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Old 11-12-2013, 02:31 PM   #776
Boosted Tuning
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being an idoit.
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Last edited by Boosted Tuning; 11-12-2013 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 11-12-2013, 02:38 PM   #777
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phatron View Post
the cost of entry is still pretty damn high. my dyno payment is 3x my mortgage.
Just saw that you got a dyno recently. Congrats.
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Old 11-12-2013, 02:57 PM   #778
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted Tuning View Post
Its not "MBC only" when spooling. Since the boost pressure is going to both the MBC and the EBC, and the EBC has some duty cycle (air leaking), it lets air bleed, slowing spool. If it was in series, then it would be MBC only, till it got to the MBCs opening point.
If done correctly, it IS MBC only. Between switching back and forth between hybrid and MBC-only and more than a few cars, we have not noticed any difference in spool due to any 'leaking' with the EBCS at 100%.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted Tuning View Post
Even on a larger turbo, that can efficiently run higher boost in the higher RPMs, you still may see taper. It may be because of a weak WGA spring, a weak MBC spring, intake restriction, etc. So "forcing" a turbo to stay up there is not always counterproductive.
Better parts might be in need, or you're just running that larger turbo out of steam too. You can do that...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted Tuning View Post
You can eliminate MBC taper by using WGA tuning methods and certain porting methods.
And here I thought you had something specifically related to the MBC...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted Tuning View Post
To run hybrid in series, you run it like so....

Boost source>>>>>>MBC>>>>>3 Port>>>>>>WGA

To tune, you just use the MBC for your "base" boost curve, then use the 3port to customize the boost curve or eliminate taper
I understand how it's setup. Why bother with the MBC in that situation?
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Old 11-12-2013, 03:13 PM   #779
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being an idoit.

Last edited by Boosted Tuning; 11-12-2013 at 03:57 PM.
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Old 11-12-2013, 03:21 PM   #780
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Originally Posted by Boosted Tuning View Post
Last, why are you afraid of ptfb?? Back in the day, people used to be scared of it. But now, if you can tune your car properly, ptfb is nothing to worry about.
I don't think it's an issue of being "afraid" of PTFB, it's just that PTFB is annoying and completely unnecessary and often counterproductive. I think there is still some risk of excessive turbo heat too when the throttle plate isn't fully open...but I'm not a technical genius in this conversation.

I think we can all agree that on paper, hybrid boost control in parallel is superior to either boost control solution alone. Whether one realizes the benefits depends on a few factors but mainly your ability to set it up correctly and tune in a away that maximizes the benefits of the system. There really aren't any drawbacks to hybrid boost control (besides a bit more expense) if setup properly. At 100% throttle, the WGDC should be set at 100% which means only the MBC will interact with the WG...
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Old 11-12-2013, 03:26 PM   #781
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IF it's actually leaking at 100%, we cannot tell the difference at all.

How does it reduce PTFB without reducing spool? To put it in simple terms, if you run it in parallel and set everything under WOT to 0%, you'll be at the mercy of your WG spring. It will spool just fine without allowing you to go over the spring pressure. At that point, you can use the EBCS to start directing flow back and forth to the MBC and WG to achieve desired boost. Spool is just fine with this setup, done correctly... fact.

You did mention how turbo can taper without running out of steam and I have responded to it specifically. Please, don't repeat it and I have plenty of experience brosef.

Using an EBCS alone can remove the boost taper your after eliminating. I fail to see how it is much better running it in series when you give up all the additional control and safety that this thread discusses for many, many pages. You might as well forgo the MBC all together...

I've run a large number of cars in parallel and have yet to have an issue or complaint about slower spool. One STi wagons I have running out here that has kept a parallel hybrid setup over switching to straight MBC has a harder time NOT spooling the turbo, in any gear. Here in almost 2014, give it another try and make sure you're configuring it correctly [re: spool].

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted Tuning
It seems like this forum is all about arguing and trying to say/show your smarter then the other person. Then you guys wonder why tuners dont really wanna post info and tips. Because they dont wanna deal with arguing with people.
Do you want to be the pot, or the kettle? Seriously.

Last edited by yamahaSHO; 11-12-2013 at 03:31 PM.
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Old 11-12-2013, 03:39 PM   #782
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Originally Posted by Boosted Tuning View Post
In parallel, running ANY duty cycle (1%-100%), means the solenoid is bleeding air and therefore, slowing spool. Thats a fact.
I don't mean to be argumentative but this makes me think you don't quite understand the concept, no offense. In my understanding anyway, below the cracking point of the MBC, the EBC is fully controlling boost via WGDC so you're spooling as fast as a 3-port can at part throttle (since the MBC isn't bleeding pressure, it's out of the equation). Why do you need lightning boost response at part throttle? Unless you're targeting full boost at partial throttle (again why...) your boost response is going to be quite fast since you're not targeting everything the turbo has to give...

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Originally Posted by Boosted Tuning View Post
Also, how does it reduce ptfb, if it doesnt reduce boost and slow spool? lol.
It reduces PTFB because at part throttle values, the ECU is able to control and set boost targets based on tables. Again, it's going to react as fast as any 3-port would with proper tuning...Where it DOESN'T slow spool is full throttle since the 3-port is out of the equation and the MBC is providing all the WG control. At 100% throttle, it's safe to assume you're asking the turbo to give you everything it's got (up to your target boost).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted Tuning View Post
Doesnt matter if its directly related to the MBC or not. Using my methods, I can eliminate/reduce MBC tapering.
Again, this seems completely counter-productive because ultimately you're still relying on the EBC to control boost right? If you aren't exposing the WG to either source at the same time (parallel), allowing the control method that's targeting the least amount of boost to "win control", then you've just introduced 2 systems to fight against each other in my estimation (haven't tried it myself no).

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted Tuning View Post
I tested parallel boost back in 06. It was setup the same exact way as in the first post of this thread. Sorry, cant remember the ECU settings I exactly used, but I played with it for a couple weeks.
If you can't remember what ECU settings you would have used, again this makes me think you didn't fully understand how to tune this properly. The ECU settings are pretty easy to understand as you're simply deciding when you want the MBC to control boost and everything else is just 3-port tuning as normal...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted Tuning View Post
Because running a MBC is the fastest spooling boost control method.
Which is why parallel control allows the MBC to control boost when you NEED the fastest spool possible, full throttle (although you can set your map so that the MBC has control at any TPS you wish...)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boosted Tuning View Post
It seems like this forum is all about arguing and trying to say/show your smarter then the other person. Then you guys wonder why tuners dont really wanna post info and tips. Because they dont wanna deal with arguing with people.
I hope it's not about arguing who's smarter because I wouldn't win. It's easy to defend the concept when people post things that just don't make sense though...I guess this can seem argumentative.
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Old 11-12-2013, 03:56 PM   #783
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okay, so I made a fool of myself. Dont know if it was the busy late night or lack of sleep and busy morning, but I was thinking of this totally backwards and am wrong. You guys are right. It doesnt affect spool with it at 100%. I dont know why I was thinking like an idiot. Guess I was just having a blonde moment.

ADD: I personally dont like hybrid boost in either form, as I always try to practice KISS (Keep is super simple). I prefer just a MBC or just a 3port. But some EVO guys are gettin some great results running hybrid in series.

Last edited by Boosted Tuning; 11-12-2013 at 04:02 PM.
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Old 11-12-2013, 04:02 PM   #784
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Originally Posted by Boosted Tuning View Post
okay, so I made a fool of myself. Dont know if it was the busy late night or lack of sleep and busy morning, but I was thinking of this totally backwards and am wrong. You guys are right. It doesnt affect spool with it at 100%. I dont know why I was thinking like an idiot. Guess I was just having a blonde moment.

ADD: I personally dont like hybrid boost in either form, as I always try to practice KISS (Keep is super simple). I prefer just a MBC or just a 3port. But EVO guys are great some good results running hybrid in series.
Haha, no worries man. You're allowed to be wrong, you should just expect the internet to remind you is all...
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Old 11-13-2013, 04:01 PM   #785
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seems i missed the show!

anyway, there is a way to reduce the "taper" of holding peak boost to a higher mass air flow range, without an ebc.

let's consider a system in which it is wastegate pressure only... no solenoid, no mbc, just a hose. simple.

under "normal" operation the wastegate signal is sourced from the compressor nipple. the wastegate will open when the outlet pressure at the nipple is sufficient to overcome the spring tension in the actuator. once the turbo is spooled up, the wastegate will attempt to keep the pressure at that nipple at one value.

now, by removing the pressure source from the compressor outlet nipple, and relocating it further "downstream," the wastegate will attempt to keep THAT pressure source at one value.

let's say you relocate it to a point after the intercooler core. the wastegate will now keep the pressure at that point, post IC, the same. you have basically eliminated the pressure drop across the core.

of course you haven't magically made yourself a lossless IC--you're going to work the turbo harder by keeping the wastegate closed more for a given mass air flow. the compressor outlet pressure has gone up at the nipple so that you net a higher pressure further downstream. whether or not this results in more torque is up for the datalogs and dynos to decide.

all an EBC or MBC does is clamp or restrict or offset the pressure signal, so re-adding them to the system does not change the above description.
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Old 11-13-2013, 08:59 PM   #786
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For those using this method, are you able to hold full boost in 1st and 2nd gear?
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:24 AM   #787
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That completely depends on what turbo you're running. A smaller turbo like a td04 can still peak and fall off in lower gears where as a gt35 may not even hit peak boost until redline.
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:26 AM   #788
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Double post

Last edited by JMlegacy; 12-10-2013 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:31 AM   #789
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I couldn't hit 16PSI in 1st gear on my TD04 (ej205) even with a straight MBC and a killer tune. I think I hit 12 or 13?
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Old 11-14-2013, 01:34 AM   #790
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I was just making a broad generalization to get the point across that there isn't a simple answer.
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Old 11-14-2013, 08:19 AM   #791
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Quote:
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I couldn't hit 16PSI in 1st gear on my TD04 (ej205) even with a straight MBC and a killer tune. I think I hit 12 or 13?
that's pretty odd.

on the way into work this morning i hit 24psi with a vf23, 1st gear rolling start.

i didn't bother trying with launch control...
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Old 11-14-2013, 10:50 AM   #792
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I hit 17.5 PSI in first gear on vf34 on 2.0, but tapers to 14 no matter what. 2nd gear is better, 3rd holds out 14.5 at redline. I was just wondering if a MBC hybrid could yield more boost in lower gears....
Guess it's just something i have to live with then because of the low engine load in those gears

Last edited by JMlegacy; 12-10-2013 at 12:38 PM.
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Old 03-04-2014, 05:27 PM   #793
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Reading through some of this thread I'm more confused on if this is a good idea or not than before I started... Lmfao. I already have a Grimmspeed MBC & EBCS (bought the MBC before I thought I was getting a tune) and I'm getting a full EMS tune... Now I want to know if it's a good idea to run both of these in the parallel set up, but with so much arguing going on I have no idea lol.
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Old 03-04-2014, 05:39 PM   #794
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My 2 cents...if you get a good tuner and they can get your EBCS working well, just stick with that.

If you're really into tuning the car yourself and want to tinker, try a hybrid setup, etc., and you do all the research on how to tune with that set up (or any set up for that matter), then sure, go for it. (Of course you do so at your own risk! ;-)

In your case, I'd just have the tuner tune it with EBCS and be done with it ;-)

NOTE: I always tell people that no matter who tunes it, learn how to log and check for knock yourself (even if you don't want to learn how to tune). LittleBlue on LegacyGT.com has a great sticky on how to check for knock.
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Old 03-04-2014, 05:50 PM   #795
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Reading through some of this thread I'm more confused on if this is a good idea or not than before I started... Lmfao. I already have a Grimmspeed MBC & EBCS (bought the MBC before I thought I was getting a tune) and I'm getting a full EMS tune... Now I want to know if it's a good idea to run both of these in the parallel set up, but with so much arguing going on I have no idea lol.
dispel any thought in your head that it is a "bad idea..."

if anyone says that to you, steer clear of them, because they have their heads up their ass and don't understand boost control systems.

at WORST it is unnecessary.

but all a tuner has to do is make sure max wgdc is set to 100 for the top TPS column, and set the target boost for the top TPS column to something silly high. like 35psig.

EVERYTHING ELSE is the same as before.

i have only added a bleed hole to my setup in the last 10 years (when i pulled out my utec and went straight carberry on oem ecu).

everything else is exactly the way you saw it in post 1.
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Old 03-04-2014, 06:06 PM   #796
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dispel any thought in your head that it is a "bad idea..."

if anyone says that to you, steer clear of them, because they have their heads up their ass and don't understand boost control systems.

at WORST it is unnecessary.

but all a tuner has to do is make sure max wgdc is set to 100 for the top TPS column, and set the target boost for the top TPS column to something silly high. like 35psig.
EVERYTHING ELSE is the same as before.

i have only added a bleed hole to my setup in the last 10 years (when i pulled out my utec and went straight carberry on oem ecu).

everything else is exactly the way you saw it in post 1.
I generally keep my WOT boost target 1-2 PSI above what I'm actually running. Other than catastrophic failure of the boost control system, the EBCS can be used to lower boost in a situation that nets you "overboost" for an extended period of time.
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Old 03-04-2014, 06:29 PM   #797
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not a bad idea, and that's enough boost error to keep the wg at 100%.

that's really all you have to do to make sure it's all MBC!
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Old 03-05-2014, 11:58 AM   #798
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Ok thanks I was about to sell my MBC but now I'll keep it
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Old 03-05-2014, 12:22 PM   #799
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Wait, my EMS is going to have 3D boost mapping & control boost in each individual gear. Will this set up still work?
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Old 03-05-2014, 01:07 PM   #800
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Yes. Max boost will be capped by the MBC and the EBCS can be used to lower boost. How much power are you running to care about this on an AWD car?
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