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Old 05-08-2002, 11:13 AM   #1
romanom
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Talking Poor mans way of bleeding a system with ABS

Sorry forgot all about this post. I was informed that I was mistaken and just plain forgot to update this post. It seems that the method I had below will not work on the current ABS system. The slamming on the brakes will work, if you did what I had before it will NOT harm anything. So, please move on to the replies below, there's nothing to see here.



Ok let's move on (to the replies below), nothing to see here
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Last edited by romanom; 11-01-2002 at 04:33 PM.
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Old 05-08-2002, 12:57 PM   #2
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you mean lazy way...its better if you take off the wheels and do it the right way...lol
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Old 05-08-2002, 01:03 PM   #3
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This is part of the system, you do this WHILE bleeding the brakes in the normal fashion.
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Old 05-08-2002, 02:12 PM   #4
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So what's the other way of bleeding the brakes?

I'm installing springs and struts this Sat.. I've never done any thing like this before!
I've worked on older cars before but nothing with ABS!
Is there any way to do it without haveing to bleed the brakes?
How about torq specs? Anybody know?


I don't have a repair manual . Anybody know where I can get one? Other than a dealer. They would probably take my right arm for it
Thanks,
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Old 05-08-2002, 02:47 PM   #5
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bleeding of the brakes in not neccisary for replacement of the springs/struts, just "clip" the bracket on the strut that holds the brake line (carefully) and bend it out of the way to get the brake line free.
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Old 05-08-2002, 03:35 PM   #6
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Subarus do not require any additional brake bleed procedure for ABS. A normal brake bleed procedure is all you need to do.
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Old 05-09-2002, 10:55 AM   #7
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Cool!! Thanks
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Old 05-09-2002, 01:42 PM   #8
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Hi Mike
Porsche still waiting for some transmission TLC. Ford still beating me up.
Hope life is treating you well.

I think Subaru has the 5.7 system and all the data is in Europe. I do know that
for service, a normal bleed should suffice. Do 3 normal bleeds and then do
an ABS stop if you still feel that air might be trapped. Then do 1 more
bleed. The ABS stop would have flushed the air out.

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Romano [mailto:*************************]
Sent: Wednesday, May 08, 2002 5:11 PM
To: Joseph Miller
Subject: Bosch ABS


Hey Joe,

What's up? How's the Porsche?

Got a quick question for you. I got a WRX wagon. It
has a Bosch ABS ICU, does Bosch require that the ABS be cycled for a proper
brake bleed or flush?



Thanks!

Regards,
Michael Romano
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Old 05-09-2002, 02:24 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by romanom

I think Subaru has the 5.7 system and all the data is in Europe. I do know that
for service, a normal bleed should suffice. Do 3 normal bleeds and then do
an ABS stop if you still feel that air might be trapped. Then do 1 more
bleed. The ABS stop would have flushed the air out.
According to the service manuals, it is a 5.3i system.

Erik
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Old 05-09-2002, 02:40 PM   #10
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This is interesting, doing a brake job tonight.

Here's the question though, if there's no air in the system in the first place, and you don't allow the master cylinder to go dry so that air is sucked in, why is everybody worried about air in the ABS? Water is one thing, but how can air just magically appear in your brake lines if everything is in good shape?
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Old 05-09-2002, 02:52 PM   #11
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Your right. I posted this in response to another thread where some one replaced brake parts and therefore bleed the system dry.

But for the first bleed after taking delivery I would do a bleed as if there is a lot of air in the system...because there is. The factory does the entire fill in under 30 seconds, so it's rarely done right.
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Old 05-09-2002, 03:03 PM   #12
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With time you do get air in the system, even if the system is perfectly sealed in time as the fluid breaks down gasses trapped in solution come out and form bubbles. This is accelerated with heat, like oil or damper (shocks/struts) fluid.
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Old 05-09-2002, 04:13 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally posted by romanom
Your right. I posted this in response to another thread where some one replaced brake parts and therefore bleed the system dry.

But for the first bleed after taking delivery I would do a bleed as if there is a lot of air in the system...because there is. The factory does the entire fill in under 30 seconds, so it's rarely done right.
Well, IMO it's just common sense that if you want them done right, you have to take a bit of time to do it.

I never thought about how the factory fills the brake system, that's a good point. Hopefully after I flush out all the old stuff with the Ford DOT 3 I got today it'll feel like it was meant to.

Quote:
Originally posted by romanom

With time you do get air in the system, even if the system is perfectly sealed in time as the fluid breaks down gasses trapped in solution come out and form bubbles. This is accelerated with heat, like oil or damper (shocks/struts) fluid.
True, but I imagine that if you change the fluid at least as often as you change the pads, this shouldn't ever be enough of a problem that you'd actually feel it through the pedal unless you're going a few years on a set of pads, then I believe it should be changed out at least once a year.

I don't really think I have to worry about it so much, since at this rate I'll be changing my pads at least twice or three times a year, and the brakes will be bled out at least that often.
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Old 05-09-2002, 09:09 PM   #14
StopTech
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Default ABS Bleeding Article

For an article addressing basics of bleeding an ABS equipped vehicle, see the article titled "Bleeding ABS, is it really as hard as it sounds?" on the Technical page of our website.

http://www.stoptech.com/technical

Happy reading-

Matt Weiss
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Old 05-09-2002, 09:15 PM   #15
romanom
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Default Re: ABS Bleeding Article

Quote:
Originally posted by StopTech Service
For an article addressing basics of bleeding an ABS equipped vehicle, see the article titled "Bleeding ABS, is it really as hard as it sounds?" on the Technical page of our website.

http://www.stoptech.com/technical

Happy reading-

Matt Weiss
StopTech

Excellent Article!

Can't speak for Bosch or TRW, but for Teves (Ate) units they all recommend ABS cycling for a proper bleed.

Last edited by romanom; 05-09-2002 at 09:22 PM.
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Old 05-09-2002, 09:22 PM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by Mykl
This is interesting, doing a brake job tonight.

Here's the question though, if there's no air in the system in the first place, and you don't allow the master cylinder to go dry so that air is sucked in, why is everybody worried about air in the ABS? Water is one thing, but how can air just magically appear in your brake lines if everything is in good shape?
Brake fluid is hydroscopic, which means that it absorbs water from the atmosphere. When you have the fluid reservoir open, it takes water from the air, and because the system is not "airtight", it will gradually leech moisture from the surrounding environment.

When you brake, it generates a LOT of heat- water in the brake fluid boils at 212 degrees F ( a ridiculously low temp for brakes) and breaks down the water into it's component gasses. This is wheer the air comes from.

That's why it's so important to bleed your brakes right before a track event- it gets rid of fluid that may have enough water in it to boil at the track, causing massive brake fade.
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Old 05-10-2002, 02:40 AM   #17
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Matt....GREAT article man! It helps a lot!

Thanks,
wighti
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Old 05-10-2002, 11:11 AM   #18
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Default ABS Bleeding Article

Glad the article is giving some insight. If you get a chance, look at the other articles on the Technical page of the site; there's some pretty good fundamental information we're happy to share.

Matt Weiss
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Old 11-01-2002, 03:12 PM   #19
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If one is installing a new brake kit (like Stoptechs) instead of doing what is in the Stoptech article (refering to this section)

Quote:
If you really feel the need to cycle the valves, but do not have access to a service tool (or if the dealer is not willing to loan theirs) you COULD just replace Step #2 above with "go driving and slam on the brakes a few times to make the ABS work" to purge the used fluid from the unit. This is usually NOT the most efficient nor socially responsible solution, though it seems to work just fine. You still need to bleed the car a second time, but it saves you from procuring the service tool.
Wouldn't it be better to bleed the system normally with stock brakes still on. Then "go driving and slam on the brakes a few times to make the ABS work". Then come back and install the new system and rebleed. This way you can properly bed in the new brake kit instead of going around slamming on the brakes right after installing it?
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Old 11-01-2002, 03:23 PM   #20
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Default Why Not?

Makes perfectly good sense to me, just another direction to the same end result.

Matt
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Old 11-01-2002, 03:47 PM   #21
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Default Fuse trick may not always work

Hey romanom, I'm here to be a thorn in your side again!

Actually, I do not believe the fuse procedure will work with most ABS vehicles nor on the WRX.

The reason is that the "self test" is usually not done at power up. Some do, but most do so after the vehicle has started moving. This is a noise reason (when the vehicle is standing still, everything is quiet and so you can hear the ABS self test; once the vehicle is moving, there's more road noise and so the self test noise is masked). Believe it or not, I have attended meetings where more 10 engineers spent more than 4 hours figuring out whether the self test should be activated at 5mph or at 8mph.

Also, the self test doesn't come close to circulating fluid around the ABS system - it just activates everything for an instance once.

On the WRX, you can hear the self test if you start the car on a hill and let the car coast to 8mph or so. You'll hear a brief buzz come on - this is the ABS self test. If you use the engine to get under way, the engine will mask the buzz, as the engineers intended.

Therefore, the only non-dealer way that I know of to do a bleed with ABS is to do a brake bleed and then go out and activate ABS (go to a gravel road for example) so at least you get some fresh fluid mixed in.

Another plug for the FAQ I wrote that addresses this point:
http://www.geocities.com/nosro/abs_faq
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Old 11-01-2002, 03:53 PM   #22
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Also, as a side note, almost all ABS systems that I know of are designed so that any air floats up and out of the system. The hydraulic units are almost always mounted so that air will never be trapped in the hydraulic unit.

Another reason why the bleed, then do an ABS stop, then rebleed procedure should work.

P.S. The Subaru is a Bosch 5.7 system. The application work was done in Bosch Japan.
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Old 09-05-2006, 02:22 AM   #23
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???????????????
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Old 09-05-2006, 05:58 AM   #24
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...oldest thread I've EVER seen bumped....
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Old 11-04-2007, 04:12 PM   #25
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So, if one does a 4 pot brembo upgrade to the front the rears have to be bled too?

Reason I'm asking is... I have bled the 4 pots several times, and the pedal still goes to the floor the first time.

What am I doing wrong???
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