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Old 10-24-2004, 02:20 PM   #1
Unsung Boxer
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Default finally doing something about runability.

Goal:
Ok guys. I dont know about you, but how many people here are running AFI and your car may be fast at WOT, but you just cant get it to run like stock other times? I am getting so pissed at my car dying every morning and chugging when I pull into traffic. I decided to do something about it. This will be my log of what I am doing, and how it effect everything.
___________________________________

Symptoms:
-Vehicle dies after cold starts.
-Excessive popping on decel suggests rich condition
-On cold starts, engine revs up and down.
-Sometimes, even when warm, engine will rev to about 2000rpm. If I dont rev it, it will throw CEL and go into safemode.
-EGT's at idle are about 10k, cruise 12-14k, and the following at WOT:
@12psi, EGT's exceed 1550F despite efforts to richen/retard topend.
@10psi, EGT's can still exceed 1550, but not as bad.
@8psi, EGT's seem about normal at WOT. (using same fuel map as above)

___________________________________
Engine Setup:
98 Subaru 2.2L-T
Primative Built EJ22na shortblock w/ EJ22t Pistons/Crank.
O-Ringed SOHC Single Port Heads
Stock FPR (same as ej22t part#)
EJ22t Injectors (used)
EJ22t Fuel Rail
WRX Fuel Pump (used)
WRX Turbo (TD04L)
WRX Intercooler
Turbo XS RFL BOV (to atm)
Turbo XS Boost controller
Spark Plugs (NGK BKR-6E11, just switched from 7's)
Ground Mod (well grounded)

Piping:
Custom Up Pipe
Custom Down Pipe
Custom 3" exhaust w/ 3" cat & muffler
Custom 2.5" Intake w/ Generic Filter (MAF based)

Engine Managment:
Greddy Emanage (w/ timing control)
Autometer Boost Guage
Autometer EGT Guage
___________________________________

Theories
I could have multiple problems. I dont know exactly when this started, as I put all my turbo componants on at the same time. The engine ran good before I had the turbo componants on. I used to run SAFC and had the same problem then. I switched to Emanage, and still could not tune out the problems.

Engine revving:
Possible IAC motor failing? I have an extra one if I need it.
injector issue?
vacuum leak

Engine stalling:
bad injectors? (have stock injectors and rails if necessary)
single bad injector
bad fuel map/timing map (cannot seem to tune it out)
vacuum leak (at BOV?)
bad 02 sensor (have extra, if necessary)
bad MAF sensor
Neutral sensor switch? <--this is a new suggestion.
bad spark plugs (just replaced w/ new set, no difference)
plug wires (6months old, factory subaru)
___________________________________

Plans:
I plan to work backwards.

I am going to swap in my old injectors. and lower the boost to the point that they can handle it. I will use Emanage to control them.

Throw parts at it. This is generally expensive, but I have access to a few parts like IAC motor, O2 sensor, etc.

Now that I work at Subaru, I have more access to information/parts/techs etc. Im excited to see what I come up with. Anyone feel free to spit out ideas at me. Yes, im a new technician, but it doesnt mean I will think of every idea.
___________________________________

(unsung)
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Last edited by Unsung Boxer; 10-24-2004 at 02:28 PM.
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Old 10-24-2004, 03:10 PM   #2
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Step one, restoring L injectors:

I will take pics of my EJ22t injectors that I am pulling out. I never realized how HUGE the pentil is compared to the L ones. Also, I want you guys to help ID the ej22t ones. Perhaps ive been sold the wrong injectors.

Also, I have to re-map my Emanage. is 6.5psi too much for Stock injectors? what percent fuel increase should I end up at? Suggestions please.

Edit:

I put in the stock injectors. The dying on cold start problem is now gone. My engine revs without hesitation now. I do not hear excessive poping.

I BS'd a fuel map on Emanage. I am starting at 0% correction at idle.
Then: (Throttle=10,RPM=2800, +5%) <-interpoled-> (Throttle=100,RPM=6400,+15%)

(unsung)

Last edited by Unsung Boxer; 10-24-2004 at 04:04 PM.
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Old 10-24-2004, 04:52 PM   #3
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ive come to the conclusion, with my set up, and having similiar issues as you, that the injectors and pump (supra/400cc) are to large for the stock ecu to handle, causing flooding.

Ive worked out just about ever drivability concern I have had, just by adjusting the dec air settings in my safc when I start up in the morning, and adust as the car warms up.

Do to the lack of timing control im stuck to the 10-11 psi range because of high egts at WOT near readline. Maybe the emanage doesnt give you enough control over timing? I dunno. Have you tried more advance rather than retard?

Cruising and 3/4 throttle my car runs great aside from flooding on decel.

Jay
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Old 10-24-2004, 04:59 PM   #4
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same thing happened to me once I put on my EJ22T rails and injectors. I think the timing may be off, but there is no way to adjust that on the SAFC I have. On my SAFC, I managed to get the car to not stall in running rich on most days except really cold ones where I would need to re-adjust my DECEL-AIR correction. But occasionally while the car is still cold (cold rear o2), and I clutch into neutral, the IAC couldn't catch the drop in RPM and may stall the car. I am not sure if there is a way to cap the IAC better so this problem will less likely occur though... curious indeed. I still am using the 7 range plug to be safe.

(6.6 psi stock TD04L spring on FP-18t compressor ported/clipped)
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Old 10-24-2004, 05:24 PM   #5
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Yeah retarding timing causes EGT's to rise. It pushes the uncomplete combustion into the exhaust. Advancing timing lets it burn longer inside the engine, thus it will be cooler when it enters the exhaust.
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Old 10-24-2004, 05:31 PM   #6
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i dont know how much adjustability the emanage has but you can prob fix some of those issues. otherwise time for new engine management, mine runs pretty smooth actually but my EM was pretty spendy.

those first two issues are idle map issues, the idle hunting and dying as well, dont know how it deals with it but just play with those settings.

good luck

Ben
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Old 10-24-2004, 07:01 PM   #7
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So far, putting in the L injectors has really improved drivability. However, a couple times today, the vehicle died when comming to a stop. Im not sure what is going on. I wonder if running too rich for a year has ruined my 02 sensor. It seemed to run better now when its cold, and not as good when it warms up. The only difference is the use of the primary 02. I will replaced that next and see what happens.

(unsung)
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Old 10-25-2004, 07:59 AM   #8
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Jake, sorry to hear you're having problems. Since I put the turbo back on this last spring I've been running the stock injectors at 6 maybe a peak of 7 psi. My car almost feels faster than running 10psi with the legacy turbo injectors, which were WAY too rich unless I was at WOT. Now with the stock injectors I run virtually no correction on the S-AFC - in fact I think my car would be fine without it. Though words like that can get a person lynched around here.

I know I toasted a few o2s with the larger injectors, and for a long time I was having a hessitation problem. That went away at the same time my A/F gauge actually started showing some sort of reading. While the car was having problems the A/F gauge was black. I wouldn't doubt the O2 sensor as being an issue.

The dying when coming to a stop also happened to me once upon a time. My bet would be something related to your BOV (if you're running an non-recirc type) or some sort of post MAF leak. I corrected my problem by adding one washer to my TurboXS Type-H BOV, and by adjusting some Decel-Air settings on the S-AFC. Now my car runs 100% perfect. I've been contemplating putting the Legacy turbo injectors back in, but its too good to mess with right now.

I'm waiting to maybe try a Megasquirt or something similar for my fuel correction before I up the boost and injectors again. Too many other projects on the back burner anyhow.

Good luck man.
-Brad
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Old 10-25-2004, 01:13 PM   #9
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i had very similar problems with my first impreza with an ej20 and a Link..

my problems were fuel pump, plugs, wires and iac.
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Old 10-25-2004, 05:38 PM   #10
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Had the same problem here with 420cc Wrx injectors. i went back to the stock injectors and install an additional injector controller with one injector per runner. Now I am running 8 injectors and the secondariies are tuned by MAP( boost) and RPM so no more rich condition on my car! It pulls great.
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Old 10-25-2004, 07:12 PM   #11
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http://myweb.cableone.net/subiekid/Injectors%20032.jpg

Thats a pic of ej22T injectors. At the top end you need to not have the timing advanced so much and run a bit leaner then your regular ARF under boost. I unpluged my IAC, when running it with the OEM ecu and the TEC doing everything else it would surge as you described. I am going to try to get the IAC from electromotive and get it working, I know there is some issues with it, but it will help more then not having one at all.
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Old 10-25-2004, 09:42 PM   #12
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Step Two

Today I replaced the IACV with another used one (which I am pretty sure is good). The car noticably idles differently. In fact, it almost seems to idle too high. I didnt get to drive it enough today to be sure. It did die once comming to a stop, but that coulda been my fault. I will drive it more and let you guys know my results.

btw, those pics confirm i was using ej22t injectors. Im not sure if they were good though. I dont see anything noticably wrong with them, but they are generally go bad internally anyways.

My next step, will be to replaced the primary o2 senoser. So far, I feel like I have made good progress. The car does run MUCH better than before.

(unsung)

edit: drove the car more tonight. The idle seems to have leveled out. I forgot to mention that earlier today i cleared memory with a scan tool, so it may have taken a while to relearn idle. Its gonna take more driving to confirm that its really driving better. Until tomarrow..

Last edited by Unsung Boxer; 10-25-2004 at 10:30 PM.
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Old 10-26-2004, 07:50 AM   #13
ChicksDigWagons
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Those are definately legacy turbo injectors, and speaking of which an interesting tidbit.

I ran my car all last winter with the legacy turbo injectors and the stock intake/exhuast. No turbo. My AFC was full negative trim accross the boards and maybe I got used to it but it ran okay - besides the gas mileage, and the black soot coming out of my tailpipe...

But, we're kindof comparing apples to oranges since you're low compression. that extra point and a half may be the difference between the injectors running richer than ideal, and running too rich to run properly at all - aside from all other factors. I may reinstall my leg turbo injectors sometime to see how it runs over the winter again, but I reckon I'll be too lazy.
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Old 10-26-2004, 02:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsung Boxer
Step Two

Today I replaced the IACV with another used one (which I am pretty sure is good). The car noticably idles differently. In fact, it almost seems to idle too high. I didnt get to drive it enough today to be sure. It did die once comming to a stop, but that coulda been my fault. I will drive it more and let you guys know my results.

You can adjust the amount of air that passes through the IAC, just loosen the two screws on it and turn.
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Old 10-26-2004, 04:11 PM   #15
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Recirculate your BOV. My car ran MUCH better with the recirculated BOV than with it to atmosphere.

Here's the thing... With my old down pipe, the car ran great with the BOV open. By adding a divorced style wastegate dump into the downpipe (see my getting more for less article) the car would no longer run well with the BOV open and here is why. Before, the BOV would actually suck air at idle. Once the new down pipe was installed, the BOV would blow at idle, which basically means I am boosting at idle with the TD04L and high flow down pipe. By recirculating the BOV it made the car quit stalling at idle and during cold starts. For some reason, the E-Manage was no longer able to cope with the open BOV... oh and I replaced the BOV with another one I had. Appearantly when running more than 7psi, you don't want the BOSCH BOV's to see all that boost, it rips the little diaphram inside. To fix this "t" off the vacuum line into the engine side of the MAF.

Step 2: Clean your battery posts and reset the ECU. Just try it, I do this every couple of months and can tell a difference every time. For some reason, the negative post quickly develops that waxy non conductive insulator.

Step 3: Send your injectors to me free of charge.

Chad
93 2.2T
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Old 10-26-2004, 06:39 PM   #16
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well I guess I will add my 2 cents.

My car has WRX pump and inj. I have WB so I can shed some extra light on some of the rough idle and stalling issues.

idle - my car will most of the time idle perfectly stoic. But for reasons I havent figured out, it will sometimes sit as low as 12.5 (sounds GREAT - but is rich none the less) and even up to 16 AFR. The car will almost never stall or idle rough due to a rich condition, it is when it starts hunting and RPMs are bouncing up and down that it goes lean up to 16 and THATs where you feel the car stumble and shake a little at low RPM.

I am interesed what correction people are running on their injectors. I personally cannot get the car to hold idle (without hunting) at any correction other greater than +-5%, and I have WRX injectors.

What are people running for injector compinsations at idle? ie airflow correction

My BOV is recirculated and I agree that getting that done helped me alot, but has not fully cured stalling if the revs fall too fast. I attriblute most of that to my JUN flywheel though. Our cars cut fuel under Decel - so I don't see how decel can "rich" although my car pops as well, but usually upon initial tip in of throttle within decel.

On the battery note: I recently just replaced my battery as it was dying with a Optima Yellow top. Just replacing the battery with one that has even charge and clean terminals has helped the car EVERYWHERE. Try it. Or at least take a layer off the terminals.

Todd
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Old 10-26-2004, 08:36 PM   #17
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STEP 3

Replace 02 sensor. Today I replaced the o2 sensor. And it sill made no difference. It dies randomly @ idle, but all in all, i think the injectors/iac made a difference. The old o2 sensor was covered in dark soot. I suspect ive run rich for a while, but I dont think the 02 has anything to do with it.

As far as the BOV recirc goes...

After replacing the 02 sensor, I disconnect my BOV all together. I can still rev the engine and get it to die. I dont think the BOV is a primary cause of this problem.

Next thing I plan to look at is Emanage, and its settings. Keep in mind, right now im running 0 correction till 2800rpm, and 10%throttle. It should be idling like stock, in my opinion.

(unsung)
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Old 10-26-2004, 11:20 PM   #18
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Does it die after its warmed up? Mine occasionly dies at idle, but only when its still cold, once it warms up its fine.
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Old 10-27-2004, 12:06 AM   #19
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Jake (it's Jake, right)

First off, let me just say thanks for the motivation to update my site.

You say you are not making corrections until 2700 RPM??? I have to add a considerable amount of fuel at that RPM to make the car run smooth. At 2700 RPM, I'm at 9psi already. Check out the fuel and timing maps on the link below, you might want to try them out. Realize though I'm in Vegas which is quite a bit up from sea level... hence why I can run about 10psi before maxing out my injectors.

http://www.uniquemotorsports.com/sub...s/emanage2.htm

When I tuned the car, I tuned it for driveability using my ear for detonation and simple autometer air/fuel gauge for fuel tuning. Hence, the rich condition, but let me just say the car is just as smooth as it was stock.

Chad
93 2.2T
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Old 10-27-2004, 12:32 AM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subachad
Jake (it's Jake, right)

I tuned it for driveability using my ear for detonation and simple autometer air/fuel gauge for fuel tuning.

Chad
93 2.2T
Chad I am using a MAF based ECU, emanage, boost guage, and EGT guage. I BS'd my AF map, but really, it runs smoothly thru the RPM. I will look at your maps.

I just dont see how this relates to my idle. I dont understand why it dies on decel like that. I will try to get a screenshot of my map/timing map/and boost cut settings. u can tell me what im doing wrong. I never got into emanage enough.

(unsung)
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Old 10-27-2004, 12:43 AM   #21
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Mine was dying sometimes when I would slow down to a light... It was caused by the old Bosch BOV. Basically, something must have ripped inside because even while recirculating, it caused a vacuum leak.

I don't really have that problem anymore, though it does bog down a lot and sometimes threatens to die when I pull up to a light. I really wish I had a wideband, I would love to know what the air/fuel ratio is during this time. I tried adding about 18% which is actually 9% fuel from 500rpm to 1500rpm on just the top 2 squares and this smoothed out the idle considerably. I set it back lower though after replacing the BOV, so you might try that.

I'm also running a 1.8L flywheel with the 2.2L engine, so it's kinda small. My tach can not keep up with the engine. I hit the rev limit yesterday while testing my new steering rack and port job (6200 rpm) in first and the tach only showed up to 5500.

Also, I'm very curios to know what your air flow meter is maxing out at. Last I checked, I'm getting up to 4 volts. (check my getting more for less article for more on that)

Chad
93 2.2T
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Old 10-27-2004, 01:04 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by subachad

I'm also running a 1.8L flywheel with the 2.2L engine, so it's kinda small. My tach can not keep up with the engine. I hit the rev limit yesterday while testing my new steering rack and port job (6200 rpm) in first and the tach only showed up to 5500.

Also, I'm very curios to know what your air flow meter is maxing out at. Last I checked, I'm getting up to 4 volts. (check my getting more for less article for more on that)

Chad
93 2.2T
Chad, I dont know why your flywheel changes your rpm reading. yes, its lighter so it takes less engine power to turn it, therefore idle will be higher, and change-in-rpm will be faster, but your RPM is determined by the crank position sensor. So if your tach is reading low/high, its not due to your flywheel.

I think the MAF sensor is 0 to 5 volts. Everyone tells me to clamp it at 4.75 or so, so that it doesnt throw a code for exceeding 100%. Ill read your artical, perhaps im not understanding what you are saying.

(unsung)

btw, what rotary settings are you using for emanage? I have mine tucked away, so Ill have to dig it out and check if i got the right ones. that might be the whole prob right there.
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Old 10-27-2004, 01:19 AM   #23
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Ok, but after this, my laptop stays put away...

I was saying the tach is too slow to be accurate since the car has MUCH quicker acceleration than stock, that's all. If I cared much, I would buy an aftermarket, but I can hear what RPM I'm at so it's not a big deal. It might have to do with the stoplight stumble thing though. If the engine is slowing down too fast and the ecu is unable to compensate. Kind of why you won't run a 7 pound flywheel on a car.

Airflow is SB_HW-3 under parameter setting.
Rotary sw1 is 3, sw2 is 6, and sw3 is 2.
Ignition input jumper setting is pull down
ignition output jumper setting is 5v
Airflow meter 1 in use
Airflow meter 2 not in use
airflow meter pulse input not in use
airflow meter pulse output not in use.

The AAV starts at 1000 and gos up in 1000 RPM increments, but this is disabled so shouldn't matter.

You might remember a few months ago when I set these and tried multiple settings. This is all current as of 10:20PM Tues, Oct 26 2004.

If you record a full throttle run, what's the highest Air Flow voltage you see?

Chad
93 2.2T
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Old 10-27-2004, 02:27 PM   #24
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I would have to say based on my experiance that the stallin problem it realted to the IAC motor. It's not that it's failing it just doesnt' react quick enough when you put a turbo on the older cars that use it located on the side of the manifold. I think the turbo kits must effect the flow of air to it to much. I have had three different NA turboed engines 2.2 and 2.5 and run all different setups, stock injectors no fuel computer, stock injectors w/FPR/ stock injectors w/AFC, rec. BOV, BOV to atomosphere, light flywheel, stock flywheel, larger injectors w/AFC, and combinations there of. I have found that the stalling problem persits no matter what if I come down the RPMs to fast. I found little things lessen the problem in my settings but nothing eliminates it, the easiest and most effective thing has be to just adjust my driving style.
Joshua
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Old 10-27-2004, 11:26 PM   #25
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Unsung Boxer
So far, putting in the L injectors has really improved drivability. However, a couple times today, the vehicle died when comming to a stop. Im not sure what is going on. I wonder if running too rich for a year has ruined my 02 sensor. It seemed to run better now when its cold, and not as good when it warms up. The only difference is the use of the primary 02. I will replaced that next and see what happens.

(unsung)
If you're AFI and you've been running bigger than stock injectors, you'll be drastically reducing the lifespan of your O2 sensor. Life-span should be 30 - 40K miles on average.

I've never heard of Emanage, so I'm not sure what it is exactly, but if it doesn't include SAFC controls, get an SAFC. If it does have controls similar to an SAFC, check the 02 sensor readout. If the reading is at or near zero at idle, it needs replaced.
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