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Old 10-21-2003, 01:46 PM   #1
sponaugle
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Default PDXWRX Dyno Day Take 2 - Results

First and formost, Thanks to everyone involved. In particular to Clark and Mike who flew up here from AZ to tune both ECUTek and UTEC. There were something like 15 total cars to tune, so it was a sleepless weekend for them.

Also thanks to Jeremy and crew at Matrix Engineering for providing excellent dyno facilities. Lastly, Thanks to James Sponaugle for organizing all of the schedules and fees, and keeping everything running on schedule.

On to the results:

Before we look at the modifieds, let get a baseline. This is a Mustang AW-Dyno, which has a calibration setting that can be changed. It is important to get a baseline from a known car to compare to other dynos.

We had two such baselines for this session. Two stock WRXs. The first WRX got 161HP, and the second got 152HP.
These numbers correspond well to the Dyno Dynamics that Clark uses in AZ. It does not correlate with the Mustang numbers that Shiv has in his HP spreadsheet. This is most likly caused by a change in the calibration files on this dyno. Remember this when comparing these resuls to other dyno posts. TurboXS shows a stock Stock WRX at 168.4 hp@5731 rpm and 171.8 ft-lbs@3540 rpm.


First up: The Hybrid 2.5!

This is my car, which is a 2002 WRX with a US 2.5 STI block, JDM STI RA Spec C heads, FP TD06h-20g-8cm turbo, 800cc injectors, etc. The ECU is a AG970 RA Spec C ECU with ECUTek reflash, plus a UTEC on top.

Four runs in this first graph set
(1) A stock WRX
(2) Tim Baily's Us STI, Stock everything except a 3" exhaust and MBC at 16psi.
(3) My car in 'Street Trim'
This is 1.4 bar of boost, 92 octane gas + Toluene, Water Injection turned off for tuning (used only as safty margin).
(4) My car in 'Race Trim'
This is 1.65 bar of boost, C16 Racing gas




Peak HP with the Race gas was 368 awhp@6000 RPM.
Peak Torque is 335 ft-lbs@5500 RPM
Using the Shiv Sheet, this translates to 516HP at the crank. (again, this is just make believe conversion)

Comments: This setup is simply amazing. This level of power was achieved with very mininal ignition advance, and the motor seems to be taking it in great stride. I didn't get a single knock event the entire tuning session. The difference in low end torque from my previous setup is just incredible. The car is much more
drivable around town, and has more downright thrust then ever before. The top end is a bit soft, especially compared to my previous 2.0 high boost setup. This needs a bigger turbo for sure. The AVO500 is going on shortly, and I will dyno it soon. Thanks to both Clark and Mike for helping to get this running so well.

The combo of the EcUTek reflash and a well tuned UTEC is a perfect combo. Due to time limitations, the Race map was not complete. AFs were still in the mid 11s.
A more lean map, and just a touch more advance should eaisly net a good 400 awhp.

I should also note that I am using a 3.0" Perrin MAF tube, but still had problems hitting the maximum flow of the MAF sensor. This translates to more than 350g/sec of flow. A 3.25" tube is in order.

Next up: Adam Koppel's WRX Beast.

Adam is running an MY01 JDM STI motor with 6 speed tranny, 740cc injectors, PE1820 turbo, JDM ECU, 3" Perrin MAF Tube, etc.

Three runs in this graph set:
(1) A stock WRX
(2) Adam's 'Street Trim' - 1.4 bar of boost, 92 octane + Toluene, Water Injection
(3) Adam's 'Race Trim' - 1.6 bar of boost, C16 Race Gas.




Peak HP is 300 awhp@6700 RPM, and Peak Torque is 252 ft-lbs@6000RPM
Using the Shiv Sheet, this translates to 420HP at the crank. (again, this is just make believe conversion)

Comments: Adam's car has the most linear feeling pull of any of the cars we dynoed. His race setup was very limited because he was only adjusting the fuel trims with an SAFC for the C16. The car could get another 20-40HP with some ignition advance. Also, the AFs for the race setup were still around 11.8-12:1, not getting upto 12.5:1 where C16 shines.

Next up: Wendy's WRX

Two runs in this graph. Her stock setup run, and ECUTek Reflash run. Here car is bone stock except for a replacement uppipe.

Stock: 152 awhp@6200 rpm, 147 ft-lbs@4500 rpm
Reflash: 188 awhp@6000 rpm, 176 ft-lbs@4500 rpm




Comments: For a stock car, it is amazing how much a good reflash can improve this. This is a jump of 35 awhp and 29 ft-lbs of torque. Not bad for just a software change. This was of course on 92 octane gas.

Next up: Flint's WRX

Two runs in this graph. First is the baseline, second is with UTEC tuning. This car had a stock ECU with UTEC, VF35 turbo, STI Injectors, fuel pump, 3" exhaust and uppipe.
Clark did about 45 mins of dyno tuning with the UTEC.

Baseline before tune: 192 awhp@6200 rpm, 181 ft-lbs@5200 rpm.
After UTEC tune: 240 awhp@6400 rpm, 211 ft-lbs@5500 rpm.





Comments: The VF35 is a great spooling turbo. Flints car has stock torque and hp until about 3300 rpm, then it rips away.

Here are some combo graphs that have all of the above cars on a single chart.





Next up is a more details look at some datalogs on one of the 368hp runs, plus more dyno runs from some of the other cars. (I still have a few datafiles to go thru and graph)

Jeff Sponaugle
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Old 10-21-2003, 01:59 PM   #2
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Here is a datagraph from one of the 368awhp runs.



There are a couple of interesting things to note here:

First: Timing advance peaked at 25 degrees, and was in the low 20s in the peak power point. Knock link never lit up past second green. I think a bit more advance up to could pull a few more HP out, but no need to stress things more.

Second: Fuel Injector maximum duty was 70%. That's nice, as it leaves lots of headroom and good control. These were the PE800s with 55psi static FP.

Third: Boost control was a big problem, and a limiting factor for higher HP. The 20G wastegate door was getting blown open at high RPM. We added a small spring to the wastegate, which did help out, but not enough. Boost still fell off to below 1.5 by redline. A 19lb spring wastegate would help a lot more. As would a bigger turbo.. this 2.5 comsumes 25% more CFM, so bigger flow is better.

[Remember the Deltadash can't read above 1.5 bar, which is why the graph is pegged most of the run.]

Jeff Sponaugle
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:07 PM   #3
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Great job as usual Jeff. I've been waiting for these results!

Only have 2 comments (and you touched on both of them), theres alot more in Adams setup on C16 and you need to get that AVO500 back on there. That 20G resulted in what appears to be an awesome streetable turbo but its dropping off up high.

Glad to see Flints car finally get tuned as well, I bet hes happy
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:15 PM   #4
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I would also imagine Flint is much happier.

Thanks for posting this Jeff.

-Jon
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:20 PM   #5
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WoW best thread evar.

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Old 10-21-2003, 02:21 PM   #6
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I'm hoping that mike/clark can work up a user tunable map on the ECUtek for me. Currently, their is no AF481 user tunable map, so I'm kinda stuck with an S-AFC and no timing advance. Also my boost wasn't coming ALL the way on until about 5500RPM (it was sitting at about 1.55 bar until then). Just ran out of time (and nerve, kinda scary when Sponaugle's telling me to get my butt "back in the car, turn up the boost to 1.8 bar, take out more fuel! YOU HAVE 7 MINUTES LEFT!!"

I need to pull my IDCs the injectors I have as well - they are a custom setup I hope to be selling in the near future to folks (imagine 740cc, no cutting harness', no CEL, idles perfect, and for $300).

I've now added a MBC on top of the AVC-R to help with spoolup, seems to have helped. The PE1820 just BEGS to boost to 1.6 bar... so for now I'm letting it do that. Kinda scary on the street

My car just feels insane now ("it just keeps pulling!"), and Jeff's car pulls stuff out of peoples pockets when he gets on it (litterally, I've seen it pull a cell phone and some change out from the acceleration!)
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:23 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarthChicken


I need to pull my IDCs the injectors I have as well - they are a custom setup I hope to be selling in the near future to folks (imagine 740cc, no cutting harness', no CEL, idles perfect, and for $300).



Get ready for a billion pm's, emails, and replies to this thread about that one
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:30 PM   #8
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And thats fine - lets keep this thread on topic though, I'll start a new thread when I know more.

Anyway... this dyno broke my heart. Last time we were there, I pulled down 290whp on a VF22. Now my street tune is 280whp (on a PE1820). Obviously parastic file used was a WEE bit higher load
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:34 PM   #9
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How do them compair with your butt dyno Adam? PE1820 is the hands down winner between the two, yes?
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:39 PM   #10
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I prefer the "eyeball test". How far back does it push your eyeballs back into your socket, and how long does it hold them there

The VF22 comes on hard... hits like a brick, and then eases off. I think this is why its such a trani breaker.

The PE1820 comes on a bit more gentle (it pushes, it doesn't kick you) but it just holds you down. The PE1820 is a LOT more powerful turbo than the VF22 from a butt dyno standpoint.

The results this time were about 9.8% lower reading on a stock car compared to last time to give you an idea... which is about 30whp in this case.
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:40 PM   #11
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Jeff AWESOME results.. WHat is the max hp/tq difference between your jdm motor and the 2.5 with the same turbo? Also what are your impressions of the 2.5l over the last week or so? I am in a overwhelming state right no trying to decide JDM 2.0 or 2.5 with V7 heads.. Some say the 2.5 block is weak as are internals some say otherwise, what is your take on this?

Once again great job and numbers..

Dave
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:47 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarthChicken
*snip* and Jeff's car pulls stuff out of peoples pockets when he gets on it (litterally, I've seen it pull a cell phone and some change out from the acceleration!)
Now that's what I'm talking about.

-Jon
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:50 PM   #13
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Nice post Jeff! You are an graphing wizard!

Dont forget that on that 368hp pull you had ALOT of wheel spin on the rollers!!!


Adam, We are working on it... When the user tune is available you will be the first to have it. There is alot more power in your C16 map. Just need some more advance... I bet I can get 340 out of it...

Clark
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:53 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally posted by AZScoobie
Nice post Jeff! You are an graphing wizard!

Dont forget that on that 368hp pull you had ALOT of wheel spin on the rollers!!!

C'mon Jeff i know you have to have some video of this!
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Old 10-21-2003, 02:55 PM   #15
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Thanks Jeff!
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Old 10-21-2003, 03:43 PM   #16
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Really nice numbers. I'm have been curious to see some IDC graphs for larger injectors, such as your 800 CC's. You definetely still have some room to work with on them, thats nice.

You said they were Perrin injectors?



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Old 10-21-2003, 04:30 PM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by cronic
Jeff AWESOME results.. WHat is the max hp/tq difference between your jdm motor and the 2.5 with the same turbo? Also what are your impressions of the 2.5l over the last week or so? I am in a overwhelming state right no trying to decide JDM 2.0 or 2.5 with V7 heads.. Some say the 2.5 block is weak as are internals some say otherwise, what is your take on this?

Once again great job and numbers..

Dave

Damn Cronic, its like you knew exactly what I was thinking. Jeff I would like to know your impressions of this setup also. Anyone else have to comment on the USDM's 2.5 internals?



Anthony
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Old 10-21-2003, 04:34 PM   #18
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Quote:
Originally posted by Graham
Really nice numbers. I'm have been curious to see some IDC graphs for larger injectors, such as your 800 CC's. You definetely still have some room to work with on them, thats nice.

You said they were Perrin injectors?

Graham
Yep.. A bit more boost was in order.. but I'll get the AVO500 back on there soon and that should be able to push some more. The injectors are 800cc PE's, along with Perrin Fuel Rails, and a Perrin 3" MAF tube.

Jeff
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Old 10-21-2003, 04:40 PM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by MACHWRX
Damn Cronic, its like you knew exactly what I was thinking. Jeff I would like to know your impressions of this setup also. Anyone else have to comment on the USDM's 2.5 internals?

Anthony
More comments to come in a few days, but so far:

I'm driving around town with the street setup, which was about 330awhp. It is so much more usable power, and the engine is a smooth as my stock car was. Clark and Mike did a GREAT job of getting the PE's to idle perfecly.

While I love the hi-reving 2.0, honestly I don't think I can go back. The street feel of this 2.5 is just awesome.. so much more zippy around 3k, and boost is very fast to come on. At the drag strip, I think there will be less difference... but on the street...

As far as relability, time will tell. As it is running now, it feels very strong, and has no knock problems at all.. The STI RA heads seem to be a good combo, and even with the 8.6+.:1 compression ratio, things work well.. The piston dish design on the 2.5 seems pretty good.

I think to make this kind of combo work well, you need a few things minimum:

Good injectors with headroom (650/800).
A ECUTek reflashed ECU.
And for racing or for launch control, a UTEC.
Good heads.. The STI or STI RA heads seem to fit the bill.

Personally, I would never be without the ECUTek reflash/UTEC combo. It makes for a perfect, configurable setup that I can tune and that acts reliable to my changes.

I'll have more info with another week of driving, but for a daily driver, I have a huge smile when I arrive at work every day.

Jeff
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Old 10-21-2003, 04:46 PM   #20
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Thanks.. I think that the 2.5 is right for me.. I only want to make 300whp but reliably and my car is purley street.. I wonder if i can grab 300whp with my 1820 on the sti injectors wiith out taxing them too much..

Keep the info coming...

Lastly do you have any graphs comparing the 2.0 RA against the 2.5/RA heads with the 20g equiped? I would like to see the differences there.. Oh and cant you rev out the 257 a bit more due to the RA valvetrain?

Thanks
Dave

Last edited by cronic; 10-21-2003 at 04:52 PM.
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Old 10-21-2003, 04:58 PM   #21
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Really depends on the dyno (my 300whp would be well over 350 on some dynos). I had to take my car up to 1.7 bar to get there with the STI engine (on race gas). Its still a bit rich though, and I can't adjust the timing, so I'm not exactly tuned out - as Clark said, we're probably leaving 40whp sitting on the table.

You want 300whp, or do you want a specific 1/4 mile time/speed?
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Old 10-21-2003, 05:02 PM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarthChicken
Really depends on the dyno (my 300whp would be well over 350 on some dynos). I had to take my car up to 1.7 bar to get there with the STI engine (on race gas). Its still a bit rich though, and I can't adjust the timing, so I'm not exactly tuned out - as Clark said, we're probably leaving 40whp sitting on the table.

You want 300whp, or do you want a specific 1/4 mile time/speed?
I want 300 on a DD which is similar.. I definetly dont want that level of boost.. I figured with 2.5 V7 heads,1820,ect i would hit it,,
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Old 10-21-2003, 05:07 PM   #23
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I'll try to get Sponaugle to go out with me sometime this week and do a DD log of my car... thats a great idea actually. I had 287whp on the DD with the VF22 before last weeks round of mods. That was STi injectors, toluene mix (20%) and VF22@20psi at 11:1 A/F with water injection.

This feels a LOT stronger than 13whp
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Old 10-21-2003, 06:06 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by DarthChicken
I'll try to get Sponaugle to go out with me sometime this week and do a DD log of my car... thats a great idea actually. I had 287whp on the DD with the VF22 before last weeks round of mods. That was STi injectors, toluene mix (20%) and VF22@20psi at 11:1 A/F with water injection.

This feels a LOT stronger than 13whp
I meant dyno dynamics but do that for ****'s and giggles also..
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Old 10-21-2003, 06:24 PM   #25
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So if the 20g week on top at 1.4 or 1.65 or both. I thought about it as a replacement ofr my VF30 when I install the EJ25, just going to run 17-20 not thing more so was hoping that it would do. It will be interesting to see how my heads do, in comparison to the RA ones, they are Stock WRX with 264 cams, upgraded springs. I may still have them proted but might try them with out it first.

Great info.

BTW if you want to sell that 20g
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