transmission fluid arguement with uncle! please post facts!

filipin0y · 11-19-2009, 09:26 PM

2002 wrx stick
so im running the stock transmission fluid from the factory and my 1st gear tends to grind and my 3rd to 4th tends to grind at HIGH RPMS. and i know that these trannys are picky with oil so i read around and i decided to buy the 1qt motul and 3qt of redline lightweight shockproof from andrew. i herd this mixture was a dream.

now heres the thing,
i asked my uncle to help me change my transmission fluid and hes arguing saying that its not my fluid causing the problem since i just changed it with factory tranny fluid. hes saying that the oil doesnt matter and that NASIOC is just telling me to change my oil because they want me to spend my money??

he also says that any brand will work just as long as its OIL...he keeps telling me he knows all about transmissions and that i could even put cooking oil in there and itll work...

what can you guys say about this? im going to let him read this so educated mechanics please post!

btw he drives a 1991 porche carrera for years and other stick shift cars his life but never driven a subaru and has no knowledge to the 2002 tranny or even subarus in general.

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ciper · 11-19-2009, 09:39 PM

It's your driving habits that caused the problem. Different lube may help improve the situation but it won't fix the root cause of the problem, worn synchronizers. Learn to double clutch and follow the maintenance schedule for fluid change.

tallterror · 11-19-2009, 09:41 PM

just posted this in your thread in general but i got closed soooo...

well I'm not exactly what you'd call an "educated mechanic" but the point of better tranny oil is to allow the synchros to work better (aka less grinding) and also reduces wear on everything else. like you said the 5mt is extremely picky about oil because the synchros along with most of the tranny design is not exactly the strongest ever and is extremely dated.

next time he says to put cooking oil in it ask him if he'd put that in the engine too. just like engines transmissions need specific oil which definitely isn't cooking oil.

and i hate saying this but i completely agree w/ i_c_the_light's bluntness this time.

fastwrx25 · 11-19-2009, 10:00 PM

I've tried diff oils and cocktails in my 5mt and some work better than others.

uncle scotty's cocktail works good, but more recently I'm runnin 2.2L motul300 75w90 and 1.5L redline lw shockproof that I had leftover from using US cocktail. I put the remaining .8L motul 300 in the rear diff

best I've tried so far. next time I want to try 100% motul 300 in the tranny.

Uncle Scotty · 11-19-2009, 10:18 PM

yer uncle is a total idiot and you just go ahead and do what you planned

/ thread

Back Road Runner · 11-19-2009, 11:36 PM

Your uncle's somewhat right. In a very large way gear oil is gear oil. Many, many, many are pretty much the same thing. There are a small handful of additive packages developed a long time ago that all the companies use. The R&D cost is too high for any newer/smaller company to do their own work and develop something better. Most of what the various companies do is simply add extra things (gimmicks) into the oil and call it special. Some of these additives help in one way or another. Some of these additives are crap and make things worse, potentially causing damage. In a large sense, anything you buy will work fine for most vehicles.

The Subaru transmission is somewhat picky about the viscosity of the gear oil and good syncro function. That is true. However, no gear oil will magically make things super nor will any gear oil fix problems that already exist. If you're grinding gears often, your syncros might already be bad. Worn parts are worn parts no matter what oil is in it. The question for you then because is it a viscosity issue or plain wear?

The other thing is it is now winter time and temps are dropping. Normal petroleum based oils start to get kind of thick and begin to start functioning poorly until they warm up. Switching to a synthetic based oil with a much lower pour point will allow for better immediate operation during winter use. Now with you personally living in California, this isn't an issue, but folks elsewhere in the US can benefit.

As for your uncle, send him here. Let him visit the forum and decide for himself. Frankly, what do we have to gain for you to buy or not buy anything?

The cooking oil comment is funny. It's true oil is oil, and even cooking oil will function. The problem is more so shear protection and cold to hot viscosity. Oil is inherently basic, but the additive package does make it function better.

Uncle Scotty · 11-20-2009, 12:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back Road Runner

Your uncle's somewhat right. In a very large way gear oil is gear oil. Many, many, many are pretty much the same thing. There are a small handful of additive packages developed a long time ago that all the companies use. The R&D cost is too high for any newer/smaller company to do their own work and develop something better. Most of what the various companies do is simply add extra things (gimmicks) into the oil and call it special. Some of these additives help in one way or another. Some of these additives are crap and make things worse, potentially causing damage. In a large sense, anything you buy will work fine for most vehicles.

The Subaru transmission is somewhat picky about the viscosity of the gear oil and good syncro function. That is true. However, no gear oil will magically make things super nor will any gear oil fix problems that already exist. If you're grinding gears often, your syncros might already be bad. Worn parts are worn parts no matter what oil is in it. The question for you then because is it a viscosity issue or plain wear?

The other thing is it is now winter time and temps are dropping. Normal petroleum based oils start to get kind of thick and begin to start functioning poorly until they warm up. Switching to a synthetic based oil with a much lower pour point will allow for better immediate operation during winter use. Now with you personally living in California, this isn't an issue, but folks elsewhere in the US can benefit.

As for your uncle, send him here. Let him visit the forum and decide for himself. Frankly, what do we have to gain for you to buy or not buy anything?

The cooking oil comment is funny. It's true oil is oil, and even cooking oil will function. The problem is more so shear protection and cold to hot viscosity. Oil is inherently basic, but the additive package does make it function better.

no.....no it isnt

animal, vegetable, and mineral oils have some specific differences that preclude the use of animal and vegetable based oils in automotive applications
resistance to oxidization and working temperature range are 2 that are are important to consider

Go350zGo · 11-20-2009, 12:28 AM

i know very little with regards to this topic, but if your tranny is grinding gears at high RPMs i think it may not be a fluid issue. i just had my tranny and diff fluids flushed today and put redline back in. the reason i did this was because my shifts were notchier/harder than normal. Upon doing this and driving around with the new fluids for a few minutes i noticed that my shifting was back to normal. so i guess the answer to your question is use redline fluids

good luck

filipin0y · 11-20-2009, 12:54 AM

alotta people on this forum had the same exact problem as i did and with this mixture of tranny oil it helped alot

filipin0y · 11-20-2009, 12:58 AM

i just need someone to explain to him in one simple post how he's wrong. and with the way i drive, i rarely take it to its limit. and i dont track it or street race. so no engine or tranny abuse.

filipin0y · 11-20-2009, 01:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Back Road Runner

Your uncle's somewhat right. In a very large way gear oil is gear oil. Many, many, many are pretty much the same thing. There are a small handful of additive packages developed a long time ago that all the companies use. The R&D cost is too high for any newer/smaller company to do their own work and develop something better. Most of what the various companies do is simply add extra things (gimmicks) into the oil and call it special. Some of these additives help in one way or another. Some of these additives are crap and make things worse, potentially causing damage. In a large sense, anything you buy will work fine for most vehicles.

how so? why is it brands such as valvoline or mobil 1 or subaru oem factory oil cause gears to grind while other brands such as redline or motul actually stop the grinding?

rexman2002 · 11-20-2009, 01:23 AM

I can bet money, that you're not running a factory gear oil right now. If you did you wouldn't have an issue with grining, UNLESS your transmission is ****ed up. Who did the gear oil change? You or the dealer? What's the supposed factory oil that you're currently running.

filipin0y · 11-20-2009, 01:25 AM

i went to the dealership and asked for a tranny fluid change along with the rear diff

rexman2002 · 11-20-2009, 01:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filipin0y

how so? why is it brands such as valvoline or mobil 1 or subaru oem factory oil cause gears to grind while other brands such as redline or motul actually stop the grinding?

with those 2 you will have issues, the other you wont.

I've ran valvoline before, courtesy of the dealer

, and had very bad experience with 3rd, 4th gear grining in higher rpms. Switched to Extra-s (oem fluid), and no issues. Before going to the dealer for a gear oil change, I had no issues at all whatsover with the factory fill.

98tredsvt · 11-20-2009, 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filipin0y

i just need someone to explain to him in one simple post how he's wrong. and with the way i drive, i rarely take it to its limit. and i dont track it or street race. so no engine or tranny abuse.

just to clarify, you don't need to be redlining and dumping clutches to abuse the tranny, if you are shifting much faster than the rpms are falling, downshifting multiples gears(5th to 2nd), using excessive force on the shift knob, shifting quickly when the trans is cold, you are causing premature wear on the synchros.

rexman2002 · 11-20-2009, 01:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filipin0y

i went to the dealership and asked for a tranny fluid change along with the rear diff

guess what bro, you're not running the factory fluid then.

They filled it with whatever gear oil they can get the cheapest. You're probably running dino valvoline oil, hence your issues. Read my other post about bad experience with dealer transmission gear oil change.

filipin0y · 11-20-2009, 01:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rexman2002

guess what bro, you're not running the factory fluid then.

They filled it with whatever gear oil they can get the cheapest. You're probably running dino valvoline oil, hence your issues. Read my other post about bad experience with dealer transmission gear oil change.

so can i call the subaru dealership and complain? or they wont be able to do squat?

filipin0y · 11-20-2009, 01:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 98tredsvt

just to clarify, you don't need to be redlining and dumping clutches to abuse the tranny, if you are shifting much faster than the rpms are falling, downshifting multiples gears(5th to 2nd), using excessive force on the shift knob, shifting quickly when the trans is cold, you are causing premature wear on the synchros.

i dont dump clutch, launch, redline.
the only time it grinds is going from 3rd gear to 4th gear at any RPM above 4k and tahts where all the powerband is at.

filipin0y · 11-20-2009, 01:46 AM

well damn you wre right
they do use valvoline

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416514
dammit subaru of san bernarino...

rexman2002 · 11-20-2009, 01:57 AM

^It's better to do it yourself. Get the right gear oil for your car, and tell your uncle (the know it all) to help you out. It's not hard to change it, 21 mm socket for the tranny (02/03 WRX), drain, refill the oil through the dipstick hole found by the turbo/tmic.

filipin0y · 11-20-2009, 02:03 AM

yeah i read the DIY imma do it. im not gonna ask my uncle cuz i know hes not gonna help anyways. where can i get that copper washer?

rexman2002 · 11-20-2009, 02:06 AM

local dealer has them. That's where I got mine.

hybrid gti 2 · 11-20-2009, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 98tredsvt

just to clarify, you don't need to be redlining and dumping clutches to abuse the tranny, if you are shifting much faster than the rpms are falling, downshifting multiples gears(5th to 2nd), using excessive force on the shift knob, shifting quickly when the trans is cold, you are causing premature wear on the synchros.

True but mostly round the edges of the synchro where it meets the hub and sleeve. Pretty minor wear at best. Excessive force will cause shifter fork damage over time. As they are only aluminum the will bend and fail.

Uncle Scotty · 11-20-2009, 02:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by filipin0y

yeah i read the DIY imma do it. im not gonna ask my uncle cuz i know hes not gonna help anyways. where can i get that copper washer?

just reuse the washer you have

and 32.5ft-lbs ONLY on that drain plug!!!!!!!

no need for gorilla heroics on it

hybrid gti 2 · 11-20-2009, 11:08 AM

^ otherwise it will mushroom the gasket out and cause a leak or worse and damage the threads.

11-19-2009, 09:26 PM	#1
filipin0y Scooby Newbie Member#: 216968 Join Date: Jul 2009 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: southern california Vehicle: 2oo2 ~{WRXS3D@N}~ ~~.:[{PSM}]*:.~~	transmission fluid arguement with uncle! please post facts! 2002 wrx stick so im running the stock transmission fluid from the factory and my 1st gear tends to grind and my 3rd to 4th tends to grind at HIGH RPMS. and i know that these trannys are picky with oil so i read around and i decided to buy the 1qt motul and 3qt of redline lightweight shockproof from andrew. i herd this mixture was a dream. now heres the thing, i asked my uncle to help me change my transmission fluid and hes arguing saying that its not my fluid causing the problem since i just changed it with factory tranny fluid. hes saying that the oil doesnt matter and that NASIOC is just telling me to change my oil because they want me to spend my money?? he also says that any brand will work just as long as its OIL...he keeps telling me he knows all about transmissions and that i could even put cooking oil in there and itll work... what can you guys say about this? im going to let him read this so educated mechanics please post! btw he drives a 1991 porche carrera for years and other stick shift cars his life but never driven a subaru and has no knowledge to the 2002 tranny or even subarus in general. * Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

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11-19-2009, 09:39 PM	#2
ciper Scooby Guru Member#: 15543 Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: san francisco, ca Vehicle: 90BJ Legacy LS ABS AWD 946 Rio Red Jpn built	It's your driving habits that caused the problem. Different lube may help improve the situation but it won't fix the root cause of the problem, worn synchronizers. Learn to double clutch and follow the maintenance schedule for fluid change.

11-19-2009, 09:41 PM	#3
tallterror Scooby Specialist Member#: 177247 Join Date: Apr 2008 Chapter/Region: South East Location: Hilton Head Island, SC Vehicle: 2005 WRB WRX TD04 + 44mm EWG = wahhhh!	just posted this in your thread in general but i got closed soooo... well I'm not exactly what you'd call an "educated mechanic" but the point of better tranny oil is to allow the synchros to work better (aka less grinding) and also reduces wear on everything else. like you said the 5mt is extremely picky about oil because the synchros along with most of the tranny design is not exactly the strongest ever and is extremely dated. next time he says to put cooking oil in it ask him if he'd put that in the engine too. just like engines transmissions need specific oil which definitely isn't cooking oil. and i hate saying this but i completely agree w/ i_c_the_light's bluntness this time.

11-19-2009, 10:00 PM	#4
fastwrx25 Scooby Specialist Member#: 126441 Join Date: Sep 2006 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: california Vehicle: 02 bugeye	I've tried diff oils and cocktails in my 5mt and some work better than others. uncle scotty's cocktail works good, but more recently I'm runnin 2.2L motul300 75w90 and 1.5L redline lw shockproof that I had leftover from using US cocktail. I put the remaining .8L motul 300 in the rear diff best I've tried so far. next time I want to try 100% motul 300 in the tranny.

11-19-2009, 10:18 PM	#5
Uncle Scotty Scooby Guru Member#: 16200 Join Date: Mar 2002 Vehicle: bah straw and coal straw and coal as always	yer uncle is a total idiot and you just go ahead and do what you planned / thread

11-19-2009, 11:36 PM	#6
Back Road Runner Scooby Specialist Member#: 60082 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Minnesota Vehicle: 2002 Forester Blue	Your uncle's somewhat right. In a very large way gear oil is gear oil. Many, many, many are pretty much the same thing. There are a small handful of additive packages developed a long time ago that all the companies use. The R&D cost is too high for any newer/smaller company to do their own work and develop something better. Most of what the various companies do is simply add extra things (gimmicks) into the oil and call it special. Some of these additives help in one way or another. Some of these additives are crap and make things worse, potentially causing damage. In a large sense, anything you buy will work fine for most vehicles. The Subaru transmission is somewhat picky about the viscosity of the gear oil and good syncro function. That is true. However, no gear oil will magically make things super nor will any gear oil fix problems that already exist. If you're grinding gears often, your syncros might already be bad. Worn parts are worn parts no matter what oil is in it. The question for you then because is it a viscosity issue or plain wear? The other thing is it is now winter time and temps are dropping. Normal petroleum based oils start to get kind of thick and begin to start functioning poorly until they warm up. Switching to a synthetic based oil with a much lower pour point will allow for better immediate operation during winter use. Now with you personally living in California, this isn't an issue, but folks elsewhere in the US can benefit. As for your uncle, send him here. Let him visit the forum and decide for himself. Frankly, what do we have to gain for you to buy or not buy anything? The cooking oil comment is funny. It's true oil is oil, and even cooking oil will function. The problem is more so shear protection and cold to hot viscosity. Oil is inherently basic, but the additive package does make it function better.

11-20-2009, 12:28 AM	#8
Go350zGo Scooby Newbie Member#: 197154 Join Date: Dec 2008 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: 818/310 Vehicle: 05 Stg2STi crystal grey meth	i know very little with regards to this topic, but if your tranny is grinding gears at high RPMs i think it may not be a fluid issue. i just had my tranny and diff fluids flushed today and put redline back in. the reason i did this was because my shifts were notchier/harder than normal. Upon doing this and driving around with the new fluids for a few minutes i noticed that my shifting was back to normal. so i guess the answer to your question is use redline fluids good luck

11-20-2009, 12:54 AM	#9
filipin0y Scooby Newbie Member#: 216968 Join Date: Jul 2009 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: southern california Vehicle: 2oo2 ~{WRXS3D@N}~ ~~.:[{PSM}]*:.~~	alotta people on this forum had the same exact problem as i did and with this mixture of tranny oil it helped alot

11-20-2009, 12:58 AM	#10
filipin0y Scooby Newbie Member#: 216968 Join Date: Jul 2009 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: southern california Vehicle: 2oo2 ~{WRXS3D@N}~ ~~.:[{PSM}]*:.~~	i just need someone to explain to him in one simple post how he's wrong. and with the way i drive, i rarely take it to its limit. and i dont track it or street race. so no engine or tranny abuse.

11-20-2009, 01:23 AM	#12
rexman2002 Scooby Specialist Member#: 140244 Join Date: Feb 2007 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Chicago	I can bet money, that you're not running a factory gear oil right now. If you did you wouldn't have an issue with grining, UNLESS your transmission is ****ed up. Who did the gear oil change? You or the dealer? What's the supposed factory oil that you're currently running.

11-20-2009, 01:25 AM	#13
filipin0y Scooby Newbie Member#: 216968 Join Date: Jul 2009 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: southern california Vehicle: 2oo2 ~{WRXS3D@N}~ ~~.:[{PSM}]*:.~~	i went to the dealership and asked for a tranny fluid change along with the rear diff

11-20-2009, 01:46 AM	#19
filipin0y Scooby Newbie Member#: 216968 Join Date: Jul 2009 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: southern california Vehicle: 2oo2 ~{WRXS3D@N}~ ~~.:[{PSM}]*:.~~	well damn you wre right they do use valvoline http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=416514 dammit subaru of san bernarino...

11-20-2009, 01:57 AM	#20
rexman2002 Scooby Specialist Member#: 140244 Join Date: Feb 2007 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Chicago	^It's better to do it yourself. Get the right gear oil for your car, and tell your uncle (the know it all) to help you out. It's not hard to change it, 21 mm socket for the tranny (02/03 WRX), drain, refill the oil through the dipstick hole found by the turbo/tmic.

11-20-2009, 02:03 AM	#21
filipin0y Scooby Newbie Member#: 216968 Join Date: Jul 2009 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: southern california Vehicle: 2oo2 ~{WRXS3D@N}~ ~~.:[{PSM}]*:.~~	yeah i read the DIY imma do it. im not gonna ask my uncle cuz i know hes not gonna help anyways. where can i get that copper washer?

11-20-2009, 02:06 AM	#22
rexman2002 Scooby Specialist Member#: 140244 Join Date: Feb 2007 Chapter/Region: MWSOC Location: Chicago	local dealer has them. That's where I got mine.

11-20-2009, 11:08 AM	#25
hybrid gti 2 Scooby Guru Member#: 67004 Join Date: Jul 2004 Chapter/Region: SCIC Location: (818) 180k ej205 / ppg 5mt Vehicle: 02 silver vf30 wag 05 f250 lifted on 35's	^ otherwise it will mushroom the gasket out and cause a leak or worse and damage the threads.