would allow traction to be regained without restraining the engine excessively.

Now if we add steering angle to the mix to define a new slip delta limit how will this help grip under acceleration? Are you suggesting to allow more slip delta or less? Without a yaw sensor how will the system know you're turning left if the steering wheel is pointed right as you counter steer drifting through a turn?

I have a feeling the Hydra will already do what you want it to do, which is reduce or prevent power on oversteer through turns. This type of slip control won't hurt your lap times because you can still induce throttle lift oversteer (which you cannot with stability control) to "tighten" your line.

The other thing I never mentioned is that the traction control tuning is also gear based. So you can have more sensitive at high speeds vs low speeds to keep the rear more "tidy" say during a 120 mph turn.

Make sense?
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Old 10-14-2013, 09:46 PM   #41
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Ok so I understand what your getting at I just don't understand how it will help. So in the Hydra software you define the wheel speed delta in which "Traction Control" maps are turned on. So you can make it sensitive or numb. So a very sensitive setting would come into play with very little wheel slip or say while making a "u-turn" where the rear travels less distance than front and the inside rear barely turns. So too sensitive means the ecu would fuel and igniton cut making "u-turns" which isn't good. There is a compromise in there.

Now the goal with a performance traction control is to drive the car forward with the greatest acceleration. This wouldn't be different going straight or turning, forward drive is king. The Hydra with optimal tuning would allow traction to be regained without restraining the engine excessively.

Now if we add steering angle to the mix to define a new slip delta limit how will this help grip under acceleration? Are you suggesting to allow more slip delta or less? Without a yaw sensor how will the system know you're turning left if the steering wheel is pointed right as you counter steer drifting through a turn?

I have a feeling the Hydra will already do what you want it to do, which is reduce or prevent power on oversteer through turns. This type of slip control won't hurt your lap times because you can still induce throttle lift oversteer (which you cannot with stability control) to "tighten" your line.

The other thing I never mentioned is that the traction control tuning is also gear based. So you can have more sensitive at high speeds vs low speeds to keep the rear more "tidy" say during a 120 mph turn.

Make sense?
I'm Suggesting less Slip Delta,as the tires will not accept as much longitudinal slip if there is a lateral force (cornering) on the tire. And the Slip Delta target would need to be changed for a wet track as well. So essentially you would have dry and wet Slip Delta targets for both straight line acceleration and cornering. You probably would need a switch to toggle between wet and dry traction control maps on the center console, etc.

I don't see the yaw sensor a must for slip Delta targets for cornering, (Hondata has already proven this). Obviously though, a better more refined traction control, like what is found on Motec, Pectel, Syvecs,Life racing,etc. would use a yaw sensor to determine the lateral force acting on the tires, instead of just looking for a speed difference between the left and right wheels to determine if the car is turning, which is what the Hondata system is doing.
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Old 10-14-2013, 11:11 PM   #42
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I tell you what, buy an FRS/BRZ Hydra EMS and I will add a steering angle sensor pwm trim map specifically for you. So you would have a 2D map of steering angle vs trim%. This would allow you to reduce wheel speed delta trigger at higher steering angles.

Now if someone is competing at a level where I am you will have a laptop and if you need to when it rains you will load your "wet" traction control map that you would have tuned specifically for rain.

I believe when you actually tune the traction control, not sure you have experience with this, but how you dial out the wheel spin is more important than the delta you set for your traction control trigger.
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Old 10-15-2013, 06:01 PM   #43
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I tell you what, buy an FRS/BRZ Hydra EMS and I will add a steering angle sensor pwm trim map specifically for you. So you would have a 2D map of steering angle vs trim%. This would allow you to reduce wheel speed delta trigger at higher steering angles.

Now if someone is competing at a level where I am you will have a laptop and if you need to when it rains you will load your "wet" traction control map that you would have tuned specifically for rain.

I believe when you actually tune the traction control, not sure you have experience with this, but how you dial out the wheel spin is more important than the delta you set for your traction control trigger.
May just take you up on your offer in the very near future and take one of your dry sump kits too! Do i get any kind of discount if i bring other customers to you

Its still early days though for the BR-Z in its development. Still waiting to see what other reputable brands will bring to the table for this platform, there isn't even a stroker kit yet available. HKS has developed one, but its not out yet, from what have seen. Plus my car is still under warranty, don't want to start messing with it until that's up

The club series i use to compete in (different priorities at the moment) there is no stopping when the race starts to be switching traction control maps with your laptop. So it would have to be something i can do on the fly in the event it starts to rain.
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Old 10-28-2013, 06:01 PM   #44
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Hey Phil, this is Bryan from Slowmotion Motorsports. I figured I would ask in here since we are talking about the capabilities of the 2.7. Are there engine protection settings in the 2.7? I am interested in lean protection to cut fuel/ignition, and fuel pressure protection as well.
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Old 10-29-2013, 01:51 PM   #45
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Hey Phil, this is Bryan from Slowmotion Motorsports. I figured I would ask in here since we are talking about the capabilities of the 2.7. Are there engine protection settings in the 2.7? I am interested in lean protection to cut fuel/ignition, and fuel pressure protection as well.
Yes you have have individual cylinder knock protection and a number of ways to fine tune how you would like the knock system to act and when to go into the "backup spark" map which is your "limp" CEL map. You also have Fuel and Boost trims for each "knock" event so after 1 degree of knock retard you can add x% of fuel and or reduce boost by x psi.



Now for the items you want, you'll need the "Epsilon" version to add all those external sensor inputs and configure them to the ECU. Here is a simple example of what you can do. We an also write more complex "advanced expressions" to fine tune the window you want to work within.



Ok so now that we've configured an internal output we can can now set this "INF01" in our Auxiliary Input Requests and set to "Backup Spark Map." so now if the fuel pressure falls outside these parameters the CEL will illuminate and the "Backup" map will be enabled.

Any more questions don't hesitate to post.

Thanks,
Phil Grabow
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Old 10-29-2013, 04:09 PM   #46
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I think that answers my questions relevant to this thread. I sent you an e-mail, I think I'm ready to place an order!
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