Help from audio gurus

[STIFLYBY_RANGER]

Im building my first system, im into go fast bits usually, but its time to put a little boom in the trunk.

Im deciding between 2 RF punch 10's (ported) or 1 mtx TC712 12. Im looking for a real nice thud, but I want quality. I know nothing about audio so I was hoping someone could steer me in the right direction. Any info would be great.

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[BlKsUbYkId]

Im not a big fan of the RF punch series. I work in the car audio department at BestBuy and I think those things are cheaply made. The other day an employee (like an idiot) walked to our 10in P1 display and literally "punched" the sub softly and cracked it. This happens alot to our Fosgates and Kenwoods. I like MTX myself and Im actually looking into the MTX Thunderlink. You could also look at Alpine E-series especially if your going with a ported box. I personally would recommend a sealed box for our cars, but I ran a single Alpine Type-R in a ported box and that thing THUMPS too much for me! I had to put the gain on 1/4 power and it still shook the car. I personally listen to hiphop, but take into consideration the type of music you listen to when choosing a sub. Pay attention to RMS, ohms, and whether its SVC or DVC also. What amp will you be running?

PM me if you have questions

[manjambles]

^^ yo i dono about you but our best buy is gettin MTX, YES (thanks circuit ****ty)

but yea I had a customer (<autotech) today that busted p3's on the RF 1000w, it also had to do with the subs being ran at 1 ohm then 2ohms hard on a crappy kenwood amp.

i would def say MTX, i suggest them to customers that want a good sounding sub that will last... so they can spend there money on go fast parts and not dealing with switching subs and amps for months at a time= headaches

im all about memphis

[WDPballer]

Go with a single 10" if your looking for quality, I have a JL10W6 in a sealed AI enclosure and love it. Id check out your friends systems or even find a real local audio shop and get input from them. A lot of it depends on the music you listen to also, so do some research before you jump in and spend 500+ on a sub and amp combo you may not like after a few days.

[BlKsUbYkId]

Originally Posted by manjambles

^^ yo i dono about you but our best buy is gettin MTX, YES (thanks circuit ****ty)

but yea I had a customer (<autotech) today that busted p3's on the RF 1000w, it also had to do with the subs being ran at 1 ohm then 2ohms hard on a crappy kenwood amp.

i would def say MTX, i suggest them to customers that want a good sounding sub that will last... so they can spend there money on go fast parts and not dealing with switching subs and amps for months at a time= headaches

im all about memphis

We dont carry the "good stuff" but we can sure get it from our local vendor. All we got it Alpine, RF, Infinity, Kenwood, Sony, and JVC. We literally have 30 sub boxes and 10 subs lOl (mainly 10s). Our store doesnt care for car audio, its all GPS now

Originally Posted by WDPballer

Go with a single 10" if your looking for quality, I have a JL10W6 in a sealed AI enclosure and love it. Id check out your friends systems or even find a real local audio shop and get input from them. A lot of it depends on the music you listen to also, so do some research before you jump in and spend 500+ on a sub and amp combo you may not like after a few days.

Yes do alot of research before buying. And if possibly try to listen to the set up you want, maybe go to a shop, listen to a buddys system, and make sure to ask questions. A 10in sub will give you a clean, crisp, sharp sounding bass with a quick response time where as a 12in will give you that deep, heavy, booming bass which tends to respond slower. And make sure to get a quality amp (I believe is most important) im not saying spend alot of $$$ but quality is everything in car audio.

[wrxkyle]

dude, i know my fair share about audio and have been blown away by this little polk 8" running off 160watts, doesn't reach super low like if rap but i listen to rock and even though it's in an old kicker 8" bass tube-ish ported desighn it sounds great. what music do you listen to and what are your goals? do you want a ghetto-thumping system with harsh highs and deep lows and nothing in between or do you actually want to listen to "music" (sorry i'm a bit of a rap hater lol , i can only stand it with a good bass line on a good system. like the way it feels more than sounds )

two 10's generally are louder than 1 12 at the same wattage, but the 12 will go lower, i do recommend the jl12/13w6 speakers, great sound, but $$$ check out the elemental desighns stuff, i think they have nine 1 amps (1200WRMS amp, underrated) on sale for 195 or something stupid like that, but they are on back order. 5 year warrenty. i hear their 13.av2 subs are good too, just one will give you all the bass you could ever need, and i hear they reach ridiculously low.

good luck and post up with a budget and goals and what music you like to put on

oh, are you going to upgrade your speakers so the bass doesn't drown them out? do at least the fronts and amp them. i think you would be very happy with a 5 channell amp with about 200 to the sub with one 12 or 1 nicer 10, and a set of components up front or a 4 channell amp with two channels running the fronts and 2 bridged to drive the sub.

[hookedontronics]

I'd recommend jl but remember if u go with ported your looking at nearly twice the cubic volume thus a much larger enclosure. Jl w3 go for around 130-150

[Back Road Runner]

Budget?


RF - not great
MTX - not great
JL - expensive but good

There are of course another hundred brands that we could run through. Store bought, Alpine will more then likely be your better route, however, there is this thing called the internet that opens up your options FAR away from the very few mainstream brands and models you will commonly find, many of quick are relative junk compared to what's actually available worldwide.

Steps in choose a sub:
1) Budget - what is it?

2) Enclosure size - what are you willing to give up for trunk space?

3) Desired frequency response - want a light bottom end and strong upper bass or flat or a heavy bottom end? How high will it need to play cleanly, i.e. will it be paired to stock speakers or good set of components and what crossover frequency will be used for said speakers?

4) Desired sound - light and airy, thick and heavy, smooth, punchy, articulate, laid back, and 100 other descriptive terms that can define the sound/presentation.


Now out of the 1000 or so actual brands and models of subs that are available, only a handful of them will fit your above criteria well. These few subs will be a good fit for your needs, goals, and preference. Everything else out there will be less so, and many will be completely wrong for what you're looking for. This means if you blinding pick a random brand and model sub, you have a 99.5% chance that it is not an ideal fit sub for what you're trying to do. 50% of that 99.5% of wrong hardware will still sound relatively decent, will be close enough to be content with. So in reality, you have about a 50/50 chance of being happy or being disappointed with what you pick. However, you really only have a 0.5% chance of buying something that is truly outstanding in terms of everything you ever hoped it would be. This is just blind guessing. Once you start gaining knowledge, researching, and demoing a wide array of hardware, these number change drastically. You will start to know which brands and models are a good fit and which aren't'. There's less guess work as you turn an increasingly large amount of unknowns into knowns.

Answer 1 through 4 in some detail. From here, we can actually point you to something that will actually fit your goals decently.

[Audiosavvy]

Holy **** there's some bad info in this thread (not counting the last post)


First of all, if you're judging a woofer's build quality by how well it can take a punch, yoar doing it wrong.

Second, VERY VERY VERY VERY few chain-store employees know their ass from a hole in the ground when it comes to stuff like this. The demos are done in a big-ass open warehouse with amp settings all over the place. There is NO way to properly demo a set of woofers (midrange/tweeters MAYBE) in a big store like that.

Third, the size of the woofer doesn't mean a DAMN thing in terms of how 'punchy' or 'smooth' it is or how 'low' it goes. It's all about the design of the woofer, the enclosure, the vehicle, the adjustments, and the vehicle in which it's installed.

An 18" woofer will not go any lower than an 8" woofer, though it MIGHT be louder at a lower frequency because less excursion is required to reproduce the same frequency at the same volume. But it's not that simple. I've had and used 8" woofers and 10" woofers that make 15/18" woofers look like child's play in terms of low bass.



My suggestion- the MTX. Rockford Fosgate, for everything but their amps, is a joke in my book. Their door speakers seem to be cheaply made and sound like ass and a half, and their woofers (though some are fairly solid) are nothing to write home about.

MTX, on the other hand, tends to have better build-quality and be a bit more quality oriented when it comes to subwoofers.

[STIFLYBY_RANGER]

Thanks for the info all. I guess there is a good bit of info that is needed before a good answer can be given. I have not picked an amp yet.

budget Id say 200 or so on the box/sub combo, another 200 on the amp, and id say probably 150-175 on the wires,cap,ect.

desire: I want somthing with a deep smooth heavy bass note. I do not want a "ghetto" rumble rattle sound. I dont know if that helps.

[Audiosavvy]

You do not need a capacitor, so throw that out of the budget. There's no need to spend more than roughly $60-80 on all wiring. You can of course spend less for quality equipment, but that should be the top-end of the budget for wiring. Use the difference for sound damping in the important areas.

The 'ghetto rumble rattle' sound comes from a poorly adjusted setup in cars with little or no sound damping, as well as improperly built enclosures.

[Back Road Runner]

So budget = $600

Realize that you don't need to spend that much if you don't want to. Just because you have the money doesn't mean you need to spend it all.

That's plenty for almost anything really short of something geared for high SPL.

The rattle sound is from a poorly prepped car as Audiosavvy pointed to. This is where some investment in sound deadening is important. You want to use mat (butyl/alum) to damp panels (25%-50% coverage, mainly on the larger, flatter panels), foam to decouple/separate parts from rattling against each other, and mass loaded vinyl/lead barrier to block sound from getting into/out of the car (100% coverage, solid, blocking wall). You might want to split maybe $50 or so of that budget to sound damping materials. Good, robust products will come from brands like Second Skin, Cascade, and Sound Deadener Showdown.


So you want a smoother sounding sub. From the way it sounds (very short description on your part) you prefer bass notes that are smoother, fuller in sound, thick. Is this correct?

Now realize that a smoother, thicker sound will generally give you less articulation of note. It won't necessarily be muddy and blurred together, but the gearing does being to lean that way. Some options can be lighter, more articulate, with better separation of note. If of course all depends on personal preference and what you're looking for. It's all a matter of trade-offs. You can't have everything, so many times you pick and choose to what you personally prefer.

I just want you to verify specifically what you want to hear from the sub. Describe what the note should sound like in your sense of what you think is ideal.

As well, what kind of box size do you want? How much trunk space are you willing to give up here? This will in part determine what you can run.

[bpang1]

I have a RF Punch Stage 2 10" DVC - I've ben happy with it but its not like I pound it a lot or anything...it is just taking care of the portion of music that my door speakers can't do correctly.

Plus my car rattles too much to play it super-loud.

[robbieb]

Originally Posted by Audiosavvy

Holy **** there's some bad info in this thread (not counting the last post)

Third, the size of the woofer doesn't mean a DAMN thing in terms of how 'punchy' or 'smooth' it is or how 'low' it goes. It's all about the design of the woofer, the enclosure, the vehicle, the adjustments, and the vehicle in which it's installed.

Agreed. The box and vehicle make more of a difference.

[Back Road Runner]

I'll make a small note.

The perceivable audio spectrum we humans can hear is 20Hz to 20,000Hz, give or take a little.

Out of this entire spectrum a subwoofer plays from 20Hz to 100Hz, sometimes a narrower range then this, sometimes a little higher if needed. This represents about 23% of the audio spectrum from a logarithmic perspective. A standard 6.5" woofer will cover from 100Hz to around 3000Hz and a 1" tweeter will cover from 3000Hz to 20,000Hz.
Subwoofer - 23.3%
Mid woofer - 49.2%
Tweeter - 27.5%
This will give a relative scale of importance in terms of information the hardware is providing. Realistically, a lot of music isn't playing much meaningful info below 40Hz and most folks try to make the mid woofer play lower then it probably should, more so crossing lower at 80Hz or even 60Hz at times. Many times the tweeter also plays lower, more around 2500Hz or 2000Hz. If we change the configuration to the sub playing 40Hz to 80Hz, the mid woofer from 80Hz to 2000Hz, and the tweeter everything above 20,000Hz, it's more like this:
Subwoofer - 10%
Mid woofer - 46.7%
Tweeter - 33.3%
In this configuration, one that is used by a lot of people, the relative importance of the sub is actually quite small to the rest of the system.

I'll also note that the subwoofer typically accounts for half of the overall system cost. This includes the full range speakers, amps for the full range speakers, and the HU. The sub, sub amp, and enclosure typically represent about half of the total cost of the system and only realistically provides about 10% to 20% of the total information in the audio.

Even so, I still take importance on properly picking hardware. Even though I personally consider the sub as the last part of a system build, not the first, I still take a lot of effort to research and build a package that will do the end job competently. Once you get pretty serious about car audio, system design is far from trivial. For example, in my Forester over the last 3-4 years I've had over two dozen different tweeters, mid woofers, and subs in the car in a variety of configurations. Half of it was just playing with new/neat hardware and half of it was trying to get to an end sound that I really enjoyed. Sometimes it's trial and error running a variety of hardware to see how things sound and how they work together. Research alone doesn't always get you the exact answers. Sometimes you just have to try hardware out to see if it is what it's hyped to be. Sometimes it is; sometimes it isn't. That's sort of how it goes.

I'll leave off at this. Don't expect perfection on the first try. Even though we may suggest various good products and give you options you can use, they may or may not be ideal for you even if they are good in their own right. Personal preference plays a big roll. As well, don't feel constrained to one product. For example, try sub A out. Run it for a while. You either like it or you don't. If you don't, sell it, and buy sub B. Repeat as much as needed until you find something you can truly be happy with. If you buy and sell used, you can typically keep costs low, low enough to not really lose money doing so. All I can suggest is to research a LOT. Research and keep researching. Every purchase should be an informed decision, not a blind one. Keep at it until you end up with the ideal hardware package for your goals. This not only includes subs but full range speakers, HU, etc., the entire system really. It should be an evolution, a continual shaping towards your ideal.

[STIFLYBY_RANGER]

Though the overal sound is important, the reason Im building the system is for show. I have every go fast part or modification you can dream of minus a sleeved block. When Im not doing time attack I do shows maybe 30 or so a year. Having just my batt relocated in the truck doesnt score to well, I typically place and have even seen best of show a few times, but having the system will help. so as for the tunkspace question i could lose half or a bit more without any problem. the box i would like to be ported. and the sound, this is a tough question for me, the best way I can describe it is boom not bang..somthing that thuds hard but its low you feel it more in your chest than you actually hear it. somthing smooth... ill try to get on you tube and find somthing that is close to what im talking about.

you prefer bass notes that are smoother, fuller in sound, thick. Is this correct?

- yes

[Back Road Runner]

So is this mainly for show or are you trying to compete in SPL/SQ too? I'm just wondering if looks are going to be the main factor over actual sound.

You won't find any useful audio from Youtube. Music gets recorded pretty crappily, especially bass. If you're doing something for looks, dig around. Also look on Cardomain and search. You might also want to hit up www.diymobileaudio.com and look in the Build Logs section for some ideals. A few folks have made some really stellar installs.

The feel in your chest hit is a bit of a speed issue. I personally haven't used many subs that have been capable of that visceral sense effortlessly. There has really only been one sub that has impressed me in this regard, but unfortunately it has long been discontinued. There was a small company called Sonicraft that build some ok subs for home audio use. Back some time Madisound had Sonicraft build them a budget Aura sub in a sense using Aura's widely loved NRT motor. They ended up with their SC12NRT woofer, a relatively plain 12" woofer using the NRT motor, 15mm xmax, 300w rms, 3 cu.ft. sealed with a roll off point around 30Hz, a good home audio woofer. It sounds really quite good and has a visceral presentation I haven't really heard from any other sub I've run. Now I haven't used a ton of subs, so that isn't saying too much. I do kind of wish they were still available because I'd love to see some used.

For a thick sound, TC Sounds made some great sounding monster subs that were motor strong and gave a thick, full presentation. The company was destroyed by the owners but a few units still exist under the Audiopulse name over at Parts Express, and many of the molels are still being produced, it seems, under the Sound Splinter name. The downside is that these woofers a very low Qts, basically means they are motor dominant and as a result suffer from a bit early roll off of the frequency response. They end up being a little better suited for ported applications but they are also tiny box subs meaning the port length is massively long. For example, the Sound Splinter RL-p 10" woofer fits in a 0.45 cu.ft. ported box, tiny right? But then the port size needs to be about 30 sq.in (say a 10"x3" slot port) and needs to be a whopping 125" long; that's over 10 feet! Haha...a very good candidate for a passive radiator enclosure which is very doable but adds a bit of cost for the PRs.

You can run them sealed, but the bottom end will end up sounding a bit anemic. High Qts woofers in sealed enclosures or ported enclosures are what typically gets you the deep low end response.

A good middle ground sub that works well on a budget is RE Audio's SE subs. I've run one of their SE12s and was quite pleased with it in a ported enclosure. They play very low and retain a lot of control and definition on the bottom end. The note isn't super thick or smooth though but is a good middle ground sound where it still has good body to the note. The overall sound is clean and neutral. As well, there's a light kick/energy to the presentation of the notes that does make the sub fun to listen to and a little less mundane then some. Two in about 6 cu.ft. ported off around 1kW will do quite well in terms of output and a clean and very deep sound. These subs do dig quite low when ported and in-car will provide a very strong bottom end. You're going to trade some smoothness for cleanliness and definition of note but not too much. It's a great bang for the buck sub though at their online market price of around $150 or so.

[STIFLYBY_RANGER]

Yea its mainly show.. I still dont want it to sound crappy and I want solid product names. so a lanzar amp and xxx subs arent gonna work

[exrage]

I am a big fan of the older polk Subs if you can get your hands on one that has not been used w/ a non-ported enclosure. I listen to mostly ska/punk music as well as some brass band stuff. I have a excelon 500 rms at 4 ohm pushing my dx12 for a nice sound. You should be able to get a similar setup for about 600 bucks if you do install and build yourself...

[Back Road Runner]

Ok, so flashy is a big deal then.

Well, you might look at DIYMA subs. They aren't produced now, but they are still traded around often enough. Run a pair inverted in in a few cubic feet. You get exceptional sound quality, a smooth sound, although not thick/heavy I point them out mainly for flash and price point. You can get one for around $100-$125 most of the time and there's a lot of shiny metal to look at when inverted.
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a90...2291Medium.jpg

I'll note that the cone is thin (purposely) and can be crushed like a pop con by the motor if internal enclosure pressures are too high. You can't run too small of a box with them when using higher power levels, despite being ideally suited for 0.5 cu.ft. It's better to have them in 1 cu.ft. plus, larger = safer, and they'll happily run to xmax/xmech without issue. The larger box will also give you a little more on the bottom end. Ported works really well too if you want a heavy low end. Old thread of mine:
http://www.diymobileaudio.com/forum/...yma-sub-p.html
I'll note I've been very content with this sub, but I have kept power levels low on it for obvious reasons. A pair off 600-800w will still get significantly loud, and a ported design will get you very low and with a big, thick, and smooth sound. The big benefit of the DIYMA sub is its transparency. The big drawback is its fragility. However, they are also not expensive at all which really does offset the drawback even if you're not going to be so gentle with it.

A lot of flash for the dollar, buttery smooth sound, exceptional sound quality, and potentially a rather hefty bottom end (if ported), it does seem like it might be a good fit for your goals.

[Audiosavvy]

I'm not going to make a 30-minute long post like BRB has been so kind to do, but I will say that the first woofer that came to mind when he described your goals and you confirmed it was the Alpine Type-R, the most current version. They are not quite as efficient as some, but have VERY good low-bass, are VERY smooth, and somewhat punchy. They are certainly not what some would consider to be hummy or floppy.

They don't have quite the upper kick of some and aren't quite as good for discerning certain notes up high (upper SUB-bass) but by no means are muddy sounding or dull. But they WILL kick you in the chest and are quite impressive in small enclosures when compared to the performance of many other woofers in small enclosures. They are happiest with a healthy amount of power. 300+ RMS per woofer is pretty much a requirement.

When in a ported enclosure, they are downright impressive in terms of output, especially at low low frequencies, and are always smooth. They are best paired (whether in a sealed or ported enclosure) to a midrange speaker that has decently strong midbass.

[Back Road Runner]

I've listened to a few iterations of the Type-R sub. I do agree, it's a nice mid pack sub. Depending on specific goals, there may be better options still. Alpine in general is a safe better though, as is Boston Acoustic.

From a car show standpoint, I am curious what the better route may be. The problem arises with how much flash you're trying to shoot for. Do you simply want a nice box and a pretty logo or intend to show a lot of chrome or other eye candy? How much do you need and of what? Sometimes name brands are important to have simply for brand recognition. Other times you want something unique, something that makes people ask what it is or something that people stare at and drool while slowly forming the word shiny.

[STIFLYBY_RANGER]

well the great thing about my set up is its subtle.. all blackout except for my engine bay. I hate chrome, black and red are the only colors allowed. minus my facotry interior which I cant wait to get rid of....one day. so as for "flash" I think thats gonna be mainly in the box, color, lighting ect. but i wanted to make sure im using a good sub/ amp combo. the good sound Im looking for along with a good quality part. basically weve eliminated the punch series all together no good feed back on those. the mtx is good but what might be better are type-rs.. this is what im getting so far. I have to hand it to you guys, this aspect of customizing is about as in depth as modifying the engine bay goodies. so now that i think weve narrowed down the subs.. what amp to push either type-r or mtx TC712. ?

[boostdog]

i really like the Zapco I-600 I-Force amp for the $..this would be more than enough power for a typer and will allow you to expand in the future.

honestly there are alot of options here...

here's how i shop for anything audio related - don't get caught up in names and flash...looks at the specs of each and every item. i always ask to see the manual and pour through the spec list.

look for things like low thd / sig to noise ratio / sensitivity etc.

[Back Road Runner]

Well, for black, you might look at MB Quart. The pricing is decent, the sound quality (haven't heard personally) is often described as excellent, and they are a high Qts design which will give you good bottom end in a sealed configuration.