4th gear synchro likely shot, dealership warns me...

[Exarch]

I bought the car used 7 months ago with 16,000 miles on it. There were no issues on the [lengthy] test drive. The only thing noted about the tranny is that shifting was very notchy.

Around two months after I bought it, I changed the fluids, engine, tranny and rear diff. Engine was Mobil-1 5w-30 synthetic, tranny and rear diff were Redline 75w-90 NS.

Around a week after these changes, I noted that at anything over 3500 RPM, I would get a grind going from 3rd to 4th. I started double-clutching going into 4th to prevent this.

Around two weeks later, I swapped the tranny to Valvoline dino, no change.

Two weeks later, I swapped to Mobil-1 full synth. No change again.

I called up the local Subaru dealer and inquired as to warranty work, and they said they'd be happy to take the car and have a look, however if they found that the synchro had worn prematurely due to abuse, then I'd be responsible to pay them for the work done to discover this, as well as parts/labor to get it all back together and on the road.

I'm pretty sure that a defective synchro and a worn synchro are going to look like the same thing...

I'm a little nervous taking it to them and having them rip it apart. I bought the car used and cannot vouch for how the prior owner drove it. So if the prior owner abused the crap out of it, and they find chipped teeth and all manner of other hell lurking in the tranny, I could potentially have to foot the bill.

Should I just continue to double-clutch and save for an upgraded gearset or 6mt swap, or should I roll the dice and hope I don't get screwed?

* Registered users of the site do not see these ads.

[Uncle Scotty]

Originally Posted by Exarch

I bought the car used 7 months ago with 16,000 miles on it. There were no issues on the [lengthy] test drive. The only thing noted about the tranny is that shifting was very notchy.

Around two months after I bought it, I changed the fluids, engine, tranny and rear diff. Engine was Mobil-1 5w-30 synthetic, tranny and rear diff were Redline 75w-90 NS.
Around a week after these changes, I noted that at anything over 3500 RPM, I would get a grind going from 3rd to 4th. I started double-clutching going into 4th to prevent this.

Around two weeks later, I swapped the tranny to Valvoline dino, no change.

Two weeks later, I swapped to Mobil-1 full synth. No change again.

I called up the local Subaru dealer and inquired as to warranty work, and they said they'd be happy to take the car and have a look, however if they found that the synchro had worn prematurely due to abuse, then I'd be responsible to pay them for the work done to discover this, as well as parts/labor to get it all back together and on the road.

I'm pretty sure that a defective synchro and a worn synchro are going to look like the same thing...

I'm a little nervous taking it to them and having them rip it apart. I bought the car used and cannot vouch for how the prior owner drove it. So if the prior owner abused the crap out of it, and they find chipped teeth and all manner of other hell lurking in the tranny, I could potentially have to foot the bill.

Should I just continue to double-clutch and save for an upgraded gearset or 6mt swap, or should I roll the dice and hope I don't get screwed?

'

well...I see a pattern of using the wrong fluids

you didnt search any of this, did ya??

[HyperSl4ck3r]

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

'

well...I see a pattern of using the wrong fluids

you didnt search any of this, did ya??

While you have a point on the tranny fluids he used are not recommended, this isn't exactly helpful to the OP...

You could try using a Scotty cocktail or Shockproof/Motul combo and see if that helps. Ether way it sounds like you will be needing to crack open that transmission in the near future. I would save up and try a cocktail, if that doesn't work, drive it till it dies and do a rebuild. This is kind of the risk you run when you buy used. Sorry man...

[98tredsvt]

if they give you trouble and try to charge you I would just try another subaru dealer, although if you'd have to pay them to diagnose it still, or you might just want to avoid them altogether.

[TEK112]

Abuse is usually the result of slamming the 1-2 shift. For synchros that high to be bad, I would put the burden of proof on them. Regardless, they will have to crack the trans and take a look.

If they won't play nicely contact SoA and explain your case.You really have no good alternative option here.

[AndrewtechAutomotive]

It would be very difficult for anyone to prove abuse to be the cause for 4th gear syncro and only 4th syncro to go early. Personally, I would try the Redline Lightweight Shockproof fluid first, as it could make things all good in the world.....

Andrew

[Exarch]

Where to start...

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

'

well...I see a pattern of using the wrong fluids

you didnt search any of this, did ya??

I've read a large majority of the lubrication threads posted on NASIOC for the last year.

Oil opinions are like arseholes, the only tolerable one is your own. I've seen a lot of conjecture and idiocy and almost no factual evidence to suggest one engine oil is better than any other. If you'd like to point me in the right direction to find some actual facts, I'd be very appreciative.

if they give you trouble and try to charge you I would just try another subaru dealer, although if you'd have to pay them to diagnose it still, or you might just want to avoid them altogether.

The pisser is that I have -one- dealer here, they wouldn't try to charge me until they ripped it open. Nearest other dealer is up in Denver.

The local dealer does have a rather sterling rep though. After some bad experiences with VW a bunch of years back, I'm very nervous with dealers.

Abuse is usually the result of slamming the 1-2 shift. For synchros that high to be bad, I would put the burden of proof on them. Regardless, they will have to crack the trans and take a look.

That would seem fairly correct. The second gear synchro is also much more likely to get mauled early because of the drastic shaft speed difference between first and second. Burden of proof is on them, thankfully.

If they won't play nicely contact SoA and explain your case.You really have no good alternative option here.

True, see the VW comment above, the last time I contacted a company to have warranty work squared (a VW tech dumped 5 lbs of refrigerant into my cooling system instead of 2 lbs, causing complete death of the system) the next call I had to make was to my lawyer.

It would be very difficult for anyone to prove abuse to be the cause for 4th gear syncro and only 4th syncro to go early. Personally, I would try the Redline Lightweight Shockproof fluid first, as it could make things all good in the world.....

Andrew

I didn't think of it that way. I'm utterly nervous sticking my neck out by letting them crack the case and THEN determining whether or not I'm paying for it.

I'll have to think on it for a few days more. If I go the ShockProof route, or with Scotty's swill and it doesn't work, I'll just keep driving and double clutching until I can pull of a significantly better gearset or a 6mt swap.

[Uncle Scotty]

Originally Posted by Exarch

Where to start...



I've read a large majority of the lubrication threads posted on NASIOC for the last year.

Oil opinions are like arseholes, the only tolerable one is your own. I've seen a lot of conjecture and idiocy and almost no factual evidence to suggest one engine oil is better than any other. If you'd like to point me in the right direction to find some actual facts, I'd be very appreciative.

where to start

I have been here a LONG time

I read MOST of the technical forums.

the EXACT issue that YOU are having is EXACTLY the same one that hundreds and HUNDREDS of idiots have HAD
and that is putting the WRONG LUBE in their transmissions

I did NOT post an opinion

I posted A FACT

So, until you pull your head out..............

[HyperSl4ck3r]

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

where to start

I have been here a LONG time

I read MOST of the technical forums.

the EXACT issue that YOU are having is EXACTLY the same one that hundreds and HUNDREDS of idiots have HAD
and that is putting the WRONG LUBE in their transmissions

I did NOT post an opinion

I posted A FACT

So, until you pull your head out..............

He was talking about engine oil, NOT transmission oil. I totally agree with you on the transmission oil, but the engine oil is what he was talking about. It would be nice if you could toss in your 2 cents in a more productive way, such as actually suggesting a remedy instead of pointing out a problem we already know exists...

Lets not start a pissing match, its not worth it and not helpful to the OP. Can't we all just get along??

[toconn]

Originally Posted by HyperSl4ck3r

He was talking about engine oil, NOT transmission oil. I totally agree with you on the transmission oil, but the engine oil is what he was talking about. It would be nice if you could toss in your 2 cents in a more productive way, such as actually suggesting a remedy instead of pointing out a problem we already know exists...

Lets not start a pissing match, its not worth it and not helpful to the OP. Can't we all just get along??

No, Scotty has a point. The fact of the matter is that there are countless oil-analysis threads on NASIOC (both engine and transmission) backing up the FACT that the OP used poor fluids. Are the current problems being caused by his fluid choices? Maybe, maybe not. But it's important that he starts using good fluids to mitigate any future problems that may arise.


Like others have said - give some of the recommended tranny fluids a shot, you'd be surprised how much they can do...

[Exarch]

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

where to start

I have been here a LONG time

I read MOST of the technical forums.

the EXACT issue that YOU are having is EXACTLY the same one that hundreds and HUNDREDS of idiots have HAD
and that is putting the WRONG LUBE in their transmissions

I did NOT post an opinion

I posted A FACT

So, until you pull your head out..............

Look through you're first post, just simply telling me "you must not have searched" isn't a fact and isn't terrifically constructive.

I have a problem related to a problem that hundreds of other users have had. Many have grinds, very few have a grind into 4th and 4th alone.

A majority of those individuals have a shot synchro. All the lube in the world will not replace the material of a worn synchro.

This is a "should I take it to the dealer" thread, not a lubrication thread. The lubes I've used are posted for reference and nothing more. However I do welcome suggestions as to what to run. The car was swapped off of M1 at it's last change and is now using dealer cheap-o in the engine until I can figure out why NASIOC at large hates M1 5w-X.

The fact:noise ratio of anything oil related on these forums is ridiculous. Last night I spent a couple of hours trying to find a thread that showed why people favor Rotella in the engine and Motul or Extra-S in the tranny. There are literally hundreds of posts of "Mobil 1 sux" with absolutely nothing to say why. Some try at the famed question of "why" and get about as far as "the general consensus on these forums is that M1 sucks almost as bad as RP". I read someone state that it's because M1 uses a group IV stock whereas Rotella uses a group V, but that didn't give any information the common Joe can use and is an idle fact with no evidence to support it. It also doesn't help that three posts later is someone with a tracked 04 STi who has been running M1 5w for 200,000 miles on full stock internals.

You diving in here and screaming "You're doing it all wrong!" isn't helping things progress one bit, especially seeing as this has turned into another thread on the "noise" side of the ratio in terms of any factual lubrication evidence.

Since you've read and replied to a majority of the threads in the technical world, you'd be the ideal person to know where on NASIOC these analysis can be located. A majority of the "factual oil analysis" that you seem to point to is either in the archives or doesn't exist. The problem with it being in the archives is that manufacturers will reformulate or swap their bases periodically. An oil analysis of M1 5w-X from two years ago isn't a valid analysis for anything other than that oil purchased two years ago.

Please just be constructive and post either some factual information (or link to it), a viewpoint that I may not have thought of, or stay silent.

I may end up trying your cocktail at some point, and if that cures it, I'll be both amazed and very appreciative of the formula you've come up with. However until that point, if you have nothing constructive to say about the original question "should I dealer it or not?", please go lurk elsewhere.

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone else, however barging into threads spouting a completely unsupported opinion doesn't do anything for the one who made the thread or the ones who will read it when searching later; this is very much defeating the effectiveness of your suggested course of action.

Originally Posted by tocon

No, Scotty has a point. The fact of the matter is that there are countless oil-analysis threads on NASIOC (both engine and transmission) backing up the FACT that the OP used poor fluids. Are the current problems being caused by his fluid choices? Maybe, maybe not. But it's important that he starts using good fluids to mitigate any future problems that may arise.


Like others have said - give some of the recommended tranny fluids a shot, you'd be surprised how much they can do...

Scotty has the point that he's being pointless, that's about the extent of it. The first few pages of search for "mobil1 oil-analysis" come up with a bunch of worthless threads that say "get an analysis" or "have it analysed", or "M1 sucks, analysis proved it". None of these give me any helpful information in the slightest and certainly not an actual oil-analysis report.

I dumped in what has historically (15 or so years) worked for me without an issue.

I will agree that I need to use the correct fluids. I just haven't found the supporting evidence yet. Tonight it's time for a nice cup of tea and some bobistheoilguy searching. That forum has more oil facts than you can shake a stick at. I'm also going to try and figure out what it is about a traditional diesel engine oil that makes it good to run in our vehicles. I've read conjecture about some unnamed but supposedly nice additives, however nothing of what they do or don't do and how they are any better or worse than the additives in other things.

I tend to be of the very old-school mindset until shown directly otherwise: "The best oil is the one which you change most regularly and is of the right weight and rating"

Note that the car is still running M1 in the tranny because I haven't decided what to dump in there next, cocktail or Motul. The engine is now running whatever the dealer has a drum of. The rear diff is running Redline 75w-90.

The redline NS in the tranny was suggested in one of the few threads with an individual with the exact same problem as I on the same year vehicle. Using the NS in his tranny cleared his 4th gear grind up.

[Uncle Scotty]

Originally Posted by Exarch

Look through you're first post, -blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy -blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy- blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy-blabidy

jesus christ

you have a REAL perpensity for posting a WHOLE BUNCH of worthless bull****...when none is necessary

when you have more real world experience to share with us...post it

until then.......just go ahead and blow it right the **** up...ya might learn something THAT way

[Uncle Scotty]

Originally Posted by HyperSl4ck3r

He was talking about engine oil, NOT transmission oil. I totally agree with you on the transmission oil, but the engine oil is what he was talking about. It would be nice if you could toss in your 2 cents in a more productive way, such as actually suggesting a remedy instead of pointing out a problem we already know exists...

Lets not start a pissing match, its not worth it and not helpful to the OP. Can't we all just get along??

this thread is NOT dealing with engine oil, now IS IT

[Exarch]

Uncle Scotty,

The questions of the thread are:
1.) What can I do to my tranny to help 4th stop grinding?
2.) What is some rationale I can take to the dealer with me if I take it in?

If you don't have a logical and complete answer for either of those, this thread isn't for you.

[Aspenbullet]

"Oil opinions are like arseholes, the only tolerable one is your own."

That's the most useful thing posted in this entire thread.

I'd just listen to Uncle Snotty and piss in your tranny. It's the only wayvto be sure.

[Uncle Scotty]

Originally Posted by Exarch

Uncle Scotty,

The questions of the thread are:
1.) What can I do to my tranny to help 4th stop grinding?
2.) What is some rationale I can take to the dealer with me if I take it in?

If you don't have a logical and complete answer for either of those, this thread isn't for you.

1) Get 3qt 80w90 Castrol HypoyC if you can find it, loosen drain bolt and drain 3qt outa the trans, put in HypoyC.
See if that helps....this is a temporary 'fix' just to get rid of the crap that is in the trans NOW....this will also help flush it for cheap.

2) There is no 'rational' to take to the dealer....they(almost certainly) wont do anything for you....

3) Get 3qt Motul gear 300 and 1qt Lightweight Redline Shockproof and use that when you can get it....change it every 20-25k miles.

[HyperSl4ck3r]

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

1) Get 3qt 80w90 Castrol HypoyC if you can find it, loosen drain bolt and drain 3qt outa the trans, put in HypoyC.
See if that helps....this is a temporary 'fix' just to get rid of the crap that is in the trans NOW....this will also help flush it for cheap.

2) There is no 'rational' to take to the dealer....they(almost certainly) wont do anything for you.... (IMHO I disagree)

3) Get 3qt Motul gear 300 and 1qt Lightweight Redline Shockproof and use that when you can get it....change it every 20-25k miles.

THAT, right there, is helpful. Took 20+ posts but now we are making progress...

[Uncle Scotty]

Originally Posted by HyperSl4ck3r

THAT, right there, is helpful. Took 20+ posts but now we are making progress...

d00000000000d

outa warranty...the dealer(99% of them, anyway) will tell ya to get ****ed


oh....and THIS is post 18 in this thread

[Exarch]

Thanks for the pointers, Scotty.

The car is still under warranty, both the 3/36 and the 5/60k are still in effect.

Last questions:
1.) Should I flush it first? I don't need a "band-aid" as getting the Shockproof/Motul in a couple of days isn't a problem.
2.) When I'm draining, after I lower the car following yanking the plug, would it be a good idea to jack the back end up to tip the tranny forward to drain more thoroughly?

[MRX WRX]

ok i did the same thing with my new 05 car and had the same results with the 3-4 grinding from the synthetic lube. i replaced the oil with the OEM stuff and it took about 4mths for the grinding to go way but it did. i had a customer that did the exact thing too and also replaced with OEM fluid and it took a few mths for the grinding to go away. you got nothing to lose so try it!!

[MRX WRX]

BTW i now have 75k on the tranny and have had mid 400's to the wheels for about 3 yrs now. and it still works perfect!

[Uncle Scotty]

Originally Posted by Exarch

Thanks for the pointers, Scotty.

The car is still under warranty, both the 3/36 and the 5/60k are still in effect.

Last questions:
1.) Should I flush it first? I don't need a "band-aid" as getting the Shockproof/Motul in a couple of days isn't a problem.
2.) When I'm draining, after I lower the car following yanking the plug, would it be a good idea to jack the back end up to tip the tranny forward to drain more thoroughly?

once you put any 'shockproof' product in the transmission

it will be very difficult to hide the fact that it was added and as a 'non-GL-5' rated lubricant, some(many?) dealers MAY deny warranty on the transmission

therefore....it is YOUR flip of the coin as to what to DO

MY local dealer wouldnt care one bit....and, in fact, recommends its use....others, not so much.

It is also my opinion that the wrong lube IS causing the issue(s) at hand and will be eliminated by replacing the problematic lube.

I would drain the trans and fill it with 80w90 HypoyC and see what that does for a week or 3 and go from there

[Exarch]

Originally Posted by Uncle Scotty

once you put any 'shockproof' product in the transmission

it will be very difficult to hide the fact that it was added and as a 'non-GL-5' rated lubricant, some(many?) dealers MAY deny warranty on the transmission

therefore....it is YOUR flip of the coin as to what to DO

MY local dealer wouldnt care one bit....and, in fact, recommends its use....others, not so much.

It is also my opinion that the wrong lube IS causing the issue(s) at hand and will be eliminated by replacing the problematic lube.

I would drain the trans and fill it with 80w90 HypoyC and see what that does for a week or 3 and go from there

Thanks again for the information.

In doing a lot of re-thinking of the whole bit, I'm inclined to agree with your opinion that my problem is lube related and not a shot synchro. I'll hazard a guess that if the synchro was truly dead it wouldn't work any better on a tranny with cold lube than it would on a tranny with warm lube.

I'll have the HypoyC in the tranny by the end of the week and I'll let you know how it goes.

[Exarch]

I've been running the HypoyC 75w90 in the tranny for a couple of weeks. I would have used the 80w-90, however it wasn't available locally and I didn't feel like ordering off the net then waiting for a day warm enough to perform the swap. So I bought locally and waited for a day above 35 degrees...

My grind is gone. Upshifts from 3 -> 4 are grind-free at any RPM. Downshifts from 5 -> 4 "clunk" into place, so the synchro isn't being perfect, but it's a damn site better than it was.

There was no alarming debris on the drain plug.

For me, shifts on a warm tranny are smoother with the HypoyC than they were with the Redline 75-90NS or the Mobil1 75w-90LS. Cold temps down to the low 20's have a better cold feel than the Mobil did. Below 20, such as this morning, at 6 degrees, it feels like the box is lubed with pudding. A few minutes of idling with the clutch out brought the tranny back to it's usual feel.

So, with the Hypoy in and all going well, is there a next-step to this process?