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Old 06-15-2013, 12:35 PM   #551
capt.klogg
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that is very interesting.
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Old 06-21-2013, 11:08 PM   #552
AlphaWRX
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Default Thank you

Tank you very much for the time you put into answering all of my concerns. I need to replace the rear calipers on my 02 WRX and have been spending coountless amounts of time on reading and understanding the best upgrade after reading this I comlletely agree with you one hundred percent thank you thank you thank you, i defff will not be purchasing Brembos, although i may go for the 4 pot 2 pot for looks and deff will not be getting slotted rotors again thank you
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Old 06-24-2013, 11:16 PM   #553
SubieYourSelf203
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Davenow View Post
READ THIS FIRST

The point of this thread, since no one seems to be able to get this, and I will add it to the first post is

99% of people, with increased power, the only time they are going to need stopping power greater than what a bone stock brake/tire setup can offer, is when they are going down the road and have an "OH ISHT" panic brake situation.

And in that situation, there is no brake setup on the planet that will stop you any faster than the OEM pads/rotors/lines/fluid will.
The ONLY thing that will shorten that distance, is a stickier tire.

And for most people, they mod their car and they go out and rail on it from a stop or roll, usually in a straight line. The braking power they have to worry about is going to come into play

when they see a cop
When they hit a red light
When something is coming out in front of them
When there is some reason they need to get on the brakes hard and fast to avoid hitting something.

None of those things would see any benefit whatsoever, from upgraded pads,rotors, lines, or fluid, or any combination of them. Only a stickier tire is going to make the car slow down or stop in a shorter distance.

So, to be clear, if in an effort to make the message of this post look incorrect, you are posting something completely irrelevant if you

1. You bring up power gains
2. You bring up racing
3. You bring up anything other than the type of street driving that 99% of people actually do.
---Most people don't do canyon runs or anything similar to that.

Unfortunately, those 3 points above, encompass at least half the responses in this thread
Point is, stop trying to come up with situations that I am not talking about, just to make this post look incorrect, to justify what you spent on your brake kit. Maybe you do something that requires it, most people however, even with 400+whp, don't, and won't.

And just to make it clear once again.

For 99% of people with increased HP, the main brake performance issue is going to be

Panic braking in an emergency situation (be it a cop, old lady pulling in front of them, or just oh **** a red light)

When people talk about modding their car to make more power, someone almost always comes in and tells them that with more power, they need more handling and more braking.

While this is solid reasoning, its not always a necessity.

My personal philosophy is that when upgrading a vehicle, address everything, to maintain a nice balance.

However, there is a flaw with part of the logic of "if you upgrade one you must upgrade all 3 in order to remain safe"

If you go from stock, to 400whp, upgrading the brakes, IS NOT NEEDED AND YOU WILL BE NO SAFER THAN YOU WOULD BE ON STOCK BRAKES.

Now, I know a lot of you are now no longer reading this and are already forming your replies, and unfortunately many of you will base them on beliefs you have formed by reading what others have said on the internet, who only said what they said, because they read it on the internet. Or based on misconceptions. (some of you may have well thought out and solid arguements as well) Those of you about to say I am wrong, I assure you, are wrong. Please do me and yourselves a favor, and make sure you UNDERSTAND WHAT I AM SAYING before replying.

Here is the thing.

A WRX with @170whp (stock 2.0L typical) traveling at 10, 40, 60, 130mph, will take the exact same force to stop, as a fire breathing alcohol fueled 800whp WRX traveling 10, 40, 60, 130mph.

Take either of those cars, put a $14000 stoptech 8 piston f/6piston r setup, and do the same full boogie panic stops, and what do we get?

THE EXACT SAME STOPPING DISTANCE.

(now, lets leave heat induced fade off the table for now, as it isnt something that 90% of people that would argue that you have to upgrade the brakes would ever run into on stock brakes anyway) For the sake of this discussion, lets look at what people are really talking about. Panic stops, someone pulls in front of you OH ISHT nailing the brakes to avoid hitting them, stopping or the rate at which you can slow down enough to avoid impact (since you dont always have to stop)

Why is that?

What stops cars? What is the ultimate force that determines what point the traveling vehicle will no longer be traveling?

Friction. Not the friction between the pads and the rotors, but the friction between the tire and the road.

Now, lets take 2 cars again.

First WRX, 170whp, bone stock brakes. 225/45/17s in a dot legal R compound.

Second car, whatever WHP, and $7k in brake upgrades. Stock tires. Heck lets even say they went to stock STI 225/45/17 RE070s.

Send both cars down the same road, in the same weather conditions at the same speed. Have someone pull out in front of them.

Tell me, which one will stop short enough, or be able to slow down fast enough to avoid a wreck?

I bet more than half of nasioc would pick the car with $7k in brake upgrades. Those people would all be in an accident.

How does a car stop? Well, how does it move? What moves, that causes the big hunk of metal to move?

TIRES.

What gets a car off the line faster? Less wheelspin. WHat gets you less wheelspin? Stickier tires.

What gets you through a corner faster? More traction, what gets you more traction? Stickier tires.

Just like when you are trying to accelerate a vehicle, the amount of grip the tire has on the road, will determine how fast you can get moving forward (or backwards if you are a launch in reverse type of guy ) Its the EXACT SAME THING when trying to slow or stop.

OEM brakes have FAR more than enough power to lock up even a big wide sticky r compound tire.

People like to cite that the STI has a shorter stopping distance with its Brembos. The brembos have nothing to do with it. The RE92s have everything to do with it.

So a lot of people at this point, will argue that "well then why do they put brembos and big brakes on sports cars if they dont stop you any shorter"

The answer is intended purpose, and as much as many people dont want to believe, LOOKS/CUSTOMER PERCEPTION.

The "intended use" for the STI is hard performance driving. Track days, racing, its a car with actual motorsport use in mind. Even if they have watered it down and softened it for normal day to day use, its still a car that was built for motorsport use.

Big fixed mount calipers with lots of pistons, and large diameter rotors offer something a floating caliper with normal sized rotors dont offer. Mass. More mass=more resistance to heat induced fade. They also offer a more consistant and precise pedal, which allows finer braking control into corners.

They also offer a look. Like the new WRX, look at how many people complain that they "downgraded" the brakes. When in fact, from a stopping distance standpoint, there is no change.

Look at the competition for the STI, the EVO. What would happen to STi sales if they removed the brembos and the EVO kept them? That would sway those people who are on the fence, a little more towards the EVO.

Finally, lets look at the group-N STI rally cars. What brakes do they run?

That's right, not the Brembos. They run the older FHI 4 pot/2 pot setup in order to clear the smaller rally wheels. Yet they stop JUST FINE.

Lines, well lines are, from a stopping distance and fade standpoint, completely useless. Nail the brakes, things lock up rubber or steel lines makes no difference. Heat the brakes up, stainless lines have nothing to do with anything.

What lines DO get you, is a more consistant pedal, allowing more precise control.

Fluid, unless you are doing repeated hard braking enough to boil normal fluid, going to "upgraded" fluid, is a waste of money, and $18/bottle motul wont get you anything that $3 autozone fluid wont.

Rotors? NEVER an upgrade unless your factory rotors are damaged/very worn. Or if you go to a larger diameter rotor. Even then, that will only increase the amount of force per bit of pedal travel, to the point where they just lock up. Which would have happened on OEM sized rotors anyway. Slotted/drilled, at this point, is pointless and is for looks. Modern pads dont off gas like they used to, so having the slots/dimples/holes to vent off the gasses, well there is no need. Not only that, but 90% of drilled rotors will end up cracking. So if you want the look, GO FOR IT!, but buy a rotor that was cast with holes, not a solid that was drilled after. Break out the wallet though, and be prepared to search, not many people carry them and they arent cheap. If you do shows, do what I did, carry a set of $99 ebay cross drilled rotors with you and slap them on at the show. It takes 20 min.

"BUT MY BUDDY PUT BREMBOS ON HIS WRX WITH WTFBBQ ALLOY PADS, SUPERBUTTSEKS INCREDITAINIUM LINES AND CHUCK NORRIS BRAND FLUID AND IT STOPS WAY HARDER."

No, it doesnt. It has a lot more INITIAL BITE.
95% of people will mistake initial bite and/or decreased pedal travel, for the ability to stop shorter.

A locked tire is a locked tire. And while big brakes can lock a tire without having to push the pedal as hard, stock brakes can still lock the tires instantly if you nail the pedal. Therefor, stopping distance and rate of slowing down, is unchanged.,

So what can you do to make the car safer if you up the power?

Well, for one thing, if you are driving responsibly and within the law, why do you need to upgrade the brakes at all? Ok so obviously that is a dumb point to bring up

No but seriously, you upped the power and you want the car to be able to stop shorter

Well, as we have established, the grip of the tire on the road is the ultimate determining factor, so you want wider and or stickier tires. Preferably, both.

There is another aspect to look at too. Weight. A heavy object takes more force to accelerate or decelerate than a lighter one.

Put your car and yourself on a diet.

I think its hilarious that someone adding 50whp, and refusing to upgrade the brakes, is shunned and flamed, yet someone adding 200lbs of stereo gear/other things, no one even mentions the brakes. Rest assured that 200lbs of weight WILL increase stopping distance measureably.

Handling, thats another story altogether. A car that handles better is always safer than one that doesnt. In fact if you are so worried about safety, handling should be your first priority. Guess where the very first place you should look when it comes to handling Yup, those same black round things that will make you stop shorter.

This is a bit of a mind dump, so forgive me if it jumps around a bit or if I missed something or repeated myself.

Ill add more or edit it as needed when I get a minute.
You are my hero... Just sayin'
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Old 06-25-2013, 02:08 PM   #554
viper2788
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lol I've seen so many car reviews that state "the large 4 piston brembos help the xyz stop from 60mph to zero in just xxxft!"
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Old 06-25-2013, 10:14 PM   #555
ohfiverex
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great read, one of the first things I was looking into with my WRX was break upgrades, maybe I'll just used some caliper paint on them to make them look a little nicer and keep them stock with slotted rotors.
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Old 06-29-2013, 12:20 AM   #556
M.Kavanaugh
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Default Rear Brake Calipers

So I took off my rear brake calipers and there are 4 pieces between both sides. One piece is the part that holds the brake fluid and has the bleeder on it. There are different numbers on each one. I am unsure which one goes on which side. Does it matter? If so which one goes on which side? All the numbers on each of the two are the same except one number; one says '2' and the other says '6'.
I am also unsure about the brackets holding the pads; which one goes on which side? Or can ether one go on ether side? Each have one number on them that is different just like the other part.
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Old 06-29-2013, 12:46 PM   #557
BLACK_MAMBA
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This seriously makes me consider getting new brakes....
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Old 07-20-2013, 04:29 PM   #558
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Have posted a thread on Scoobynet about brakes... http://bbs.scoobynet.com/scoobynet-g...er-brakes.html

this thread came up and made a good read, thank you
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:36 PM   #559
anthonym0312
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinter View Post
Stock brakes should be able to lock up any street tire.
Agreed
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:37 PM   #560
anthonym0312
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Yesss
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Old 07-23-2013, 11:38 PM   #561
anthonym0312
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Nevermind
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Old 07-27-2013, 04:24 PM   #562
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I've always been a fan of ceramic pads (Parts house specials, woo!) paired with bone stock rotors. The only time I've wanted more pad was when I took my Camry to a local road course (well... Not so local anymore, I live 5 hours away now!) and started getting some severe fade a couple hours in; however, it was a couple hours of hard track driving. In any other situation, stock brakes are perfectly fine. Cars generally speaking have tens of thousands of hours put into their design, I hardly see why we are in a position to assume we know better about what brakes should be on the vehicle.
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Old 08-20-2013, 01:17 PM   #563
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Awesome thread.
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Old 08-31-2013, 12:23 AM   #564
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Thank you again. This is the second one of these in a row that I have read now and all the way dumbs it down. Not only informative but a little bit entertaining. I work on trucks for a living and it just takes a lot of common sense. Its starting to show true for working on these cars. I'm new to the boosted car scene so I still got a lot to learn..... Good write up thanks again.
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Old 09-04-2013, 08:40 AM   #565
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Quote:
Originally Posted by alltracscoobie View Post
I've always been a fan of ceramic pads (Parts house specials, woo!) paired with bone stock rotors. The only time I've wanted more pad was when I took my Camry to a local road course (well... Not so local anymore, I live 5 hours away now!) and started getting some severe fade a couple hours in; however, it was a couple hours of hard track driving. In any other situation, stock brakes are perfectly fine. Cars generally speaking have tens of thousands of hours put into their design, I hardly see why we are in a position to assume we know better about what brakes should be on the vehicle.
And upgrades are never engineered.
Changing brakes does make sense if you don't intend to use the car as originally designed. But you have a point. If you are always tracking your car, you might not want a Camry.
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Old 09-06-2013, 12:00 AM   #566
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Everything in this article is reminding me of both physics 1 and dynamics 1...
great write up though!
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Old 09-21-2013, 03:05 AM   #567
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Awesome write up you hit the nail on the head on this one
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Old 09-21-2013, 04:05 AM   #568
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http://www.caranddriver.com/features...rx-3166-page-4

Quote:
The latest [2009] WRX... equals the quarter-mile time (13.5 seconds) of the STI, and is 2.4 seconds quicker around the Virginia racetrack than the STI we lapped in 2008.

Despite outshining the STI, the WRX laps didn’t go without a little fear and loathing. After one hot lap, early braking at the end of the front straight suggested the binders had perhaps taken the rest of the day off. Brake fade was severe enough that the pedal would sink nearly all the way to the floor, making heel-and-toe downshifting impossible. So we pumped worriedly on the brakes with the left foot, tried to match the revs with the right foot, and with no feet left with which to operate the clutch, simply attempted to time the gearshifts just right.

Last edited by Garandman; 09-21-2013 at 04:11 AM.
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Old 10-03-2013, 07:27 AM   #569
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Good Stuff!
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Old 10-19-2013, 02:47 AM   #570
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haha, i just bought brembos - and soon rotors, but i will get wheels and great rubber that fits! but yeah, an expensive cosmetic mod
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Old 10-19-2013, 01:36 PM   #571
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You just saved me a lot of money!!! I know somebody in the last 20 some pages of this post has already said that but your post is the gift that keeps on giving. Thank you.
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Old 10-20-2013, 07:13 PM   #572
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Agreed, good post!
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Old 10-30-2013, 11:26 AM   #573
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I actually thought upgraded brakes helped stop but stickier tires make sense. my pads and rotors are worn out and therefore me attempting to come to a stop at higher speeds is a bit harder. your also saving lot of people money if they actually listen to this post.
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Old 10-31-2013, 03:24 PM   #574
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Most excellent.
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Old 11-25-2013, 04:03 PM   #575
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Default Very helpful

Thanks for the post.
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