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Old 01-28-2003, 08:36 PM   #1
warlord225
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Talking Clutch shudder, good info.

my 1993 legacy doesn't shudder at all ever it has about 70,000miles on it.
my conclusion, it is a usdm problem
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Old 01-28-2003, 10:47 PM   #2
Legacy777
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This may be of some interest to those of you with clutch shudder. This may or may not help....but if you're doin tranny work....might as well give it a shot. I've dealt with Al personally and definitely respect his decision.

"It sounds like the snout on the transmission is worn and the t/o bearing is flopping around on it. The usual fix for this is to replace the transmission case. We have a stainless steel sleeve that will fit over the snout and lock in place, this will repair this problem without replacing the case and comes with a new t/o bearing. It looks like this will also cure clutch chatter in the cases we have seen so far. We also have a modified cylinder that will cure the low disengagement point that is very common in std transmission n/a cars and all of this makes a smooth properly working clutch.
AL(CO)
al@iwtu.net "
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Old 01-28-2003, 11:14 PM   #3
RK Performance
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legacy777- You beat me to it! I've been meaning to post a review.

I think I'm one of three cars with this fix on it. I must say, I love it. Not only have I delt with Al personally, he's practically my neighbor. The sleeve is such a great idea by Al and Joel at PDMTurbos.com. After showing me a few trannies, high mile and low mile, I was surprised at the grooves wich are worn into the tranny snout. At this point, two days before my car was going into the dealer for a warranty clutch, I was sold.

Had the dealer throw it on while they were down there and so far so good. It will be track tested, auto X tested and anything else that might come across here in the future. I will also be testing the cylinder on my car here in a few days, among other NEW ideas

If you have any questions feel free to email me or post 'em here!

-Ryan
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Old 01-29-2003, 09:44 AM   #4
goobie
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Default I'm Confused a little...

Alright, So let me try and understand this....
By saying the "snout" is worn on the transmission.... are you refering to the nose piece of the input shaft that the T/O bearing rides on? If so I fully agree this is the problem. When I had the dealer replace my clutch over about 9 months ago (warranty, for chatter, slipping etc...) I noticed the shaft had a pronounced groove worn in it, which would allow the T/O bearing a little play on the shaft. The tech told me this amount of wear is normal and would not cause problems... I was/am still not convinced...

Assuming the above is true, can someone help me understand why the usual fix is to change the transmission case? You would still have a worn shaft, no??? I've also heard of this "fix" but I don't see what replacing the case would do....Please explain!

Also, could you explain the sleeve's placement? Is he simply putting a sleeve over the worn shaft and having the T/O bearing ride on the sleeve? If so, I assume the new T/O bearing that comes with this fix has a larger inside diameter to compensate for the enlarged shaft, due to the sleeve? Not to knock the fix, but it begs the question: how long will the sleeve hold up before it wears?

Am I way off in left field on this one, or am I understanding this correctly?
Any pictures, drawlings of this fix would be greatly apprciated...

Thanks,
Chad
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Old 01-29-2003, 02:06 PM   #5
RK Performance
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Goobie-
Well, you pretty much got it! The reason replacing the case ($800) works for this by the way is that the snout is part of the case. So you replace the case you have a nice new Aluminium snout to wear out. I felt up the snout of an 80,000 mile tranny which was worn deep, and the snout of a 3,000 (WRX) mile tranny, which was already noticably grooved.

The sleeve is Stainless steel, and it should not wear, and should last the life of the vehicle. It does come with a new t/o bearing which does have a larger inner-diameter. I will really beat the crap out of this thing at Second Creek (Denver's street course) and Auto Xing to test it's limits. I have already done some full throttle launches up to 110 mph and no problems. The key here is that if it's going to break it will happen on my car. But I have full confidence in the product and the manufacturer and would never throw something on my car that I knew was going to fail, just to see how long it would last. It's my daily driver / race car, and I love her!

-Ryan
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Old 01-29-2003, 02:33 PM   #6
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Quote:
Originally posted by RK Performance
I felt up the snout of an 80,000 mile tranny
Something about that sentence sounds so wrong.
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Old 01-29-2003, 08:29 PM   #7
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EXCELLENT!!
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Old 01-29-2003, 08:32 PM   #8
SubbyRS
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Quote:
my 1993 legacy doesn't shudder at all ever it has about 70,000miles on it.
Hey warlord, mine does (NZ new '91 RS with 87,000km) but then I've done a few "spectacular" launches in the last 3 years & I believe the previous owner used it to tow a caravan! Interestingly, my local "go-fast" shop replaces the BC5 Legacy clutch with the later TT clutch as it's heavier duty...
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Old 01-30-2003, 01:30 AM   #9
RK Performance
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HAHA, and you think it Sounds wrong? You should've been there!!!!

-Ryan
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Old 01-31-2003, 01:38 AM   #10
Coati
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So, if this is the culprit, why would the shudder be intermittent and dependent on temperature?
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Old 01-31-2003, 10:06 AM   #11
goobie
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Quote:
So, if this is the culprit, why would the shudder be intermittent and dependent on temperature?
Hmmm.... Very good question!

Maybe it's a combination of worn trans snout and a warped flywheel??? I dunno... I don't get a lot of shutter anymore since I upgraded my flywheel and clutch...


Chad
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Old 01-31-2003, 10:16 AM   #12
bluesubie
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Default Re: Clutch shudder, good info.

Quote:
Originally posted by warlord225

my conclusion, it is a usdm problem
As SubbyRS pointed out, bzzzzt, wrong answer!

SIDC UK FAQ

-Dennis
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Old 01-31-2003, 11:05 AM   #13
Coati
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Quote:
Originally posted by goobie


Hmmm.... Very good question!

Maybe it's a combination of worn trans snout and a warped flywheel??? I dunno... I don't get a lot of shutter anymore since I upgraded my flywheel and clutch...


Chad
I really don't think the flywheels of everyone's cars are warping. That would mean, in my case, that I've warped two Subaru flywheels in 30,000 miles of mild driving, despite never having warped a flywheel on any other of my cars in the last 20 years of driving.
The same would apply for my dad, who drives a Forester, and has been driving since before the Korean war.

Besides, you can induce clutch shudder (albeit under different conditions and at different frequencies) with a JUN flywheel and a 2.5 RS clutch disc on a WRX, so it's something else.
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Old 02-01-2003, 05:05 AM   #14
RK Performance
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Quote:
I really don't think the flywheels of everyone's cars are warping.
Agreed! In fact I don't think anyones flywheel is warped, but I do believe they are probably scuffed from the clutch.

Quote:
Besides, you can induce clutch shudder (albeit under different conditions and at different frequencies) with a JUN flywheel and a 2.5 RS clutch disc on a WRX, so it's something else.
Well, seeing how 2.5 RS', have been having clutch shudder since the USDM WRX wasn't even thought of, that's not a surprise. This is a problem with a good majority of subaru manual trannies.

Quote:
So, if this is the culprit, why would the shudder be intermittent and dependent on temperature?
This is a good question... My theory is that the clutch is less grippy when cold, so therefore when you try to slip the clutch, which is wobbling, it's sort of bouncing on the flywheel till it finally engages. If this is the case, then when the clutch is warm it would still be wobbling, but would catch the flywheel with enough force to smooth the wobble and create even contact between clutch and flywheel smoothing the feel to a barely noticable clunk(if at all noticable). This theory is based off the performance of my car durring it's clutch shudder stage (8000 mi. to 18000 mi.). It also explains the scuff and burn marks left on the flywheels.

It is interesting to note though, and I am probably not the only one that got clutch shudder after driving 10, 20, 40, even 70 miles. Only difference is that it was always less violent and cured itself with no adjustment to throttle or clutch. Sometimes just one minor clunk after releasing the clutch up to 3rd gear.

Well, those are the visions going through my head, anyone else?

-Ryan
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Old 02-01-2003, 12:29 PM   #15
mturmel
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This is interesting...

My tranny is due for work at the dealership soon (1st and 2nd synchro). They will also look at the decel noise. I have to say that since I've had an STi clutch/flywheel installed the shudder has been very rare.

Now, it sounds like this could fix the decelleration noise as well? I still have that noise and the suspect is that T/O bearing. I was told that the STi clutch uses the OEM bearing...

Question, would that fix work with the STi clutch? How do I go about getting my hands on those parts?

Thanks!

Matt
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Old 02-01-2003, 01:20 PM   #16
RK Performance
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I will find out today! If it uses the stock throwout bearing I should.

-Ryan
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Old 02-01-2003, 04:34 PM   #17
mturmel
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Thanks Ryan!

I'm willing to be the Guinea pig for trying it on my clutch. I had a chat with my Suby tech (he's a Suby master tech, best in Canada 3 years running...) and he though it was a good idea. He's willing to put this setup in no problem.

One thing you could do is provide a list of matching OEM parts that this setup replace? Or at least a list of the parts involved. Also, if you'd like, you can email me the price, parts list and details at matt's email.

Thanks for your help,

Matt
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Old 02-02-2003, 03:14 AM   #18
RK Performance
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Okay, the WRX sleeve is in the works and will also fit the Turbo Legacy. I don't have a delivery date on them just yet. But here is my suggestion, if you have a clutch/flywheel that you are going to be installing anytime in the near future, wait. You really want to consider this fix, along with another bit that will put the icing on the cake! Look for a thread titled something along the line of "Ballerina Clutch fix" for full details Coming to a NASIOC forum near you! Once I get that thread started I will link it here.

Now, we can not guarantee that these two bits will cure clutch shudder/chatter due to the fact that the scuffing/burning on the flywheel may be a contributing factor to the problem. The clutch may eventually wear down the flywheel therefore removing any scuffing or burn marks and therefore ending the shudder/chatter. If you install a new flywheel we highly suggest these parts, as they will keep the scuffing from ever happening, and thusly ending your shudder/chatter problems.

In the mean time, I have some homework for you all... Get in your car, start 'er up, and stop on a flat surface where you are away from traffic (such as a Parking lot). Place your car in first gear but leave your foot on the clutch (push it to the floor) then rev up the engine. Also try it in reverse. Very good chance your car is moving even though the clutch is on the floor..... Hmmmmm, interesting. All I can say is, we have a part, and you'll get the details soon enough. And I really don't suggest you do this for more than 10 seconds, and when you are stopped make sure you are in neutral with the clutch out.

-Ryan
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Old 02-02-2003, 05:06 AM   #19
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So what are you guys doing with your dealership warranties? I have about 9000 on my car and have been experiencing some shutters. I've read that some dealerships will fix this for you and others will say it's normal. Are you guys just skipping the whole warranty from the dealership and just solving the problem yourself with this new sleeve now? Kind of defeats the purpose of the warranty. I just got in the mail the offer for the extended warranty as well. What to do...what to do?
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Old 02-02-2003, 10:25 AM   #20
mturmel
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Kingston,
been there done that... My dealership has already changed the T/O bearing while installing the clutch and it did not fix the problem. I had to pay for a new T/O as they would have used the old one. So, even with a new STi clutch and flywheel, I get the decel noise problem... I've had enough, so I'll try this solution, can't be worse!

RK, I've talked to PDM turbos and found out they're in CO. Turns out I'll be in Denver next week and will meet them. Too bad the sleeve is not ready, I may wait for that one for installing the new T/O, I'll discuss that with them.

Of course, I'll post a full review when the surgery is completed.

Thanks,

Matt
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Old 02-02-2003, 01:59 PM   #21
RK Performance
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mturmel - Sound good, Joel is a great guy and he really knows what he's talking about. Never know, I may see you up there, I tend to hang out there every once in a while. There is always something interesting going on over there.

Kingston - Dealerships should no longer be saying "this is normal" because Subaru has updated parts which suposidly "fix" the problem. Unfortunately, if you get the new clutch, pressure plate, and flywheel from them or any aftermarket clutch/P.P./flywheel the problem will return. But if you replace the clutch, P.P., and flywheel, along with the sleeve and the "other" fix that I will start a new thread about, the problem should be eliminated. Basically we believe that there are two contributing factors to this issue and PDM takes care of both of them but they either need to be installed while doing the clutch/pressure plate/flywheel, or before. If you install these parts without changing the Clutch/P.P./Flywheel, it may fix the problem over time but we can't be sure. Basically, don't get your warranty clutch just yet, wait to get these parts.

-Ryan
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Old 02-15-2003, 04:46 PM   #22
jjunior887
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Bump, any new news on this Ryan, I've had the shudder ever since the weather got cold.

I had about 10K on it at the time. It only does it when cold.

This "fix" makes alot of sense, it seems like the people getting their clutches and all replaced aren'y really getting rid of the problem, just the results of it.

It seems like if you just did the fix you are talking about that in time it would take care of the shudder w/o replacing the clutch/flywheel/to bearing. -James
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Old 02-16-2003, 04:57 AM   #23
RK Performance
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Hi James,

Sorry I can't give you to much information on this. The Mods have come down on me saying I need a vendor status to even talk about products on here. So, I am not sure what I am going to do. If I find enough interest in the two products to cure clutch shudder, in other words, enough to pay for the vendor status, I will do it, but another bill right now is what I don't need.

I will say this much, the sleeve is in developement. The other fix, is SWEET. You guys will love it. But it is only for the N/A guys right now also. I'm working with Joel to see how much interest there is to see if he will develope for the WRX but since I can't really talk about it here, I will have to let WRX drivers drive the RS at local meets and races to see what they say. Hopefully they will come here and post about it for me!

Anyway, once I work things out with the Mods and figure out exactly what I am and am not allowed to say I will edit this post with the info I have.

Thanks for keeping this thread alive, I am here for you guys, because clutch shudder sucks, and I couldn't be happier that mine is gone!

Email me anytime
-Ryan
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Old 02-17-2003, 07:28 PM   #24
pdximpreza
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Mine started at about 10K. Already took it in once, and they said they couldnt feel it. Personally, the whole tranny/flywheel system isnt all that complicated, so there couldnt be that many things that could cause it. You think it would be easier for them to fix the problem instead of dodging it, and paying for a lot of parts replacement.
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Old 02-17-2003, 10:10 PM   #25
BillJC
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FWIW, 5 liter mustang T5 transmissions had the same type of problem with the worn imputshaft transmission sleeve. OEM was made out of aluminium. The fix was a steel replacment shaft. On a T5 the shaft bolts on so it is easy to replace. Anyway, just letting you know that in other applications, this fix worked.
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