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Old 09-02-2003, 11:06 PM   #1
Camperguy
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I use to have a WRX :(

Question Dont know where to post this(need chemical eng type info{sythetic base stock comp})

Ok chemical sniffer guys what is the difference between these base stocks.I`m just curious which is the better base to build a synthetic oil from and why.

POA`s

Hydoisomerized petroleum

Polyalphaolefin (poa?)

Dibasic Organic Ester

Esther polymer

Polyol ester

Please be specific but still coherient to us of the less educated

Thanks Bill
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Old 09-03-2003, 07:01 PM   #2
Camperguy
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?Bump?

Bill
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Old 09-04-2003, 11:14 PM   #3
Camperguy
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Wink Never mind.....

Ok I got this far...

Group I & II = mineral basestocks(Dino oil)
Group III are Hydroisomerized mineral oils(Castrol Syntec,Pennzoil,Valvoline Synpor,QuakerState Synquest,Exxon Synthetic)
Group IV Polyalphaolefin (Mobil 1)
Group V Dibasic/Polyol ester (Redline,Amsoil,Silkolene,Royal Purple).

Basically the Higher the Group the better the oil.Now Group III are boarder line sythetics and cost about 1/3 the price of POA and considering most oil contains 80-90% basestock if you get a Group III oil for $4.00 a qt you are getting ripped off.The Ester base oil is more expensive and is just better all around.I couldnt find any other company besides Mobil that uses POA`s as its basestock.

The most common types of synthetic basestocks are PAOs and esters. PAOs
are mixtures of pure synthetic isoparaffins which have excellent thermal
and oxidative stability (no unsaturates), great low temperature fluidity
(no waxes), and a high viscosity index (no aromatics or naphthenics). On
the downside, they have poor detergency and dispersency characteristics,
low additive solubility, and tend to shrink and harden some seals. Esters
are similar to PAOs except that the molecules have some oxygen atoms in
them which gives them polarity. This gives esters some advantages over PAOs
like lower volatility, better lubricity, higher oxidative stability,
excellent additive solubility, and good detergency and dispersency. The
downsides of esters are higher price and a tendency to swell and soften
some seals.

Since the differences between PAOs and esters compliment each other, most
synthetic motor oil formulations contain mixtures of both, mostly the
lower-cost PAO with about 10 to 20% ester to balance off their downsides.
The original synthetic motor oils of 25 years ago were based on 100% ester
(as are all jet engine oils today), but PAOs became more popular in the
late 70s due to their much lower cost. Today the market is trending toward
severely hydrocracked mineral oils which are even cheaper than mineral oils
- and they are being called "synthetic".

As an aside, polarity provides four important properties:
1. Polar molecules are attracted to each other, therefore requiring more
energy (heat) to break into the vapor phase. This translates to lower vapor
pressure, lower volatility, and higher flash point.
2. Polar molecules are attracted to metal surfaces and line up on the
surfaces forming a protective film. This translates into improved
lubricity and fuel efficiency, and to a lesser degree some wear protection.
3. Polar molecules are good solvents (detergents) and are attracted to
solid particles, helping to disperse them. This makes them much cleaner
with respect to varnish and sludge.
4. The polar oxygen groups provide a site for microbe attack making the
molecules biodegradable.

Synthetic basestocks offer some significant benefits to motor oils. The
higher thermal and oxidative stability allows longer life at high
temperatures; the lack of waxes and the high VI offer much better flow at
low temperatures; the lower volatility offers less oil consumption; and the
combination of these properties offers better fuel efficiency and some
reduced wear (mainly on cold starts). They do not, however, change your
tires or wash your windows... <g>

I hope I didnt bore you guys but you know what they say...."Knowledge is power"

EDIT If anyone says all oils/synthetics are the same you know their full of ***** and just dont know any better

Bill
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Old 09-05-2003, 04:19 AM   #4
nhluhr
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that's some great information. May I ask for your references on this information?

-nick
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Old 09-05-2003, 08:28 AM   #5
DrD
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Default Re: Never mind.....

Quote:
Originally posted by Camperguy
EDIT If anyone says all oils/synthetics are the same you know their full of ***** and just dont know any better
Agreed - I think that when statements like that are made, they are the result of people taking the idea too far that synthetics may be, in many cases, overkill for the application.

Personally - all synthetic for me (mobil 1 in the crankcase, and Motul in the transmission/rear diff - Motul is also ester based) - for a blown 4-banger, I can't imagine using anything else...
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Old 09-05-2003, 05:17 PM   #6
Camperguy
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally posted by nhluhr
that's some great information. May I ask for your references on this information?

-nick
Various internet sites.Manufactures sites and MSDS specs on arious brands.I actually found a Exxon/Mobil site in France that has a very detailed explination of the whole hydrocracking process for various grades of basestocks.It was way to much info for someone who just pilled a 16hr shift


Bill
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