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Old 12-30-2013, 01:30 PM   #1
AVANTI R5
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Default Toyota, BMW Sports Car Platform Agreed on: Report




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The much-hyped BMW and Toyota sports car collaboration is moving closer to being a reality according to a new report.

In June, 2012, the companies announced an agreement to collaborate on lithium-air batteries and lightweight vehicle technology. At the time, the brand spoke of possible plans to work together in building the platform for a mid-sized sports car. Now a report from Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung is quoting BMW development chief Herbert Diess saying the brands “have agreed on a joint architecture for a sports car,” adding that they will be two different vehicles authentic to their respective brands.

Many have speculated that for Toyota, the project will birth a spiritual successor to the Supra (above). Production of the Japanese rear-wheel drive sports car ended in 2002. Toyota introduced the FR-S under its Scion brand for North America last year, but the Subaru-Toyota lovechild leaves space for a larger, more powerful and more expensive performance product.

Diess declined to provide details on the models that will be built as a result of the project.
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Old 12-30-2013, 05:56 PM   #2
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You just know a convertible is going to be an option with Toyota involved (after the BRZ convertible back and forth) and given BMW's history with convertibles.
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Old 12-30-2013, 07:55 PM   #3
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Whatever it is, I think Toyota would be stupid to call it a Supra. I doubt it is going to live up to those kind of expectations.
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Old 12-30-2013, 08:54 PM   #4
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FR-S with the N54 engine in it please.
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:32 PM   #5
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This is probably one of the reasons you don't hear Subaru and Toyota making joint statements on the BRZ/FR-S twins as much as they used to. Toyota found a more interesting partner to dance with at the sports car prom.
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:40 PM   #6
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Originally Posted by sir_wagon View Post
This is probably one of the reasons you don't hear Subaru and Toyota making joint statements on the BRZ/FR-S twins as much as they used to. Toyota found a more interesting partner to dance with at the sports car prom.
Hype is all about marketing and image. You don't "hype" up a car you've finished unveiling. Unless you're Honda and Acura trying to sell the CrossTour and ZDX (which is dying off anyways), lol.
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Old 12-30-2013, 09:51 PM   #7
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This is probably one of the reasons you don't hear Subaru and Toyota making joint statements on the BRZ/FR-S twins as much as they used to. Toyota found a more interesting partner to dance with at the sports car prom.
I disagree. I don't think the twins will be in the same market as this proposed car. Here is why:

1) Toyota will have a Supra type car in the RC-F that will be revealed in 2 weeks in Detroit. It won't be a turbo 6 cylinder, but it will have a [supposedly] 460hp V8.
2) As far as something more affordable, like a Mustang fighter for Toyota? The problem with that is that BMW already has plenty of coupes smaller and larger than the Mustang. The 2 series and 4 series are already developed, so BMW doesn't gain much from this relationship other than being contracted to build a car if that is the case. I don't get the impression that this is like when GM took a WRX and slapped a new nose and interior on it to fill a gap in Saab's lineup. The mustang fighter scenario is just that.
3) Roadster? The drop top of the twins has been canned due to cost. Maybe the next gen Z4 platform is shared with BMW and Lexus sharing a lot less than the Subyota does? This is probably the 2nd most likely scenario, IMO.
4) Subaru is a better fit for the less expensive, light weight sporty side. Subaru and Toyota have built a great sports car platform and I think both see the possibilities of where it can go. Subaru won't be offering a RWD sedan any time soon, but I think that Toyota would love to use the platform to build a sedan. This is basically a win win for Subaru and Toyota. Subaru gets to keep their AWD lineup while spreading some of the cost over to more cars. Toyota gets some additional fun in their lineup without having to hack an IS down to make it (where the IS is already a smaller GS).

I honestly think they are going to develop an Aston Martin type car together. A $150k range car that walks the line between a GT, a sports car, and an exotic. That is something that neither company really can afford to do alone as shown by the LFA. The i8 doesn't fit that mold despite probably having the requisite performance chops. So, yeah, my thinking is that it has little to do with the twins and is on the completely other side of the spectrum.

Last edited by quentinberg007; 12-30-2013 at 09:56 PM.
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:16 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by quentinberg007 View Post
I disagree. I don't think the twins will be in the same market as this proposed car. Here is why:

1) Toyota will have a Supra type car in the RC-F that will be revealed in 2 weeks in Detroit. It won't be a turbo 6 cylinder, but it will have a [supposedly] 460hp V8.
2) As far as something more affordable, like a Mustang fighter for Toyota? The problem with that is that BMW already has plenty of coupes smaller and larger than the Mustang. The 2 series and 4 series are already developed, so BMW doesn't gain much from this relationship other than being contracted to build a car if that is the case. I don't get the impression that this is like when GM took a WRX and slapped a new nose and interior on it to fill a gap in Saab's lineup. The mustang fighter scenario is just that.
3) Roadster? The drop top of the twins has been canned due to cost. Maybe the next gen Z4 platform is shared with BMW and Lexus sharing a lot less than the Subyota does? This is probably the 2nd most likely scenario, IMO.
4) Subaru is a better fit for the less expensive, light weight sporty side. Subaru and Toyota have built a great sports car platform and I think both see the possibilities of where it can go. Subaru won't be offering a RWD sedan any time soon, but I think that Toyota would love to use the platform to build a sedan. This is basically a win win for Subaru and Toyota. Subaru gets to keep their AWD lineup while spreading some of the cost over to more cars. Toyota gets some additional fun in their lineup without having to hack an IS down to make it (where the IS is already a smaller GS).

I honestly think they are going to develop an Aston Martin type car together. A $150k range car that walks the line between a GT, a sports car, and an exotic. That is something that neither company really can afford to do alone as shown by the LFA. The i8 doesn't fit that mold despite probably having the requisite performance chops. So, yeah, my thinking is that it has little to do with the twins and is on the completely other side of the spectrum.
I agree with everything you have said but would add, IMO, that the Subaru/Toyota GT86 partnership could be going their own ways after the initial agreement runs out. Toyota(might be all rumors) has been really rattling the cage recently about a different power plant and sedan, possibly an inline 4(turbo). Also, has anyone ever heard anything from Subaru about any changes to future 86s other than the Shooting Brake concept and that STI thingy in Japan? Like I said, my opinion, and as you all know I am wrong most of the time.
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Old 12-31-2013, 09:53 AM   #9
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I agree with everything you have said but would add, IMO, that the Subaru/Toyota GT86 partnership could be going their own ways after the initial agreement runs out. Toyota(might be all rumors) has been really rattling the cage recently about a different power plant and sedan, possibly an inline 4(turbo). Also, has anyone ever heard anything from Subaru about any changes to future 86s other than the Shooting Brake concept and that STI thingy in Japan? Like I said, my opinion, and as you all know I am wrong most of the time.
Subaru is pretty secretive in general. I think Toyota sees bigger potential for expanding the platform than Subaru, hence the rumors out of the Toyota camp versus the Subaru camp.

Honestly, I see this partnering up becoming the norm for anything niche.
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Old 12-31-2013, 12:53 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by subydude View Post
FR-S with the N54 engine in it please.
That'll do.


I was thinking this was going to fill, say, the M-coupe roll in the BMW lineup...but after reading the above, you may be right. Could be a six-figure sports car.
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Old 12-31-2013, 01:08 PM   #11
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Is this this story related to the "BMW to use FRS chassis" article? Didn't Subaru design/engineer most of chassis of the BRZ/FRS? If so what would Toyota have to offer BMW outside of the Subaru designed/engineered chassis?

http://wot.motortrend.com/we-hear-bm...ra-377781.html

http://www.caranddriver.com/features...ntrast-feature
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Old 01-02-2014, 09:19 AM   #12
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It will end this way.... "a facelifted/debaged" lexus RC/F with bmw S55 engine... maybe because toyota want to revive the twin turbo inline-6 heritage.
S55 is already up to par and meet europe emissions laws, right??
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:16 AM   #13
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I want to see a new SC430, or at least that type of car.

Something like a big, V8, Z4 type car. I never really liked the 6 series convertible.
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Old 01-02-2014, 10:42 AM   #14
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Who cares? The 'BMW' name adds $10,000 to the price of anything that will come of this so it will be too expensive to anyone but car mags and douche bags.
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Old 01-02-2014, 11:53 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by Yotsuya View Post
Who cares? The 'BMW' name adds $10,000 to the price of anything that will come of this so it will be too expensive to anyone but car mags and douche bags.
Not entirely. If they can develope a car that competes with the gtr and offered at or around the same price tag, it would do great.
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Old 01-02-2014, 01:41 PM   #16
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FR-S with the N54 engine in it please.
No, we don't want actual HPFP issues.
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Old 01-02-2014, 02:30 PM   #17
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The Axis powers are collaborating again? This won't end well.
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Old 01-02-2014, 02:31 PM   #18
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Not entirely. If they can develop a car that competes with the gtr and offered at or around the same price tag, it would do great.
Okay, I'll grant a car like that has some gravitas. But I don't see Toyota or BMW taking that approach, together or separately. The closest either came was the LFA.
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Old 01-03-2014, 03:32 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by quentinberg007 View Post
I disagree. I don't think the twins will be in the same market as this proposed car. Here is why:

1) Toyota will have a Supra type car in the RC-F that will be revealed in 2 weeks in Detroit. It won't be a turbo 6 cylinder, but it will have a [supposedly] 460hp V8.
2) As far as something more affordable, like a Mustang fighter for Toyota? The problem with that is that BMW already has plenty of coupes smaller and larger than the Mustang. The 2 series and 4 series are already developed, so BMW doesn't gain much from this relationship other than being contracted to build a car if that is the case. I don't get the impression that this is like when GM took a WRX and slapped a new nose and interior on it to fill a gap in Saab's lineup. The mustang fighter scenario is just that.
3) Roadster? The drop top of the twins has been canned due to cost. Maybe the next gen Z4 platform is shared with BMW and Lexus sharing a lot less than the Subyota does? This is probably the 2nd most likely scenario, IMO.
4) Subaru is a better fit for the less expensive, light weight sporty side. Subaru and Toyota have built a great sports car platform and I think both see the possibilities of where it can go. Subaru won't be offering a RWD sedan any time soon, but I think that Toyota would love to use the platform to build a sedan. This is basically a win win for Subaru and Toyota. Subaru gets to keep their AWD lineup while spreading some of the cost over to more cars. Toyota gets some additional fun in their lineup without having to hack an IS down to make it (where the IS is already a smaller GS).

I honestly think they are going to develop an Aston Martin type car together. A $150k range car that walks the line between a GT, a sports car, and an exotic. That is something that neither company really can afford to do alone as shown by the LFA. The i8 doesn't fit that mold despite probably having the requisite performance chops. So, yeah, my thinking is that it has little to do with the twins and is on the completely other side of the spectrum.
I too am a bit confused by this relationship. BMW already has plenty of coupes. The 435i and M4 are basically updated Supras. I'm not sure about the Aston-esque car either, BMW already makes the M6, is there really a market above that?

I think the Z4 replacement is the most likely candidate. That's still above the twins market wise, and with the 1 & 2 series going FWD soon, the Z4 may be loosing it's volume platform development mate.
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Old 01-03-2014, 04:01 PM   #20
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Let's hope it's toyota price and reliability with bmw performance instead of bmw price and reliability with toyota performance.

*In regards to performance, I mean as of late wherein toyota has no actual performance vehicles.
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Old 01-03-2014, 04:02 PM   #21
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No, we don't want actual HPFP issues.
Doesn't the twin car use a HPFP already with returnless system?
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Old 01-03-2014, 04:03 PM   #22
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Not entirely. If they can develope a car that competes with the gtr and offered at the original gtr price tag, it would do great.
Fix'd
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Old 01-03-2014, 04:54 PM   #23
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Doesn't the twin car use a HPFP already with returnless system?
Yes.. but it's riddled with "not real" issues like squeaking loudly at idle whenever you use E10 (ie: normal) gas. Not "real" issues like warrantied gradual failures at 60k miles.
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Old 01-05-2014, 10:48 AM   #24
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Nevermind. Stupid me...
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Old 01-13-2014, 11:08 AM   #25
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