Older NA, modded engine, SAFC-II a good choice?

Charlie-III · 10-11-2009, 03:28 PM

Like the title states, "Older NA, modded engine, SAFC-II a good choice?".

Is it?

MODS, I know this "may" be a good one in the aftermarket tuning section, but nothing new frikkin works for me!

I am also NOT in a position to change my ECU to a 99 or newer, so please don't mention it.

I have a chance to buy a used Apexi SAFC-II locally and within my budget, would anyone here like to comment on whether or not I should run away and buy something newer/different, or would this work OK for me?

I have:
Crawford rebuilt STi SB with ~10.75:1 NA pistons
COBB DOHC P&P heads with COBB street cams (a step below the Spicey cams)
COBB EL coated headers with HFC and full COBB CBE
Grimmspeed intake spacers
Light flywheel
Stock 1998 ECU

I know some of you have used the Apexi in the past, would you do it again, is it still a decent option?

I am NOT going for the biggest/baddest NA Legacy out there, but I believe I am running rich and need to change things a bit.
I am also researching on a wideband O2 right now, leaning towards the PLX.

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

HeyChris · 10-11-2009, 05:45 PM

Subscribed....

Storm · 10-11-2009, 09:19 PM

You should be able to lean things out with the SAFCII. I just took an SAFC out of my Brighton. Since installing the standalone, I've only been using it for gauge displays....

It's always worked well for me, I'm pretty sure it'll work fine for you.

Jay

Charlie-III · 10-11-2009, 10:09 PM

Jay, thanks for the comments.

Mods, thanks for not moving this thread (yet).

As I stated, I can't use a lot of current piggybacks or ECU flashes, thus I wanted this in the NA forum.
I don't want to have to wade through a bazillion threads/posts on stuff that won't support my ECU.

I'm hoping that Pat O & others will chime in soon.

Thanks again for replying or keeping this thread here.

Patrick Olsen · 10-12-2009, 02:14 AM

I've never used the S-AFC II, I just had/have the SAFC. AFAIK, though, the S-AFC II was just a "new and improved" version with a bit better tuning resolution and different display options. It should work just fine for you, methinks.

As I've said elsewhere, I've really only used it to tune the open loop behavior. My Lo Throttle point is 20% throttle, and all the corrections are set to 0%. My Hi Throttle point is 80% throttle, and that's where I did all my tuning. It may be that I could use the low throttle settings to lean things out during normal driving, as well, but I've never had any way to do effective datalogging to figure out how that would work. I've finally got a wideband O2 installed, and then of course the engine goes and dies on me.

Kevin Thomas · 10-12-2009, 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Patrick Olsen

I've never used the S-AFC II, I just had/have the SAFC. AFAIK, though, the S-AFC II was just a "new and improved" version with a bit better tuning resolution and different display options. It should work just fine for you, methinks.

As I've said elsewhere, I've really only used it to tune the open loop behavior. My Lo Throttle point is 20% throttle, and all the corrections are set to 0%. My Hi Throttle point is 80% throttle, and that's where I did all my tuning. It may be that I could use the low throttle settings to lean things out during normal driving, as well, but I've never had any way to do effective datalogging to figure out how that would work. I've finally got a wideband O2 installed, and then of course the engine goes and dies on me.

Like Pat, I'm thinking that the SAFC should work well for you. I have used an older Hyper Simple SFC (Back-in-the-day when Subarus and track events were in black-n-white like old T.V.s

). I've had great success with that and the older styled SAFC on a turbocharged 1997 Impreza. I now have an SAFC Neo that 'worked' great. It was a little challenging at first until I took to the time to read the manual for controls then it seemed to work better. Installing it and pushing buttons to figure it out is not recommended (Me). I wish I had more feedback but I have only used the SAFC Neo to get the car from the shop to my house. The car has since been garaged until I take care of a pesky 'Check engine' light issue.

So all in all, I recommend it. I have never been a fan of the stand alones myself but I'm from the old school. I like cheap and what works.

Charlie-III · 10-12-2009, 08:49 PM

Kevin, Pat & Jay, (in no real order) thanks for the feedback.

NASIOC Mods, thanks for not burying me in the other forum.

I will see what the seller states, but I need to help out my build a bit and the feedback here has been what I expected.

LetItSnow · 10-13-2009, 01:23 PM

Cheap is cheap, but with the rest of what you've invested, I'd suggest considering a PP6 to also get timing adjustment, easier programming and map management, logging capabilities... Not for nothin', but I was able to eliminate a repeatable CEL in my old Legacy with it.

I'm sure the SAFC is effective, and you're hard pressed to beat bang-for-the-buck on a used one, but on the other hand, I've been disappointed by buying an item that was pretty much "sending a boy to do a man's job" too many times, and winding up spending more in the long run to get to the same place.

Storm · 10-13-2009, 07:51 PM

If he's gonna spend on a PP6, he might as well buy a used standalone. My G1 Link ECU cost me less than the price of a PP6 and has more control. Personally, I couldn't be happier with it. But to each his own, YMMV, my 0.02, etc...

Jay

Charlie-III · 10-13-2009, 09:29 PM

Guys, I still say, "Thanks to you" for helping me out.
To the mods, I say, "Thanks for not dumping this thread in the other forum where I can get no real support for an older ECU.

I will have to say, until I get a wideband, I am only guessing I need AFR help. But, if I had to bet on it, I say I will need AFR help. The MAF ECU is pretty good, but I think most here will agree that I'm really pushing what it can adjust for.

Rob, I value your input as well. I remember the PP emails we traded a few years ago (when I thought I was about ready to put the engine in.....ROTFLMAO).

I am looking at the PLX wideband O2 sensor, anyone want to share comments on that or another choice??

As to the Apexi SAFC-II, it looks to only come with the basic box & harness, I have downloaded the manuals (operation & wiring) from Apexi US. It there anything else that should be with the unit?

I will likely add some questions on basic settings if I get this.

Thanks again for the ideas, comments, suggestions.

Charlie-III · 10-13-2009, 10:07 PM

Unit is here...... http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1853478

I believe that, with the manuals I grabbed off of Apexi-US site, should get me started.

Matt Monson · 10-14-2009, 10:27 AM

Charlie,
If you have any issue with the manuals, let me know. I have a copy of them as well since I own the same unit.

Just to add to Jay's comments, Xephyr uses an early Link to tune his DOHC Ej25 Impreza. It really is a nice unit for the old school stuff. Not only did it allow him to raise his redline to 7500rpm to fully exercise the aggressive cames that he's got, but he picked up an extra 10whp with the timing control it offers him. It was how he got the car to match mine on the dyno even though he was running Borla headers and unported heads. It suggests that I am still leaving 10-15whp on the table for my car because of the lack of proper "tune".

If you can afford it, I would love to see a before and after dyno readout of your car. This would also help you with the intial setup of the AFC because you can use the dyno's wideband to see where your A/F's currently stand and use that as a basis for your tweaks, and then see your results when you make the second run.

Patrick Olsen · 10-14-2009, 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie-III

I will have to say, until I get a wideband, I am only guessing I need AFR help. But, if I had to bet on it, I say I will need AFR help. The MAF ECU is pretty good, but I think most here will agree that I'm really pushing what it can adjust for.

Based on my own experience with a nearly identical setup I'd say you're definitely running rich. Probably pig rich from about 4500rpm on up. Obviously a WBO2 is the best way to prove that, but I'd bet you'll pick up 8-10hp at the peak just from leaning out the top end to 12.5:1 or so.

Pat

LetItSnow · 10-14-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storm

If he's gonna spend on a PP6, he might as well buy a used standalone. My G1 Link ECU cost me less than the price of a PP6 and has more control. Personally, I couldn't be happier with it. But to each his own, YMMV, my 0.02, etc...

Jay

Price to price, that's absolutely true. The leap to a standalone from a PP6 is not far at all. There's a lot to be said about retaining OBD-II on a street vehicle, though.

Charlie-III · 10-14-2009, 05:00 PM

Thanks guys.
The car sorta feels wierd (probably due to fueling) as it's OK from ~1600-2600RPM, then stumbles a little bit, starts to pull better and then takes off @ ~4200RPM. I wonder if it's due to parts or something odd in fueling. Feels good though.

Matt, I'm trying to do before/after dyno runs, sorta want my own Wideband O2 first though. Either way, I need to get a second O2 sensor bung put in.

Storm · 10-14-2009, 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LetItSnow

Price to price, that's absolutely true. The leap to a standalone from a PP6 is not far at all. There's a lot to be said about retaining OBD-II on a street vehicle, though.

True-dat!

I kept my harness plug unmolested so I can swap out ECU's and make a few sensor changes under the hood for inspection time.

Charlie, I would bet that you're rich as well. You could get oldskool and try to measure EGT's, O2 sensor volt values via the "blue wire mod" or just make hard pulls and cut the ignition so you can read the plugs.....

I have the innovate LC1 in both the RS and the Brighton. It works okay for the codriver and I. Whatever you decide to use, good luck!

Jay

ballitch · 10-14-2009, 10:29 PM

I love this thread, not one hate post yet. The SAFC may be dated, but so are our cars, lol.

I have a SAFC-II as well, but have been too lazy to install it. Maybe this thread is the push I need...

~Josh~

ballitch · 10-14-2009, 10:29 PM

I love this thread, not one hate post yet. The SAFC may be dated, but so are our cars, lol.

I have a SAFC-II as well, but have been too lazy to install it. Maybe this thread is the push I need...

~Josh~

ballitch · 10-14-2009, 10:31 PM

I love this thread, not one hate post yet. Usually you get alot of flak for asking about installing one of these dinosaur tuning tools. The SAFC may be dated, but so are our cars, lol.

I have a SAFC-II as well, but have been too lazy to install it. Maybe this thread is the push I need...

~Josh~

Storm · 10-14-2009, 11:16 PM

^^^ We_get_the_picture_Josh......

Jay

Matt Monson · 10-15-2009, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Charlie-III

Thanks guys.
The car sorta feels wierd (probably due to fueling) as it's OK from ~1600-2600RPM, then stumbles a little bit, starts to pull better and then takes off @ ~4200RPM. I wonder if it's due to parts or something odd in fueling. Feels good though.

Matt, I'm trying to do before/after dyno runs, sorta want my own Wideband O2 first though. Either way, I need to get a second O2 sensor bung put in.

Your Cobb headers have two bungs. Do you mean a third bung?

Like Josh I've never installed my AFC. Though my AFs are better than most around here.

Well, I guess that's a lie. They used to be on the 2000 RS. I don't have a clue what they are like on the '99 since I've never checked it. But I do know it was rich enough that even the Cobb high flow cat couldn't get it through emissions. I had to reinstall the stock exhaust, which is something I never did on the 2000.

Charlie-III · 10-15-2009, 02:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Matt Monson

Your Cobb headers have two bungs. Do you mean a third bung?

Like Josh I've never installed my AFC. Though my AFs are better than most around here.

Well, I guess that's a lie. They used to be on the 2000 RS. I don't have a clue what they are like on the '99 since I've never checked it. But I do know it was rich enough that even the Cobb high flow cat couldn't get it through emissions. I had to reinstall the stock exhaust, which is something I never did on the 2000.

2 bungs?, I don't believe I have 2, I think I only have one and the front O2 sensor is in it. I should double check though.

As to passing emissions, I passed on my recently.

Charlie-III · 10-15-2009, 02:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ballitch

I love this thread, not one hate post yet. Usually you get alot of flak for asking about installing one of these dinosaur tuning tools. The SAFC may be dated, but so are our cars, lol.

I have a SAFC-II as well, but have been too lazy to install it. Maybe this thread is the push I need...

~Josh~

Triple post for the MFW!!!

Keep in mind, the group posting in this thread is more old school, basically the "pre WRX crowd"!

It's more like what I found here & on COBB's forum when I first joined......I miss those days.

ballitch · 10-15-2009, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Storm

^^^ We_get_the_picture_Josh......

Jay

That totally wasnt me, slow computer/interwebs = fail.

My bad.

~Josh~

reddevil · 10-15-2009, 09:38 PM

IF you can find a PLX R-500 its a great wideband unit because it has Wideband/EGT/Knock built in(with headphones for KNOCK), logging capabilities and multiple inputs/outputs.

10-11-2009, 03:28 PM	#1
Charlie-III Scooby Specialist Member#: 30669 Join Date: Dec 2002 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: 07456, North NJ Vehicle: 1998 Legacy 2.5GT Silver Sleeper Wagon	Older NA, modded engine, SAFC-II a good choice? Like the title states, "Older NA, modded engine, SAFC-II a good choice?". Is it? MODS, I know this "may" be a good one in the aftermarket tuning section, but nothing new frikkin works for me! I am also NOT in a position to change my ECU to a 99 or newer, so please don't mention it. I have a chance to buy a used Apexi SAFC-II locally and within my budget, would anyone here like to comment on whether or not I should run away and buy something newer/different, or would this work OK for me? I have: Crawford rebuilt STi SB with ~10.75:1 NA pistons COBB DOHC P&P heads with COBB street cams (a step below the Spicey cams) COBB EL coated headers with HFC and full COBB CBE Grimmspeed intake spacers Light flywheel Stock 1998 ECU I know some of you have used the Apexi in the past, would you do it again, is it still a decent option? I am NOT going for the biggest/baddest NA Legacy out there, but I believe I am running rich and need to change things a bit. I am also researching on a wideband O2 right now, leaning towards the PLX. * Registered users of the site do not see these ads. Last edited by Charlie-III; 10-13-2009 at 09:24 PM. Reason: Changed O2 wideband from Apexi to PLX.

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10-11-2009, 05:45 PM	#2
HeyChris Scooby Specialist Member#: 2234 Join Date: Aug 2000 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: Behind The Orange Curtain. Vehicle: 2001 Impreza RS w/HC 4 shades of white.	Subscribed....

10-11-2009, 09:19 PM	#3
Storm Scooby Guru Member#: 5218 Join Date: Mar 2001 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: NorthEast Ohio Vehicle: 96L FSP project 98RS DSP	You should be able to lean things out with the SAFCII. I just took an SAFC out of my Brighton. Since installing the standalone, I've only been using it for gauge displays.... It's always worked well for me, I'm pretty sure it'll work fine for you. Jay

10-11-2009, 10:09 PM	#4
Charlie-III Scooby Specialist Member#: 30669 Join Date: Dec 2002 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: 07456, North NJ Vehicle: 1998 Legacy 2.5GT Silver Sleeper Wagon	Jay, thanks for the comments. Mods, thanks for not moving this thread (yet). As I stated, I can't use a lot of current piggybacks or ECU flashes, thus I wanted this in the NA forum. I don't want to have to wade through a bazillion threads/posts on stuff that won't support my ECU. I'm hoping that Pat O & others will chime in soon. Thanks again for replying or keeping this thread here.

10-12-2009, 02:14 AM	#5
Patrick Olsen NASIOC Supporter Member#: 120 Join Date: Jul 1999 Chapter/Region: AKIC Location: Where the Navy sends me... Vehicle: 1997 Legacy 2.5GT QuickSilver Metallic	I've never used the S-AFC II, I just had/have the SAFC. AFAIK, though, the S-AFC II was just a "new and improved" version with a bit better tuning resolution and different display options. It should work just fine for you, methinks. As I've said elsewhere, I've really only used it to tune the open loop behavior. My Lo Throttle point is 20% throttle, and all the corrections are set to 0%. My Hi Throttle point is 80% throttle, and that's where I did all my tuning. It may be that I could use the low throttle settings to lean things out during normal driving, as well, but I've never had any way to do effective datalogging to figure out how that would work. I've finally got a wideband O2 installed, and then of course the engine goes and dies on me.

10-12-2009, 08:49 PM	#7
Charlie-III Scooby Specialist Member#: 30669 Join Date: Dec 2002 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: 07456, North NJ Vehicle: 1998 Legacy 2.5GT Silver Sleeper Wagon	Kevin, Pat & Jay, (in no real order) thanks for the feedback. NASIOC Mods, thanks for not burying me in the other forum. I will see what the seller states, but I need to help out my build a bit and the feedback here has been what I expected.

10-13-2009, 01:23 PM	#8
LetItSnow Scooby Specialist Member#: 38222 Join Date: Jun 2003 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: Cicero, NY Vehicle: '92 SVX:White w/5mt 6 cylinders; no waiting!	Cheap is cheap, but with the rest of what you've invested, I'd suggest considering a PP6 to also get timing adjustment, easier programming and map management, logging capabilities... Not for nothin', but I was able to eliminate a repeatable CEL in my old Legacy with it. I'm sure the SAFC is effective, and you're hard pressed to beat bang-for-the-buck on a used one, but on the other hand, I've been disappointed by buying an item that was pretty much "sending a boy to do a man's job" too many times, and winding up spending more in the long run to get to the same place.

10-13-2009, 07:51 PM	#9
Storm Scooby Guru Member#: 5218 Join Date: Mar 2001 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: NorthEast Ohio Vehicle: 96L FSP project 98RS DSP	If he's gonna spend on a PP6, he might as well buy a used standalone. My G1 Link ECU cost me less than the price of a PP6 and has more control. Personally, I couldn't be happier with it. But to each his own, YMMV, my 0.02, etc... Jay

10-13-2009, 09:29 PM	#10
Charlie-III Scooby Specialist Member#: 30669 Join Date: Dec 2002 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: 07456, North NJ Vehicle: 1998 Legacy 2.5GT Silver Sleeper Wagon	Guys, I still say, "Thanks to you" for helping me out. To the mods, I say, "Thanks for not dumping this thread in the other forum where I can get no real support for an older ECU. I will have to say, until I get a wideband, I am only guessing I need AFR help. But, if I had to bet on it, I say I will need AFR help. The MAF ECU is pretty good, but I think most here will agree that I'm really pushing what it can adjust for. Rob, I value your input as well. I remember the PP emails we traded a few years ago (when I thought I was about ready to put the engine in.....ROTFLMAO). I am looking at the PLX wideband O2 sensor, anyone want to share comments on that or another choice?? As to the Apexi SAFC-II, it looks to only come with the basic box & harness, I have downloaded the manuals (operation & wiring) from Apexi US. It there anything else that should be with the unit? I will likely add some questions on basic settings if I get this. Thanks again for the ideas, comments, suggestions.

10-13-2009, 10:07 PM	#11
Charlie-III Scooby Specialist Member#: 30669 Join Date: Dec 2002 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: 07456, North NJ Vehicle: 1998 Legacy 2.5GT Silver Sleeper Wagon	Unit is here...... http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show....php?t=1853478 I believe that, with the manuals I grabbed off of Apexi-US site, should get me started.

10-14-2009, 10:27 AM	#12
Matt Monson Scooby Guru Member#: 832 Join Date: Jan 2000 Chapter/Region: RMIC Location: Teh Ghetto Garage, CO Vehicle: 1999 2.5RS, '08 WRX '73 914 and Bumblebee	Charlie, If you have any issue with the manuals, let me know. I have a copy of them as well since I own the same unit. Just to add to Jay's comments, Xephyr uses an early Link to tune his DOHC Ej25 Impreza. It really is a nice unit for the old school stuff. Not only did it allow him to raise his redline to 7500rpm to fully exercise the aggressive cames that he's got, but he picked up an extra 10whp with the timing control it offers him. It was how he got the car to match mine on the dyno even though he was running Borla headers and unported heads. It suggests that I am still leaving 10-15whp on the table for my car because of the lack of proper "tune". If you can afford it, I would love to see a before and after dyno readout of your car. This would also help you with the intial setup of the AFC because you can use the dyno's wideband to see where your A/F's currently stand and use that as a basis for your tweaks, and then see your results when you make the second run.

10-14-2009, 05:00 PM	#15
Charlie-III Scooby Specialist Member#: 30669 Join Date: Dec 2002 Chapter/Region: Tri-State Location: 07456, North NJ Vehicle: 1998 Legacy 2.5GT Silver Sleeper Wagon	Thanks guys. The car sorta feels wierd (probably due to fueling) as it's OK from ~1600-2600RPM, then stumbles a little bit, starts to pull better and then takes off @ ~4200RPM. I wonder if it's due to parts or something odd in fueling. Feels good though. Matt, I'm trying to do before/after dyno runs, sorta want my own Wideband O2 first though. Either way, I need to get a second O2 sensor bung put in.

10-14-2009, 10:29 PM	#17
ballitch Scooby Specialist Member#: 74907 Join Date: Nov 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: salem, OR Vehicle: 98 EJ22/EJ25heads Wrx Tranny,slowr than ish	I love this thread, not one hate post yet. The SAFC may be dated, but so are our cars, lol. I have a SAFC-II as well, but have been too lazy to install it. Maybe this thread is the push I need... ~Josh~

10-14-2009, 10:31 PM	#19
ballitch Scooby Specialist Member#: 74907 Join Date: Nov 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: salem, OR Vehicle: 98 EJ22/EJ25heads Wrx Tranny,slowr than ish	I love this thread, not one hate post yet. Usually you get alot of flak for asking about installing one of these dinosaur tuning tools. The SAFC may be dated, but so are our cars, lol. I have a SAFC-II as well, but have been too lazy to install it. Maybe this thread is the push I need... ~Josh~

10-14-2009, 11:16 PM	#20
Storm Scooby Guru Member#: 5218 Join Date: Mar 2001 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: NorthEast Ohio Vehicle: 96L FSP project 98RS DSP	^^^ We_get_the_picture_Josh...... Jay

10-15-2009, 09:38 PM	#25
reddevil Scooby Guru Member#: 64673 Join Date: Jun 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: portland Vehicle: 1990 Legacy wagon It goes 12.998 @ 109.44!	IF you can find a PLX R-500 its a great wideband unit because it has Wideband/EGT/Knock built in(with headphones for KNOCK), logging capabilities and multiple inputs/outputs.