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Old 05-17-2003, 10:17 PM   #1
xephyr
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Exclamation 2.2 turbo legacy shortblock, & gasket choices

I'm posting to clarify a little mis-information I have posted on previous threads. In the past, I have chimed in on the use of 2.2 Turbo Legacy shortblocks for performance applications. I also stated that using the 2000 2.2 gasket would raise your compression ratio, if so desired. Unfortunately, I forgot to consider piston protrusion.

The turbo legacy pistons protrude from the block at TDC by .020-.030 inches. using the standard T.Legacy head gasket (which is thicker than Phase 2's) will allow the piston protrusion from hitting the head. BUT, USING THE THINNER HEADGASKETS MAY ALLOW THE PISTON TO HIT THE HEAD. THEREFORE, I DO NOT RECOMMEND USING THE THINNER PHASE 2 , YEAR 2000 2.2 L HEADGASKETS WITH A TURBO LEGACY SHORTBLOCK.

I checked several phase 2 engines which normally utilize the thinner headgaskets, and those pistons DO NOT protrude at TDC.

Sorry about the mis-info,
Mark R.
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Old 05-17-2003, 10:42 PM   #2
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Thanks for the info Mark, good to know.


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Old 05-18-2003, 01:23 AM   #3
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I didn't check my piston clearance with my Starret gauge but you are telling me that the EJ22T deck height is actually -.020-.030??

That is huge... I have never heard of a deck height that extreme.

The most I have ever done is -.005 on my race engines.

Using my CR calculator, at -.020 with a SOHC EJ25 head gasket (.060" thick) I get a CR of 8.25:1.

At -.030, I get a CR of 8.39:1.

Are you sure it is a negative deck height? How many have you tested? I'm definetly not complaining if that is the case.

Does anyone else have an EJ22T around that they could measure?

I'm guessing this would be the case on any EJ22 Atmo motor also because I think they utilize the same crank and rod lengths.

Thank you for the info
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Old 05-18-2003, 02:37 AM   #4
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I'm positive the piston protrudes. We have several of these blocks laying around, and its really obvious. The 20-30 thou's is a rough estimate we did with a feeler gauge and our finger, but a visual inspection makes it obvious of the deck height difference. The difference isn't because of rod or crank issues, but a difference in piston dimensions. In fact I've noticed this protrusion in certain years of Phase I 2.5 shortblocks long ago, which was what made think of checking the 2.2's. We checked a WRX 2.0 engine tonight, and there appears to be no protrusion whatsoever on it. It appears to me Subaru may have changed piston dimension, and then later changed head gasket thickness to accomodate, or vice versa.
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Old 05-18-2003, 02:40 AM   #5
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Thanks for the tip.

Since you have some laying around, would you mind taking a dial indicator and measuring exactly how much they protrude above the deck. Thanks
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Old 05-18-2003, 11:14 AM   #6
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I'll check it out as soon as I can, and post here.
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Old 05-19-2003, 07:56 AM   #7
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Quote:
I'm positive the piston protrudes. We have several of these blocks laying around, and its really obvious. The 20-30 thou's is a rough estimate we did with a feeler gauge and our finger, but a visual inspection makes it obvious of the deck height difference.
Mark,

Thanks for the warning. However, I can tell you that the one 2.2L turbo shortblock I measured didn't have this feature. The piston is flush with the deck, just like the non-turbo 2.2L block. I should have measured it with a feeler gauge, but since it wasn't visually obvious, I didn't. I also verified the piston volume to be about 28 cc's, as reported by the SDSEFI website.

I spun the crank over a dozen times by hand after installing the thin headgaskets, and didn't feel any binding. I know that Fitz didn't have a problem using thin gaskets on his 2.2L turbo block/SOHC 2.5L head combination, and I know of another hybrid that was successful with 2.5L DOHC heads and thin headgaskets.

Sounds like it would be good practice to check the piston at TDC, regardless, before picking headgaskets.

-WaC
Wayne

P.S. Thanks again for your informative posts.
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Old 05-19-2003, 08:14 AM   #8
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thats the thing... i'm still wondering if the years of production of this block has made information so difficult to consolidate... I don't think its a quality control thing... but some have stated that production from date to date is vastly different could this be one also?


interesting tho... thats why i'm not ready to run 30 psi on my block hehe... i would if i was rich
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Old 05-19-2003, 01:55 PM   #9
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The problem I'm running into is finding a good new block to check. All the stuff I have laying around has random problems such as spun bearings, heavy carbon buildup on pistons, rust from sitting out in the rain, etc, and they are all REALLY high mileage motors. Hopefully I'll find something eventually.

WAC - since you have experience (or know someone who does) with the thin gasket, then it might be OK. I know with my rough estimates there might mathematically be room (just barely), but I didn't feel comfortable telling everyone it was OK!! I'd trust most of you guys would be smart enough to accept my info with slight caution, but it's the unexperienced newbie I worry about. I'd hate to send some one out on the wrong foot for the first time!!

Thanks everyone for the help and info exchange.

Mark R.
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Old 05-19-2003, 03:36 PM   #10
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Default Good Topic

Was gonna ask you Mark about the various head gasket setups that you've seen. This is one of the fitment issues I was talking about in Mechboys EJ22T post. My blocks pistons protrude above the deck a good amout and I'll take home a dail indicator and straight edge tonite and measure. I'll post that later. Wayne's site has a thin SOHC gasket at .058 cm. which is .0228'' ( think my math is rite) which wouldn't work in my case.I'm going to use a Cometic Hp series head gasket in EJ22T form. I just don't know what thickness yet. I wanna keep my CR around 8:1, but I also want as much quenching that I can get.
I was thinking of taking some off the tops of the pistons but one engine builder that works on EJ22T's said I'd be robbing from the ring area and might not be a good idea. Oh what to do.
Thanks for bringing this up.

Later,Tod
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Old 05-19-2003, 06:06 PM   #11
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*runs outside and looks at motor*

Yep, the heads are still on there. EJ22T w/ 2.5 Phase II thin gaskets and 2.5 Phase II SOHC heads.

Quote:
I was thinking of taking some off the tops of the pistons but one engine builder that works on EJ22T's said I'd be robbing from the ring area and might not be a good idea.
I agree. bad idea.

FWIW, keep an eye on your water jackets too. Some of the head gaskets do not allow for coolant to get from the block to the heads and vice versa. This is important with a closed deck motor.

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Old 05-19-2003, 07:18 PM   #12
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What do you currently have your redline set at Fitz? How much boost are you running through the EJ22-T?


Thanks


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Old 05-19-2003, 08:45 PM   #13
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Redline's set at 7000 rpm... Cobb will tell you that the stock Phase II SOHC valves will float at 7200 rpm.

Boost is set at 14 psi.. maxing out my 2 bar map sensor. Three bar is due in this week. I'll be attempting to run 20psi for the Mt Okemo Hillclimb in two weeks.

In my opinion, I'm boost limited by the transmission, not the motor. It's only so long until I frag a gear when you look at the front limited slip and the 265/45/16 Victoracers.

Fitz
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Old 05-19-2003, 11:32 PM   #14
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265......

Thank God for widebody kits. BTW, what wheels are you using on the car. Anything super wide for the street?


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Old 05-19-2003, 11:33 PM   #15
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Also, you have no headwork correct?


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Old 05-20-2003, 12:06 AM   #16
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Default uh humm

We'll I have some measurements, but I must ask fitz, Why do you agree to not taking anything off the pistons. You don't know yet what the protrusion is? Do you know how much area is in between the crown and the ring land. What is the acceptable amount for this. Also, the post that this came from was about DOHC heads and EJ22T blocks for the most part, and Mark in this post was refering to the 2.2 NA head gasket to raise compresson , not the 2.5 SOHC gasket. Are those the same thickness? Any idea what your CR is? Did you figure it out on your own or did go by a chart you saw on the internet. Just hoping you have some answers seems you've been their done that.


Later ,Tod
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Old 05-20-2003, 07:20 AM   #17
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Default Re: uh humm

Quote:
Also, the post that this came from was about DOHC heads and EJ22T blocks for the most part, and Mark in this post was refering to the 2.2 NA head gasket to raise compresson , not the 2.5 SOHC gasket. Are those the same thickness? Any idea what your CR is? Did you figure it out on your own or did go by a chart you saw on the internet. Just hoping you have some answers seems you've been their done that.
Tod,

You can't use a 2.2L NA headgasket with the 2.5L heads without modifications - half the coolant holes are blocked off. Mark is referring to using the Legacy Turbo 2.2L headgaskets. They're the same construction and thickness as the NA headgaskets, but with different coolant passage holes. I have compared and measured all the 2.2L and 2.5L headgaskets to verify my numbers. In addition, Fitz and I took the volume measurements on our own engines to calculate CR numbers (he helped with my chart).

Hope this helps,

-WaC
Wayne
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Old 05-20-2003, 10:08 AM   #18
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Thanks for the info on actually measuring the CR Wayne. Mark's post above was talking about the phase2 2.2 head gasket. Like I said in my first post I'm gonna use a Cometic HP series EJ22T headgasket. Just don't know what thickness yet. The pistons on my new EJ22T block go past the deck,
#1 .010"
#2 .010"
#3 .0095"
#4 .0075"

That leaves about .012" of room between the top of the piston and the head if you use the phase2 SOHC gasket. Maybe less if thats not the compressed measurement. Seems scary close to me. Whats is the correct space supposed to be? Fitz,did you measure his how far the pistons protruded above deck on your block?
I was told the stock EJ22T headgasket compressed down to .066" and you would have a CR of 8.2 :1. Does that sound rite Wayne? Is their anything I can do while I have my setup apart to get some more numbers on things for your site? Thanks Guys
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Old 05-20-2003, 11:10 AM   #19
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Quote:
Thanks for the info on actually measuring the CR Wayne. Mark's post above was talking about the phase2 2.2 head gasket. Like I said in my first post I'm gonna use a Cometic HP series EJ22T headgasket. Just don't know what thickness yet. The pistons on my new EJ22T block go past the deck,
#1 .010"
#2 .010"
#3 .0095"
#4 .0075"

That leaves about .012" of room between the top of the piston and the head if you use the phase2 SOHC gasket. Maybe less if thats not the compressed measurement. Seems scary close to me. Whats is the correct space supposed to be? Fitz,did you measure his how far the pistons protruded above deck on your block?
I was told the stock EJ22T headgasket compressed down to .066" and you would have a CR of 8.2 :1. Does that sound rite Wayne? Is their anything I can do while I have my setup apart to get some more numbers on things for your site? Thanks Guys
I had incorrectly interpreted Mark's statement as "the 2000 2.5 gasket would raise your compression ratio, if so desired". I always thought every 2.2L engine from 1997-2001 have the same compression ratio and headgaskets. I have yet to measure a 2000 2.2L headgasket, so I can't confirm nor deny this.

Thanks for the numbers. I should have done the same when the block was still out two weeks ago. I'd think any measurable clearance is OK - just consider that all 2000+ 2.5L SOHC engines have flat cylinder head decks in combination with the thin headgasket, where there is at most 0.023" clearance.

I'm not sure where you got the 8.2 CR number from? I calculated 7.7 with the thin headgasket and 7.2 with the thick headgasket. I measured the headgasket thickness/gap after the heads were torqued down using the Subaru procedure, and found the thick one (2.5L DOHC and 2.2L SOHC) compressed down to about 0.060" and the thin one to about 0.023".

Can you please cc your piston and cylinder head to confirm the numbers that I have? I presume you are using a turbo block with 2.5L SOHC heads? No, thank you for helping too!

-WaC
Wayne
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Old 05-20-2003, 01:27 PM   #20
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The 2.2 Phase 2 gasket (year 2000) is basically the same material and thickness gasket as the Phase 2 2.5 gasket, just a different bore. I measured the two side by side at the dealership , but neglected to write any numbers down. (dammit!).

It sure is confusing having all these numbers with 2's in them !! (2.2L, 2.5L, year 2000, phase 2, etc.)
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Old 05-20-2003, 03:45 PM   #21
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Thank you for measureing! It's nice to know that If this is true on all the blocks, we are around 8.0:1 CR that 7.7
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Old 05-20-2003, 08:24 PM   #22
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Default Re: Good Topic

Quote:
Originally posted by todnar
Was gonna ask you Mark about the various head gasket setups that you've seen.
I guess I never answered your question. Sorry!

Anyways, I've experimented with both thin and thick 2.5 headgaskets on a previous 2.5 engine buildup experience. This was a long time ago, and I went through 6 engines due to random issues, most of which was because wiseco and J&E pistons had a hard time understanding the nuances of Subaru engines (i.e. split block, wrist pin location, ring location, short skirt, etc.) Throughout those engines, I did notice a dramatic difference between the compression ratios, as far as how much boost I could run, and how much timing I could run as well.

Since then, I have ultimately settled on using the T. Legacy option, which has been surprisingly very reliable, and successful. I have contemplated using the thinner gaskets, but wanted to tentatively ponder all the angles involved to make sure (example: deck height difference).

Thanks to you guys here on the board, a lot of the mysteries appeared to have been cleared up.

I do know of people who used gaskets to LOWER their compression ratio, for turbo charging. A friend of mine took his 2000 Impreza 2.5 RS, installed the thicker headgaskets, and also replaced the pistons with 1998 Phase I pistons (which he thought had a bigger cc dish), and estimated his compression ratio to be in the low 9's:1. That worked well for him for a long time, until he got carried away with cranking up the boost and utimately crushed a piston.

Hope this helps.
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Old 05-21-2003, 03:05 PM   #23
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Thanks for the info Mark. Wayne, I was looking at your site some more and you don't have the stock EJ22T gasket with the 98 DOHC heads on a turbo block. I forgot to mention so far that I'm using MY98 DOHC heads. If you use a EJ22T headgasket, which lets just say it compresses down to .066", what would the CR be. I don't know how to figure that out. I can get the Cometic gasket in EJ22T form in sizes .030,.036,.043, and .057". Which of these would work out to 8:1.
I'll cc the cylinder asap. The heads are being dropped off today to get cleaned up enough to get rid of the 2.5 fire ring marks. I'll cc them later after I get them put back together.
Thanks in advance for figuring the above out.
Unless Eric beats ya to it


Later, Tod
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Old 05-21-2003, 05:37 PM   #24
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Quote:
Wayne, I was looking at your site some more and you don't have the stock EJ22T gasket with the 98 DOHC heads on a turbo block. I forgot to mention so far that I'm using MY98 DOHC heads. If you use a EJ22T headgasket, which lets just say it compresses down to .066", what would the CR be. I don't know how to figure that out. I can get the Cometic gasket in EJ22T form in sizes .030,.036,.043, and .057". Which of these would work out to 8:1.
Tod,

I do have the 98 DOHC head/EJ22T block/EJ22T thick gasket combo listed. I calculated it to about 7.4:1.

I also calculated that you get about 8.0:1 with the DOHC head/EJ22T block/SOHC thin gasket combo.

I'd suggest going with the 0.030" gasket, since it's the thinnest and is the closest match to the SOHC gasket. What is the construction like on the Cometic gasket? Is it a single piece of stamped steel like the SOHC thin gaskets, or is it a composite type like the EJ22T thick gasket, or even a multi-layer steel construction like the newer DOHC gasket that supercedes older composite designs? You may still need to o-ring if it's a composite type, depending on how much boost you intend to run.

Hope this helps,

-WaC
Wayne
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Old 05-22-2003, 09:58 AM   #25
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Ok my bad. I see it now. I was hoping that 2nd line down on the chart was using the 2.5 thick gasket and if you used the smaller bore 2.2 thick gasket it would raise the CR to where I wanted it.

The Cometic Hp series gasket is a 3 piece multilayer stainless with a fourth layer in the bore shim ( or some people call it the fire ring) that is .003" thicker. This fourth layer shim is supposed to take the place of o ringing with composite gaskets.
It's got .001" of viton coating and is embossed around the jackets. Hope I got that all right, I take less than desirable notes.
It's for aluminum applications only. Their about $52.00 a piece.

I'm not saying this the way to go, but I'm gonna give them a shot and see what happens. Of course I'm a ways away from boost now because I'm spending all my S/C fund on this motor. By the way, Trey is who told me about Cometic. Don't know if they use the HP series or if they use cometic at all. I talked to Jason at Cometic for the above description.

Later ,Tod
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