Mmmmmm, alignment time

Chi_San · 10-23-2009, 11:59 PM

So, today, I did alignment, part 1. Car is a 2002 WRX Wagon, totally stock suspension, stock wheels, 205 55R16 tires. Basically, my rear toe was all out of whack, was all funky and I had a nice 0.27 degree thrust angle. Front camber, caster, and front toe were all screwed up as well (right wheel was toed out a bit).

I started with the rear. I adjusted the rear toe to 0.00 degrees left and right, I was anal enough to get it to a 0.01 degree thrust angle.

Then I focused on the front toe. I ran win toe, and got front toe to within 0.04 degrees. This interestingly enough brought the caster and camber back into spec.

Final figures: Rear toe is 0.00/0.01 degrees, rear camber is -1.5/-1.5 degrees.

Front cross toe was 0.04 degrees, front caster was 3.4/3.5 degrees, and front camber was -0.5/-0.6 degrees.

We didn't have time to play with my front camber today. Sorry I don't have before measurements, the alignment machine has no printer (hunter equipment), and I didn't write it down/take any pics. I was mostly focused on zeroing out the thrust angle, and getting win toe happy.

I'm actually happy with rear camber. I'm not so happy with front camber. How negative can I go on front camber using the stock cam adjustment bolts? How far can I go before I adversely effect tire wear on a 205 width tire? Keep in mind, I will be putting 195 65R15's on (Legacy SS wheel, I downgrade my front brakes to 1998 LGT front caliper brackets, rotors, and pads), and I probably will be getting some 225 50R16 tires soon as the tires currently on the car are trashed (cupping on the rear left tire, but still have usable tread left).

Any advice?

Oh, and caster readings were taken before and after toe adjustments, I did at least 3 sweeps for that today.

Being able to dick around for a few hours is awesome, especially since it was a pain in the ass to get the rear toe adjusted correctly on the right side for some reason.

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chazly413 · 10-24-2009, 12:11 AM

You'd have to be running some pretty good camber numbers and doing a lot of highway driving to get adverse camber effects from camber alone, at least -2.5. My front bolts maxed out at -1.1 degrees of camber, I don't know if one bolt was able to go higher than the other or not because I had a shop do my alignment.

Uncle Scotty · 10-24-2009, 12:57 AM

ya need more camber and caster up front

how 'bout some nice tops???

Chi_San · 10-24-2009, 01:40 AM

I actually am not a fan of caster. I don't like steering return, or heavy steering. If I had aftermarket suspension up front, I'd probably do caster adjustable tops, but from asking around, the camber plates aren't compatible with my suspension.

If I was doing rally, however, I would run more caster.

A lot more.

I'm going to see if I can get more time on the alignment rack next week and get that front to -1 degree camber in the front. I think that's good enough for me for now.

When I do AutoX, I'll look into doing more in-depth alignment tuning of my car. Heh, if it becomes a track only car, I'll even figure out how to destroy the ackerman angle for those tight turns.

Uncle Scotty · 10-24-2009, 01:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chi_San

I actually am not a fan of caster. I don't like steering return, or heavy steering. If I had aftermarket suspension up front, I'd probably do caster adjustable tops, but from asking around, the camber plates aren't compatible with my suspension.

If I was doing rally, however, I would run more caster.

A lot more.

I'm going to see if I can get more time on the alignment rack next week and get that front to -1 degree camber in the front. I think that's good enough for me for now.

When I do AutoX, I'll look into doing more in-depth alignment tuning of my car. Heh, if it becomes a track only car, I'll even figure out how to destroy the ackerman angle for those tight turns.

you GOTTA BE KIDDING

the above is just plain dumb....dumber than dumb

buy a ****ing prius

Chi_San · 10-24-2009, 01:59 AM

I'd get killed trying to mod a Prius (I might make good jerky). besides, I'm a college student, not employed, and couldn't afford one (or camber plates, AutoX fees, or just about anything at the moment). I already spent a bunch of grant money that was supposed to go towards living expenses on my car, getting it running again.

Uncle Scotty · 10-24-2009, 02:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chi_San

I'd get killed trying to mod a Prius (I might make good jerky). besides, I'm a college student, not employed, and couldn't afford one (or camber plates, AutoX fees, or just about anything at the moment). I already spent a bunch of grant money that was supposed to go towards living expenses on my car, getting it running again.

and have quite obviously NEVER driven a properly done car or you wouldnt have made such a totally uninformed and preposterous post

Chi_San · 10-24-2009, 02:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

and have quite obviously NEVER driven a properly done car or you wouldnt have made such a totally uninformed and preposterous post

Heh. Yeah, suspension tuning is something I'm new to. When I get bunk responses on forums, and it's not something you can look up anywhere else, what are you gonna do?

I just want to make the car handle better for spirited driving on the road, AutoX is done for the winter, and I seriously have no brakes for it right now ($20 napa pads will catch on fire if I try hard enough at the local track).

My rear toe was positive 1.2 degrees on one side, and positive 0.9 degrees on the other side before I did my alignment. I accomplished something today.

And when I have the money, camber plates front AND rear will be going on my car.

jamal · 10-24-2009, 03:48 AM

hey neat another alignment thread.

You need way more camber in the front, and it is impossible to get enough caster on a GD.

What's funny is that the 08s and Legacies come stock with more caster than you can get out of the old cars with the spec-c control arms, an ALK, and plates.

Chi_San · 10-24-2009, 01:59 PM

I'll start looking for some used camber plates w/ low miles on them here on the forums then.

romanlynch · 10-25-2009, 01:57 PM

thats about all the camber ull get in the front with stock bolts, u can get another set from summitracing.com for $20. as far as caster, u really need to do some reading... the more caster the better.

im running -2.8 camber F and -1.8 R with 0.0 toe F/R. ive been running this for DD for over a year with no tire wear. i have the stock cam bolts and an aftermarket in the front and an aftermarket set in the rear. the problem with the rear cam plates is ull have to take the backseat out to adjust it.

Chi_San · 10-25-2009, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by romanlynch

thats about all the camber ull get in the front with stock bolts, u can get another set from summitracing.com for $20. as far as caster, u really need to do some reading... the more caster the better.

im running -2.8 camber F and -1.8 R with 0.0 toe F/R. ive been running this for DD for over a year with no tire wear. i have the stock cam bolts and an aftermarket in the front and an aftermarket set in the rear. the problem with the rear cam plates is ull have to take the backseat out to adjust it.

I have a wagon, so that's actually not an issue.

What size tires are you running?

And, I do intend to increase the track of the car, front and rear, so eventually I'll have sedan suspension in the car. That will have to wait a long time (I'll be running 245 tires at that point).

When using camber plates, can you still run a strut bar? I assume they make strut bars that are compatible with the camber plates, but do they make such a thing for the wagon? I think the only ones I've even seen for the wagon are Whiteline (rear), and since I want to go with matching front and rear, I'd do whiteline in the front as well (blah, OCD kicking in there, at least it doesn't require EVERYTHING to be the same).

As for caster, there's always ways to get more. If worst comes to worst, and I want more, I can enlongate the mounting holes on the strut towers and move the mounting point for the upper mount back, and increase caster that way (which is actually how you have to adjust it on some vehicles). I'd rather not do that, obviously. The caster plates will give me an additional degree of caster, and I can get suspension with an additional degree of caster built into it as well, bringing my total caster to 5.5 degrees in the front, if I'm remembering my figures right as far as the plates and suspension stuff. That might not be the 7 degrees that some later Subies came with, or the 14 degrees some Lincolns came with, but it's better than stock.

chazly413 · 10-25-2009, 02:59 PM

Go for the rear strut bar, but I'd spend my money on other things than a front strut bar.

Uncle Scotty · 10-25-2009, 07:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chi_San

I'll start looking for some used camber plates w/ low miles on them here on the forums then.

http://performanceshock.com/noltec/c...unt-pair-solid

works just fine with dspecs

and for the rear

http://performanceshock.com/noltec/c...-bolt-kit-14mm

and done....

Chi_San · 10-25-2009, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

http://performanceshock.com/noltec/c...unt-pair-solid

works just fine with dspecs

and for the rear

http://performanceshock.com/noltec/c...-bolt-kit-14mm

and done....

TY! Bookmarked for now.

romanlynch · 10-26-2009, 08:14 PM

yea i def wouldnt elongate the strut mount holes, i had asked about that before and was told id prolly have to shave the mount some to make it fit right. the 04 STI control arms add caster, u can get ALK kit so yea there are options.

im running 225/50/16 on the stock rims, my plan is to go to 245/40/17 for next year when i start tracking again.

im not sure if they make a strut tower bar that works with camber plates, from what ive read the front doesnt really need it, the rear for u however would help some.

Chi_San · 10-26-2009, 10:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by romanlynch

yea i def wouldnt elongate the strut mount holes, i had asked about that before and was told id prolly have to shave the mount some to make it fit right. the 04 STI control arms add caster, u can get ALK kit so yea there are options.

im running 225/50/16 on the stock rims, my plan is to go to 245/40/17 for next year when i start tracking again.

im not sure if they make a strut tower bar that works with camber plates, from what ive read the front doesnt really need it, the rear for u however would help some.

I won't worry about the front then.

Alright, I have a pretty clear idea now on what to do with my car.

Excellent, and thanks a ton for the help.

wrxSIN · 10-27-2009, 04:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

http://performanceshock.com/noltec/c...unt-pair-solid

recommend the clubsport versions yes?

Uncle Scotty · 10-27-2009, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wrxSIN

recommend the clubsport versions yes?

nah...albatross

wrxSIN · 10-27-2009, 11:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

nah...albatross

no really, the internet doesnt show sarcasm

10-23-2009, 11:59 PM	#1
Chi_San Scooby Guru Member#: 53558 Join Date: Jan 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Deadford, OR Vehicle: 2002 WRX Wagon Silver	Mmmmmm, alignment time So, today, I did alignment, part 1. Car is a 2002 WRX Wagon, totally stock suspension, stock wheels, 205 55R16 tires. Basically, my rear toe was all out of whack, was all funky and I had a nice 0.27 degree thrust angle. Front camber, caster, and front toe were all screwed up as well (right wheel was toed out a bit). I started with the rear. I adjusted the rear toe to 0.00 degrees left and right, I was anal enough to get it to a 0.01 degree thrust angle. Then I focused on the front toe. I ran win toe, and got front toe to within 0.04 degrees. This interestingly enough brought the caster and camber back into spec. Final figures: Rear toe is 0.00/0.01 degrees, rear camber is -1.5/-1.5 degrees. Front cross toe was 0.04 degrees, front caster was 3.4/3.5 degrees, and front camber was -0.5/-0.6 degrees. We didn't have time to play with my front camber today. Sorry I don't have before measurements, the alignment machine has no printer (hunter equipment), and I didn't write it down/take any pics. I was mostly focused on zeroing out the thrust angle, and getting win toe happy. I'm actually happy with rear camber. I'm not so happy with front camber. How negative can I go on front camber using the stock cam adjustment bolts? How far can I go before I adversely effect tire wear on a 205 width tire? Keep in mind, I will be putting 195 65R15's on (Legacy SS wheel, I downgrade my front brakes to 1998 LGT front caliper brackets, rotors, and pads), and I probably will be getting some 225 50R16 tires soon as the tires currently on the car are trashed (cupping on the rear left tire, but still have usable tread left). Any advice? Oh, and caster readings were taken before and after toe adjustments, I did at least 3 sweeps for that today. Being able to dick around for a few hours is awesome, especially since it was a pain in the ass to get the rear toe adjusted correctly on the right side for some reason. * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

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10-24-2009, 12:11 AM	#2
chazly413 Scooby Specialist Member#: 151079 Join Date: Jun 2007 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Ellicott City, MD / UMBC Vehicle: 2005 2.5RS RBP RIP Rev	You'd have to be running some pretty good camber numbers and doing a lot of highway driving to get adverse camber effects from camber alone, at least -2.5. My front bolts maxed out at -1.1 degrees of camber, I don't know if one bolt was able to go higher than the other or not because I had a shop do my alignment.

10-24-2009, 12:57 AM	#3
Uncle Scotty Scooby Guru Member#: 16200 Join Date: Mar 2002 Vehicle: bah straw and coal straw and coal as always	ya need more camber and caster up front how 'bout some nice tops???

10-24-2009, 01:40 AM	#4
Chi_San Scooby Guru Member#: 53558 Join Date: Jan 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Deadford, OR Vehicle: 2002 WRX Wagon Silver	I actually am not a fan of caster. I don't like steering return, or heavy steering. If I had aftermarket suspension up front, I'd probably do caster adjustable tops, but from asking around, the camber plates aren't compatible with my suspension. If I was doing rally, however, I would run more caster. A lot more. I'm going to see if I can get more time on the alignment rack next week and get that front to -1 degree camber in the front. I think that's good enough for me for now. When I do AutoX, I'll look into doing more in-depth alignment tuning of my car. Heh, if it becomes a track only car, I'll even figure out how to destroy the ackerman angle for those tight turns.

10-24-2009, 01:59 AM	#6
Chi_San Scooby Guru Member#: 53558 Join Date: Jan 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Deadford, OR Vehicle: 2002 WRX Wagon Silver	I'd get killed trying to mod a Prius (I might make good jerky). besides, I'm a college student, not employed, and couldn't afford one (or camber plates, AutoX fees, or just about anything at the moment). I already spent a bunch of grant money that was supposed to go towards living expenses on my car, getting it running again.

10-24-2009, 03:48 AM	#9
jamal Scooby Specialist Member#: 71875 Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Compton Vehicle: 98 2.5GT my wheels fit	hey neat another alignment thread. You need way more camber in the front, and it is impossible to get enough caster on a GD. What's funny is that the 08s and Legacies come stock with more caster than you can get out of the old cars with the spec-c control arms, an ALK, and plates.

10-24-2009, 01:59 PM	#10
Chi_San Scooby Guru Member#: 53558 Join Date: Jan 2004 Chapter/Region: NWIC Location: Deadford, OR Vehicle: 2002 WRX Wagon Silver	I'll start looking for some used camber plates w/ low miles on them here on the forums then.

10-25-2009, 01:57 PM	#11
romanlynch NASIOC Supporter Member#: 126684 Join Date: Sep 2006 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: wilmington de Vehicle: 02 wrx PLATINUM silver baby	thats about all the camber ull get in the front with stock bolts, u can get another set from summitracing.com for $20. as far as caster, u really need to do some reading... the more caster the better. im running -2.8 camber F and -1.8 R with 0.0 toe F/R. ive been running this for DD for over a year with no tire wear. i have the stock cam bolts and an aftermarket in the front and an aftermarket set in the rear. the problem with the rear cam plates is ull have to take the backseat out to adjust it.

10-25-2009, 02:59 PM	#13
chazly413 Scooby Specialist Member#: 151079 Join Date: Jun 2007 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: Ellicott City, MD / UMBC Vehicle: 2005 2.5RS RBP RIP Rev	Go for the rear strut bar, but I'd spend my money on other things than a front strut bar.

10-26-2009, 08:14 PM	#16
romanlynch NASIOC Supporter Member#: 126684 Join Date: Sep 2006 Chapter/Region: MAIC Location: wilmington de Vehicle: 02 wrx PLATINUM silver baby	yea i def wouldnt elongate the strut mount holes, i had asked about that before and was told id prolly have to shave the mount some to make it fit right. the 04 STI control arms add caster, u can get ALK kit so yea there are options. im running 225/50/16 on the stock rims, my plan is to go to 245/40/17 for next year when i start tracking again. im not sure if they make a strut tower bar that works with camber plates, from what ive read the front doesnt really need it, the rear for u however would help some.