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Old 06-10-2014, 11:44 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post

Fixed it for you.

Porsches have mediocre reliability and astronomic maintenance and repair costs.

Sub-par car found.

Many times.
Drive one.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:11 AM   #52
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Drive one.
Are you going to tell us you have driven every Porsche made and they are all amazing driving machines?

Last edited by AllAWD; 06-11-2014 at 12:17 AM.
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Old 06-11-2014, 01:46 AM   #53
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Originally Posted by gpshumway View Post
Fixed it for you.

Porsches have mediocre reliability and astronomic maintenance and repair costs.

Sub-par car found.

Many times.

If by mediocre you mean consistently top 10 among automakers, I wonder what that makes the cars that do worse.

High end dealers always cost more, but the actual part prices aren't that high. But, if you worry about maintenance, you shouldn't be buying any high-end car.

Anything else you want to be wrong about? How about that failure of a Cayenne, or how the Boxster and Cayman have diluted the brand to the point of them not being considered premium anymore?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AllAWD View Post
Are you going to tell us you have driven every Porsche made and they are all amazing driving machines?
Have you driven any of them? Have you not noticed that despite the horrible mismanagement and terrible cars they produce, they now own a controlling interest in VW and still produce highly rated and sought after cars?

Or is today like any other fact free, emotional rant filled day for you?
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Old 06-11-2014, 08:08 AM   #54
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Originally Posted by richde View Post
Have you driven any of them? Have you not noticed that despite the horrible mismanagement and terrible cars they produce, they now own a controlling interest in VW and still produce highly rated and sought after cars?

Or is today like any other fact free, emotional rant filled day for you?
There's really no need for you to **** in this thread just to get everyone to agree and justify your emotional opinions about Porsche. It's a car company. They make some good cars, they make some overpriced cars that are not as good.

Last edited by AllAWD; 06-11-2014 at 08:14 AM.
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Old 06-11-2014, 09:04 AM   #55
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Anyone that takes using a car as a car into consideration? If you don't have to drive on the street very often, live in a perfect climate and don't care about safety, then a Lotus is a good value. They're one trick ponies.



No, it depends on the car, and how far Porsche will dilute the value of the brand, something they haven't done since the '70's. Chances are slim that they'd go as far as BMW and M-B have, especially considering that people said the exact same thing about every non-911 that Porsche has made in the last two decades, only to be proven wrong time and time again.

You also forget that Porsche has consistently produced some of the best made cars available.
except for that whole intermediate shaft issue. No car company is perfect, granted, and none of them are immune to mistakes.

I agree it depends on the car, and the price. But no matter how average the numbers may turn out, a cheap Porsche will always be a ticket to the rich boys club for those with less money. This is good and bad I guess depending on what side of the coin you are on.

I have never met anybody more snobbish than the 911 bunch. They even despise other 911 owners at times. A cheaper entry into the P club may as well not even bother showing up to P car meets. The cheap seats will come at a price.
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Old 06-11-2014, 10:36 AM   #56
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Originally Posted by SoapBox View Post
Drive one.
This.

I drove a Cayman S a year or so ago and have been lusting after one ever since. I would never buy a brand new one, and I would not use it as my daily driver.
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Old 06-11-2014, 12:26 PM   #57
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Are you going to tell us you have driven every Porsche made and they are all amazing driving machines?
What the hell are you talking about?
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Old 06-11-2014, 01:23 PM   #58
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Have you not noticed that despite the horrible mismanagement and terrible cars they produce, they now own a controlling interest in VW and still produce highly rated and sought after cars?

Or is today like any other fact free, emotional rant filled day for you?
I believe VW owns Porsche.

Porsche tried to buy their way into a controlling share of VW, but the hunter became the hunted.

Quote:
Volkswagen AG purchased the remaining stake in Porsche AG equaling 100% of the shares in Porsche Zwischenholding GmbH, effectively becoming its parent company as of 1 August 2012
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group#Ownership
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Old 06-11-2014, 02:39 PM   #59
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https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motora...200322723.html

Porsche is always at the top for the best new car to buy, and doesn't even make the least reliable top ten used car list. IMS and leaky engines and electric gremlins are apparently less worse than all the rest...
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Old 06-11-2014, 02:40 PM   #60
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I believe VW owns Porsche.

Porsche tried to buy their way into a controlling share of VW, but the hunter became the hunted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Volkswagen_Group#Ownership
Porsche SE owns 50.something percent of voting shares in VW while VW owns Porsche AG.

The big picture is far different from how you perceive it.

Also, the text you "quoted" doesn't exist at that link

Quote:
Porsche SE was created in June 2007 by renaming the old Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG, and became a holding company for the families' stake in Porsche Zwischenholding GmbH (50.1%) (which in turn held 100% of the old Porsche AG) and Volkswagen AG (50.7%).[4][5] At the same time, the new Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG (Porsche AG) was created for the car manufacturing business. In August 2009, Porsche SE and Volkswagen AG reached an agreement that the car manufacturing operations of the two companies would merge in 2011, to form an "Integrated Automotive Group".[6][7] The management of Volkswagen AG, which had resisted relinquishing the power to control, agreed to be owned by Porsche SE in return for VW AG acquiring ownership of Porsche AG.

As of the end of 2013, the 50.76% control interest in VW AG is the predominant investment by Porsche SE, and Volkswagen AG in turn controls brands and companies such as Volkswagen, Audi, SEAT, Škoda, Bentley, Bugatti, Lamborghini, Porsche AG, Ducati, VW Commercial Vehicles, Scania, MAN, as well as Volkswagen Financial Services.
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Old 06-11-2014, 02:47 PM   #61
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There's really no need for you to **** in this thread just to get everyone to agree and justify your emotional opinions about Porsche. It's a car company. They make some good cars, they make some overpriced cars that are not as good.
Are you projecting again?

I suppose if their cars were overpriced, they would fail, wouldn't they?
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Old 06-11-2014, 06:46 PM   #62
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Do not underestimate the snobbery of the P badge.

My buddy wanted a cayman S for so long but ended up buying a 2013 Boss 302 instead on my recommendation. You could buy 2 Boss mustangs for the price of the cayman, and in a year, the resell on the cayman will be poo, and the mustang may as well be same.

Plus you get 400+ ponies and a great chassis
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Old 06-11-2014, 06:47 PM   #63
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If the new base convertible Porsche comes with a 225 HP engine and costs 42k dollars, it is hardly a benchmark...this will be a badge whore car, only, lets not kid ourselves.
If it's under 1,200 kilos, sign me up!

You can question my masculinity or badge whoreness all you want, a sub 2,700 pound convertible with 225hp set mid ship sounds like an absolute hoot.
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Old 06-11-2014, 07:32 PM   #64
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Do not underestimate the snobbery of the P badge.

My buddy wanted a cayman S for so long but ended up buying a 2013 Boss 302 instead on my recommendation. You could buy 2 Boss mustangs for the price of the cayman, and in a year, the resell on the cayman will be poo, and the mustang may as well be same.

Plus you get 400+ ponies and a great chassis
Because there's nothing behind the badge, right?

Oh wait, that's not true.

You weren't, by chance, drooling all over the Jag, were you? I mean, it's all about performance, right? Never mind that it's horribly overweight and only has a huge motor going for it, that's totally not badge whoring, is it?

Yet again, you're comparing vastly different cars once you look at anything other than performance...which seems to be everybody's specialty around here.
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Old 06-11-2014, 08:04 PM   #65
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I think you may be confused.

I never brought up Jags in this post. The fact that you dodged my points just shows you what you already know. 911 owners can be complete snobs. Some of them have been known to look down with disdain on Boxster owners, or cayman owners, or cayenne owners. You know this is true. Hell some of the air cooled 911 owners hate all things with radiators.

If I understand you correctly, you are under the impression that I don't think others buy entry level cars just to join the 'high end' club. Cars like the 320i, CLA are meant to get folks in the club.

But since you brought up jags, lets talk about those. The XF was made to capture people back into the jag fold. It is to my eye a beautifully done car, and having driven one, it is very special to drive as well.

I love the XF...It is a great car. Seats 5, superb interior, drives pretty well too. So yes, I was loving the jag. I do not buy cars on performance alone. Never have really. A jag is a great daily driver assuming it runs all the time.

Would I buy a 2.0 XF. No, I would not take anything other than an XFR. I think it is a cooler car than an M car or an AMG, even though they are faster.

It all goes back to value for the dollar. THE value portion again depends on the end user, as I said in my FIRST post on this. A mediocre performance car under a boxster will be Badge car, a conquest car. Now that Porsche has a family sedan and an SUV, they can play the same game BMW and Merc are. Get them in the door, and sell 'the porsche lifestyle' BS they are pitching now.

A car with low power, an iffy interior, bad dynamics (unlikely), that sells for 40k is not good value for the dollar in my book. The P car markup, is just simply not worth it.

I bet you are also in favor of the ludicrous prices long nose 911's are getting these days. Talk about a lot of money for an average car.
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Old 06-12-2014, 12:42 AM   #66
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Originally Posted by 4S-TURBO View Post
https://autos.yahoo.com/blogs/motora...200322723.html

Porsche is always at the top for the best new car to buy, and doesn't even make the least reliable top ten used car list. IMS and leaky engines and electric gremlins are apparently less worse than all the rest...
I haven't had the chance to examine their statistical methods, but a quick look at the LTQI website doesn't look good. First of all they specifically state they are focused on powertrain issues, so no wonder they don't capture the electrical stuff, then they present some really stupid graphs about the average trade-in miles and how that indicates something about quality.

Not sure why they would advise people to buy a Porsche, their quality index for Porsche as a brand is negative as is the quality index for all three Porsche models they have data for. Porsche is -1.x, contrast that with Toyota & Lexus at ~+7, which jives with my assessment of Porsche as having mediocre reliability. Not terrible (Mini is -12), but mediocre.

All of the reliability surveys have limitations, particularly comparing luxury brands to regular brands, and none of them do a good job factoring in the cost of repairs. My preferred source is Edmunds, as they use data from aftermarket warranty companies. If Consumer Report's numbers are off, almost nobody notices, if a warranty company's numbers are off they loose money.

The Edmunds True Cost to Own calculator puts the five year maintenance and repair costs for a 2008 Porsche Boxter at almost $16,000, the equivalent costs for a 2008 Honda S2000 are just over $6,000.

I stand by my statement. Sub-par car found. Anybody who's seen the inside of a 928 V8, or seen the gallon bucket full of broken power sunroof switches any 944 owner has will agree with me. Ancient history? Maybe, but I'm not spending my time finding out where the extra $9k+ goes over five years of Boxster ownership, I'll just buy the S2000.

I just wish someone else would build a decent, (mostly) affordable mid-engine sports car. Honda has made noises of reincarnating the S2000 as a mid-engine hybrid coupe, I hope they do, it has the potential to embarrass this entry level Porsche.
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Old 06-12-2014, 04:32 AM   #67
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I think you may be confused.

I never brought up Jags in this post. The fact that you dodged my points just shows you what you already know. 911 owners can be complete snobs. Some of them have been known to look down with disdain on Boxster owners, or cayman owners, or cayenne owners. You know this is true. Hell some of the air cooled 911 owners hate all things with radiators.

If I understand you correctly, you are under the impression that I don't think others buy entry level cars just to join the 'high end' club. Cars like the 320i, CLA are meant to get folks in the club.

But since you brought up jags, lets talk about those. The XF was made to capture people back into the jag fold. It is to my eye a beautifully done car, and having driven one, it is very special to drive as well.

I love the XF...It is a great car. Seats 5, superb interior, drives pretty well too. So yes, I was loving the jag. I do not buy cars on performance alone. Never have really. A jag is a great daily driver assuming it runs all the time.

Would I buy a 2.0 XF. No, I would not take anything other than an XFR. I think it is a cooler car than an M car or an AMG, even though they are faster.

It all goes back to value for the dollar. THE value portion again depends on the end user, as I said in my FIRST post on this. A mediocre performance car under a boxster will be Badge car, a conquest car. Now that Porsche has a family sedan and an SUV, they can play the same game BMW and Merc are. Get them in the door, and sell 'the porsche lifestyle' BS they are pitching now.

A car with low power, an iffy interior, bad dynamics (unlikely), that sells for 40k is not good value for the dollar in my book. The P car markup, is just simply not worth it.

I bet you are also in favor of the ludicrous prices long nose 911's are getting these days. Talk about a lot of money for an average car.
By your logic, since they were cheaper than the existing model, when the Boxster/Cayman was released, it was a badge car. But it didn't turn out that way, did it?

Flawless logic you're using, along with acting as if you've already driven the car....clearly I'm not the one confused here.

Tell us, where did the Porsche owner touch you?
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Old 06-12-2014, 05:36 AM   #68
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Old 06-12-2014, 06:19 AM   #69
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Old 06-12-2014, 08:06 AM   #70
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Porsche SE owns 50.something percent of voting shares in VW while VW owns Porsche AG.

The big picture is far different from how you perceive it.
Methinks you have no idea what I perceive and what I don't. I understand quite clearly that the Porsche holdings company (Porsche SE) owns a majority of Volkwagen AG who owns Porsche AG (the group that makes the vehicles). It is my understanding that if Porsche SE sold their shares, they would not retain control of Porsche AG. There are essentially two Porsche groups and the big picture says they aren't interchangeable, which I admittedly did myself.


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Also, the text you "quoted" doesn't exist at that link
Yes, it is.

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Old 06-12-2014, 09:53 AM   #71
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Yes, it is.
Yes it -does-?
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Old 06-12-2014, 11:48 AM   #72
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Are you projecting again?

I suppose if their cars were overpriced, they would fail, wouldn't they?
No and no. Porsche made a great business decision to sell SUVs and sedans to move more cars and thus keep the business strong. But since I can grasp reality, I do not believe every car they make is great.

I'm actually interested in this car. I hope that it will be a good affordable lightweight sports car. Something below $50k in price for those that want light and nimble. If people buy it for the badge, that's great for them. Porsche have been on a roll recently of making good cars.
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Old 06-12-2014, 11:58 AM   #73
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Quote:
Also, the text you "quoted" doesn't exist at that link
Yes it -does-?
Yes, it is existing at that link. Currently. Sure, "does" works also, but there's nothing wrong with "Yes it is" because it's existing.

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Old 06-12-2014, 02:01 PM   #74
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On second thought, not worth it.
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Old 06-12-2014, 05:49 PM   #75
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By your logic, since they were cheaper than the existing model, when the Boxster/Cayman was released, it was a badge car. But it didn't turn out that way, did it?

Flawless logic you're using, along with acting as if you've already driven the car....clearly I'm not the one confused here.

Tell us, where did the Porsche owner touch you?
Depends on who you ask. Many die hard 911 owners consider the boxster/cayman a hair dresses car. As I said in my very first post. It depends on the individual person's own definition of value.

I certainly do not think you get much with most european brands for the premium you are asked to pay. Porsche included. Lets just push pause and see what comes out and we can argue about it again.
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