Welcome to the North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club Tuesday September 2, 2014
Home Forums WikiNASIOC Products Store Modifications Upgrade Garage
Click here to visit TireRack
Brakes & Suspension Forum sponsored by The Tire Rack

Losing traction? Need new tires?
Click here to visit the NASIOC Upgrade Garage...
Here you can view your subscribed threads, work with private messages and edit your profile and preferences Home Registration is free! Visit the NASIOC Store NASIOC Rules Search Find other members Frequently Asked Questions Calendar Archive NASIOC Upgrade Garage Logout
Go Back   NASIOC > NASIOC Technical > Brakes, Steering & Suspension

Welcome to NASIOC - The world's largest online community for Subaru enthusiasts!
Welcome to the NASIOC.com Subaru forum.

You are currently viewing our forum as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community, free of charge, you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is free, fast and simple, so please join our community today!

If you have any problems with the registration process or your account login, please contact us.
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 03-02-2014, 08:33 AM   #1
aggie113
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 146311
Join Date: Apr 2007
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: San Antonio, TX
Vehicle:
Saab '05 HTA68 Built
2.5L E85 6MT > STI :)

OMGHi2U Jspeed fender brace f up?

OK, so I'm trying to find out if I f'd up my Jspeed fender brace install or not. Someone else mentioned I should have reused the stock braces on top of the jspeed ones. Is this correct or not?
Pic:
* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.
aggie113 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2014, 08:43 AM   #2
Psychoreo
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 79643
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Cromwell
Vehicle:
2015 WRX STI
Terminal black pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by aggie113 View Post
OK, so I'm trying to find out if I f'd up my Jspeed fender brace install or not. Someone else mentioned I should have reused the stock braces on top of the jspeed ones. Is this correct or not?
Pic:
Stock ones go in the trash.
Psychoreo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2014, 09:43 AM   #3
A-man07
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 271525
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: BagEnd
Vehicle:
07 STi
424whp/382wtq GT3076

Default

Hmmm...odd design but they look correctly installed. The TiC braces definitely the best.
A-man07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2014, 11:33 AM   #4
aggie113
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 146311
Join Date: Apr 2007
Chapter/Region: TXIC
Location: San Antonio, TX
Vehicle:
Saab '05 HTA68 Built
2.5L E85 6MT > STI :)

Default

Doh! Looks like the fenders are coming back off
aggie113 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-02-2014, 02:23 PM   #5
Spoolsworth
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 379437
Join Date: Jan 2014
Chapter/Region: RMIC
Location: Central Utah
Vehicle:
2006 Limited WRX
OBP

Default

I fail to see how the OEM brace on that would do anything... My 2 is don't worry about it
Spoolsworth is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 12:05 PM   #6
Scoobiesdoobies
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 321546
Join Date: May 2012
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca
Vehicle:
2006 Wrx Limited
OBP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A-man07 View Post
Hmmm...odd design but they look correctly installed. The TiC braces definitely the best.
Tics are ok. I have some one piece milled alum ones from creative werkz that are by far way more stiff and more resistant to flex.
Scoobiesdoobies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 01:46 PM   #7
A-man07
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 271525
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: BagEnd
Vehicle:
07 STi
424whp/382wtq GT3076

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobiesdoobies View Post
Tics are ok. I have some one piece milled alum ones from creative werkz that are by far way more stiff and more resistant to flex.
Pic please...
A-man07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 03:28 PM   #8
PARANOID56
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 22035
Join Date: Jul 2002
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
2003 Brocoma DCab
71 FJ40, 13 DRZ400SM

Default

thats a really odd way to do it, with adding back in the stock brace
PARANOID56 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 04:37 PM   #9
Scoobiesdoobies
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 321546
Join Date: May 2012
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca
Vehicle:
2006 Wrx Limited
OBP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by A-man07 View Post

Pic please...
http://www.creativewerksinc.com/prod...ts-subaru.html

I think they go for a lil cheaper than tic too.
Scoobiesdoobies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 05:05 PM   #10
A-man07
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 271525
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: BagEnd
Vehicle:
07 STi
424whp/382wtq GT3076

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobiesdoobies View Post
http://www.creativewerksinc.com/prod...ts-subaru.html

I think they go for a lil cheaper than tic too.
Meh...6 of one half dozen of the other.
A-man07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 05:09 PM   #11
mitch808
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 10228
Join Date: Sep 2001
Vehicle:
2002 Subaru WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobiesdoobies View Post
Tics are ok. I have some one piece milled alum ones from creative werkz that are by far way more stiff and more resistant to flex.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Scoobiesdoobies View Post
http://www.creativewerksinc.com/prod...ts-subaru.html

I think they go for a lil cheaper than tic too.
I bet you, nor either manufacturer can verify those claims.


Either way, both products are great for what they were designed for. However, one is a HUGE contributor this this forum, answering questions and giving unbiased reviews/options...
mitch808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-03-2014, 05:55 PM   #12
Paranoid Fabrications
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 140712
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
2008 WRX STI
White

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mitch808 View Post
I bet you, nor either manufacturer can verify those claims.


Either way, both products are great for what they were designed for. However, one is a HUGE contributor this this forum, answering questions and giving unbiased reviews/options...
I need to dig it up, but i remember a few years ago we had a guy that did fea testing on a bunch of fender braces with some neat results. will try to dig that up.

we also make them for even cheaper but i will say that almost any aftermarket fender brace (cowl stay) is going to be a huge improvement over stock.
Paranoid Fabrications is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 12:54 AM   #13
Scoobiesdoobies
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 321546
Join Date: May 2012
Chapter/Region: BAIC
Location: Santa Cruz, Ca
Vehicle:
2006 Wrx Limited
OBP

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid Fabrications View Post
I need to dig it up, but i remember a few years ago we had a guy that did fea testing on a bunch of fender braces with some neat results. will try to dig that up.

we also make them for even cheaper but i will say that almost any aftermarket fender brace (cowl stay) is going to be a huge improvement over stock.
The guy I got mine from on iclub said they were from your company, paranoid fabrications . But some diggin as to where he got his from turned up that they were identical to creative werks and I found a link on his original forum to their website. So they happened to be not from you folks. He said they were an old version that you guys made kind of as a beta testing set. And they didnt look like the newer ones. But they are identical to the creative werks.

They claim that they are better is just based on the fact that they are milled and monolithic.
Where as tic welds the tubing onto the brace mounts.
Scoobiesdoobies is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-04-2014, 11:23 AM   #14
Paranoid Fabrications
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 140712
Join Date: Feb 2007
Chapter/Region: SCIC
Location: San Diego, CA
Vehicle:
2008 WRX STI
White

Default

yea never made ones that looked like that. however the creative werks ones are a copy of the factory STI brace. (but i think the STI one is made from extruded alu)

depending on the applied force, i think they are stronger in some ways and TICs style stronger in other ways. But both are way better then stock
Paranoid Fabrications is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-05-2014, 11:02 PM   #15
Blkmgk
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 374675
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paranoid Fabrications View Post
I need to dig it up, but i remember a few years ago we had a guy that did fea testing on a bunch of fender braces with some neat results. will try to dig that up.

we also make them for even cheaper but i will say that almost any aftermarket fender brace (cowl stay) is going to be a huge improvement over stock.
I'd love to see that testing. The stock brace appears to be placed in compression\tension with bolts in shear and its made of pretty decent stamped steel - at least the pair on my car is. I'd be interested in seeing something other than seat of the pants testing to believe vast improvements. I'd certainly be putting the stock ones on in addition to the ones pictured in the first post though as it appears the brace used is meant to work in conjunction and has two bars acting in two directions other than the one the stock brace was designed for.
Blkmgk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 01:59 AM   #16
Uncle Scotty
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 16200
Join Date: Mar 2002
Vehicle:
OK Houston
we have an Uncle

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blkmgk View Post
I'd love to see that testing. The stock brace appears to be placed in compression\tension with bolts in shear and its made of pretty decent stamped steel - at least the pair on my car is. I'd be interested in seeing something other than seat of the pants testing to believe vast improvements. I'd certainly be putting the stock ones on in addition to the ones pictured in the first post though as it appears the brace used is meant to work in conjunction and has two bars acting in two directions other than the one the stock brace was designed for.

d00000000d...the stock brace is just a bit stiffer than a beer can....a strong person could almost certainly bend them up without much effort

and id like to try those jspeed ones with a good set of aftermarket ones...might be interesting
Uncle Scotty is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 09:50 AM   #17
Turn in Concepts
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blkmgk View Post
I'd love to see that testing. The stock brace appears to be placed in compression\tension with bolts in shear and its made of pretty decent stamped steel - at least the pair on my car is. I'd be interested in seeing something other than seat of the pants testing to believe vast improvements. I'd certainly be putting the stock ones on in addition to the ones pictured in the first post though as it appears the brace used is meant to work in conjunction and has two bars acting in two directions other than the one the stock brace was designed for.
I believe the FEA stuff is somewhere over on IWSTI.
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 09:26 PM   #18
mitch808
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 10228
Join Date: Sep 2001
Vehicle:
2002 Subaru WRX

Default

mitch808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-06-2014, 11:48 PM   #19
Blkmgk
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 374675
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty View Post
d00000000d...the stock brace is just a bit stiffer than a beer can....a strong person could almost certainly bend them up without much effort

and id like to try those jspeed ones with a good set of aftermarket ones...might be interesting
Dooood - the piece on my car is a stamped piece of steel not a flat sheet. You aren't going to ball it up in your hands - especially if tension and compression are used which is the loads it sees.

The FEA analysis is interesting but no one seems able to agree what stresses a car will see and in what direction. Moment force is the one test it seems to fail worst at and I think that's where a shock force pushes up, I don't understand why a flat piece is testing stronger as I'd expect ribbed steel to be stiffer. Note that he had trouble modeling the TIC brace with welds and not having it fail badly at the welds. I'd like to understand what his Stress Refined column means for the welded pieces, did he come up with a way to model with welds? If so it held up well! The moment force test is the one that stands out the most though and seems most applicable. I wish that someone had been able to measure forces acting on the car to provide a better test scenario.

Frankly the most telling thing in that thread is someone mentioning how they were unable to remove a (different) brace from their car easily with the fender braces in vs having them out. Obviously the front end sags some and the brace helps. The deformation numbers are really interesting but I don't understand why the flat piece is deforming less than the stamped in several tests. There has to be loads going on that aren't intuitive.

The piece shown in the first post here with a stock stamped steel piece ought to be plenty strong in directions other than what the stock piece was designed for and it's damned obvious that piece was designed to be used in conjunction with the stock piece.

Has anyone ever seen a stock brace bent short of an accident? Holes deformed? How exactly are they failing? Is this simply seat of the pants differences?

I'm not yet convinced that the stock one isn't doing a decent job but I'm not against making it stronger if I see a design that makes sense for a reasonable sum of money. The TIC piece at $85 made of aluminum that's not going to rust seems worthwhile for the price and I'm in the midst of pulling my fenders already for other things. Crap, I just might have to buy a set I assume they will fit a 99?
Blkmgk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 05:25 AM   #20
A-man07
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 271525
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: BagEnd
Vehicle:
07 STi
424whp/382wtq GT3076

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blkmgk View Post

Has anyone ever seen a stock brace bent short of an accident? Holes deformed? How exactly are they failing? Is this simply seat of the pants differences?

I'm not yet convinced that the stock one isn't doing a decent job but I'm not against making it stronger if I see a design that makes sense for a reasonable sum of money. The TIC piece at $85 made of aluminum that's not going to rust seems worthwhile for the price and I'm in the midst of pulling my fenders already for other things. Crap, I just might have to buy a set I assume they will fit a 99?
Replace them and you'll immediately see why we change the factory pieces.
A-man07 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 06:52 AM   #21
Psychoreo
Scooby Guru
 
Member#: 79643
Join Date: Jan 2005
Chapter/Region: NESIC
Location: Cromwell
Vehicle:
2015 WRX STI
Terminal black pearl

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Blkmgk View Post

Dooood - the piece on my car is a stamped piece of steel not a flat sheet. You aren't going to ball it up in your hands - especially if tension and compression are used which is the loads it sees.

The FEA analysis is interesting but no one seems able to agree what stresses a car will see and in what direction. Moment force is the one test it seems to fail worst at and I think that's where a shock force pushes up, I don't understand why a flat piece is testing stronger as I'd expect ribbed steel to be stiffer. Note that he had trouble modeling the TIC brace with welds and not having it fail badly at the welds. I'd like to understand what his Stress Refined column means for the welded pieces, did he come up with a way to model with welds? If so it held up well! The moment force test is the one that stands out the most though and seems most applicable. I wish that someone had been able to measure forces acting on the car to provide a better test scenario.

Frankly the most telling thing in that thread is someone mentioning how they were unable to remove a (different) brace from their car easily with the fender braces in vs having them out. Obviously the front end sags some and the brace helps. The deformation numbers are really interesting but I don't understand why the flat piece is deforming less than the stamped in several tests. There has to be loads going on that aren't intuitive.

The piece shown in the first post here with a stock stamped steel piece ought to be plenty strong in directions other than what the stock piece was designed for and it's damned obvious that piece was designed to be used in conjunction with the stock piece.

Has anyone ever seen a stock brace bent short of an accident? Holes deformed? How exactly are they failing? Is this simply seat of the pants differences?

I'm not yet convinced that the stock one isn't doing a decent job but I'm not against making it stronger if I see a design that makes sense for a reasonable sum of money. The TIC piece at $85 made of aluminum that's not going to rust seems worthwhile for the price and I'm in the midst of pulling my fenders already for other things. Crap, I just might have to buy a set I assume they will fit a 99?
I bent my cowl stays in half when I removed them. They may be stamped steel, but they are far from strong.
Psychoreo is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 05:33 PM   #22
Blkmgk
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 374675
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychoreo View Post

I bent my cowl stays in half when I removed them. They may be stamped steel, but they are far from strong.
I suspect you subjected it to loads it wasn't designed to resist. Try placing it flat against your chest, palms on the ends, and compressing it like an accordion. Also, try placing it edge on across your knee, place palms on the top edge on the ends and press down with the brace edge on against your leg. Does it bend? Try grabbing it by the ends and stretching it like a rubber band, that work? Those are the primary stresses it appears to be designed to resist. Laying it flat side against your leg and bending it will probably bend it easily despite the stamping, it doesn't appear to be designed to resist that movement - are these cars subject to that?

Regardless I have a TIC brace on the way, they're cheap enough and my fenders are off (shrug), I'll go with the herd on this one ;-)
Blkmgk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 05:40 PM   #23
mitch808
Scooby Specialist
 
Member#: 10228
Join Date: Sep 2001
Vehicle:
2002 Subaru WRX

Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Psychoreo View Post
I bent my cowl stays in half when I removed them. They may be stamped steel, but they are far from strong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blkmgk View Post
I suspect you subjected it to loads it wasn't designed to resist. Try placing it flat against your chest, palms on the ends, and compressing it like an accordion. Also, try placing it edge on across your knee, place palms on the top edge on the ends and press down with the brace edge on against your leg. Does it bend? Try grabbing it by the ends and stretching it like a rubber band, that work? Those are the primary stresses it appears to be designed to resist. Laying it flat side against your leg and bending it will probably bend it easily despite the stamping, it doesn't appear to be designed to resist that movement - are these cars subject to that?

Regardless I have a TIC brace on the way, they're cheap enough and my fenders are off (shrug), I'll go with the herd on this one ;-)

Yeah pretty much that.
mitch808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 07:20 PM   #24
Turn in Concepts
NASIOC Vendor
 
Member#: 93646
Join Date: Aug 2005
Chapter/Region: MWSOC
Vehicle:
Many Track Records
Let us help you go fast!

Default

Way back in the day we had a customer who only installed one brace and left the stock one.

He then asked people to drive his car and tell him about it. They all said if felt more solid and nimble when turning one way vs. the other.

yeah - i know it's really subjective, but regardless I though that was a pretty cool thing to do.
Turn in Concepts is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 03-07-2014, 07:40 PM   #25
Blkmgk
Scooby Newbie
 
Member#: 374675
Join Date: Nov 2013
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Turn in Concepts View Post
Way back in the day we had a customer who only installed one brace and left the stock one.

He then asked people to drive his car and tell him about it. They all said if felt more solid and nimble when turning one way vs. the other.

yeah - i know it's really subjective, but regardless I though that was a pretty cool thing to do.
Unfortunately I have little enough seat time in my car that I likely won't be able to tell the difference, the Megan coil overs nearly rattle my teeth out too and will be the next thing to go! TIC has shipped my parts and they ought to be here by Tuesday in time for me to button it all up.

Question: reading the FEA thread it sounded like the TIC braces didn't have the bolts snug in the holes, there was some slop. Any reason why I can't fashion a bushing or washer to fit the hole and better hold the brace in place? I realize they might have to be ground offset etc. but this seems like the most effective way to fit them if I'm going to goto the trouble in the first place. I understand that due to production tolerances etc. as well as model year coverage that they can't be made snug out of the box. This is going on a 99 RSTi fwiw.
Blkmgk is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 06:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Powered by Searchlight © 2014 Axivo Inc.
Copyright ©1999 - 2014, North American Subaru Impreza Owners Club, Inc.