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Old 12-07-2003, 10:53 PM   #1
Diversion
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Default GTSpec headers make power? You sure?

Before the header.. would always be dead even with my friends WRX which has identical modifications as me.. so to see the "gain" from the GTSpec headers we went out tonight and ran a few times... each time he steadily pulled past me and kept pulling.. 1 car.. and if we went past 110 mph he'd have kept pulling hard.. The uppipe is wrapped.. but the header isn't.

So people who have this header or are thinking about buying one.. take my experience into thought. I'm waiting for the big header dyno comparison that Dylan is doing soon for some real life results compared to other headers.. and then I will decide to keep or sell this. I am impressed by the craftmanship of the GT Spec header.. but the claim of it making an upwards of 20 whp and 20+ wheel torque is anything but truth.

Jay
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:01 PM   #2
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did u go out and run right after install of the header.
if so, give the ECU a few days to relearn and then go and run ur friend again. it may be a diff outcome.

butt dynos are not very accurate and it would be unfair to say to people not to buy it.

there are too many variables to why u got pulled on like that anyways.

do a before/after dyno run.
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:06 PM   #3
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Me and my friend have raced each other plenty of times.. on different days, different temps, etc. etc. and we are always VERY close or even.. it's been about 3 weeks since i've had the header, so the ECU is "adjusted" (even though it doesn't need adjusting to a header anyways) ..

So the ONLY variable between his car and mine is the header.. and i'm slower now. Considerably at that.

Jay
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:11 PM   #4
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Don't forget about my silicon IC hoses and polished TB. Also remember my midrange boost was 16.7psi in 4th, yours was likely lower. I bet on a different night results would be different.
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:13 PM   #5
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But Mike, even with your tb and hoses we are MUCH more even than we were tonight..

Jay
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:18 PM   #6
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That's why I think it's just "one of those nights". Look how mine did at g-ville, and it feels worlds better this week. What was your boost anyhow?
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:22 PM   #7
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I was holding a little over 16 that last run we had.. just seems like it tapers down a lot worse than the factory header though..

I suppose we will have to try it again so other day to confirm.

Jay
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:26 PM   #8
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Gives us an excuse to race again.. BTW, we did this on a sanctioned race track, and there were no other cars within 5 miles.
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:28 PM   #9
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Gotta love sanctioned race tracks within minutes of your home.

Jay
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Old 12-07-2003, 11:58 PM   #10
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i've seen dyno plots with gains.....................? weird
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Old 12-08-2003, 12:20 AM   #11
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You sure you dont have a leak somewhere?
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Old 12-08-2003, 12:54 AM   #12
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I always felt the up pipe was too big and that it would lose velocity.
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Old 12-08-2003, 12:56 AM   #13
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Default Re: GTSpec headers make power? You sure?

Quote:
Originally posted by Diversion
but the claim of it making an upwards of 20 whp and 20+ wheel torque is anything but truth.
Well, I must pull off my exhaust manifold because of this undisputable scientific data.

Please don't badmouth a product if you do not have any solid statistical data or even some remote piece of hard evidence.
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Old 12-08-2003, 02:04 AM   #14
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what other mods do u have?
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Old 12-08-2003, 02:20 AM   #15
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ironicly, I just pulled off a GT Spec header to find exhaust leaks at the heads instead of the up pipe.
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Old 12-08-2003, 02:22 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by FJP
ironicly, I just pulled off a GT Spec header to find exhaust leaks at the heads instead of the up pipe.
Was there any sound to indicate you had a leak there?
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Old 12-08-2003, 02:37 AM   #17
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I think this is to be expected with the headers... Since you guys raced from a roll, it is very likely that your headers had cooled down before you got on the gas.. This meant that with cooler gases, you would miss your taget boost...

Your boost should also fall off a little quicker too on the top end due to the fact that boost is a measure of resistance, and since the headers are freer flowing than stock, and the stock turbo doesn't do much on the top end... so boost falls off quicker...

You really need to wrap or coat those headers.... and get a bigger turbo than stock...

The stock turbo seems more biased towards producing lots of midrange punch, and the stock headers work by exaggerate this tendency also. By removing the stock headers, you remove some of this torque I think, for the expense of more power up top (which the stocker cannot give), It is this lost mid range that gives your friend the jump..
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Old 12-08-2003, 03:15 AM   #18
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I agree with Jigga. I have seen a difference from .65 bar to .8 bar depending on temp of the pipes. They need a bit of heat thrown through them. Wrap the header and when you have the gaskets out spray them with RTV silicone gasket spray. This will help hinder any leaks. Do all header gaskets IMO.
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Old 12-08-2003, 03:16 AM   #19
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Wrap the headers. Mine are coated and wrapped. Turbos work off exhaust ENERGY which includes: heat, flow, and velocity.

Get a bigger turbo

And like FJP said check for leaks, mine had leaks at the head and uppipe before and never made noise. A simple gasket change fixed those.
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Old 12-08-2003, 03:35 AM   #20
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The car is so loud it would be hard to tell. It uses a Ti 80mm non resonated exhaust and a PDE downpipe on a S202 STi motor. The car is freakin fast. At 7000 rpms, the tires totally break loose until the 8000 rpm redline. This happens in first and second gears. The motor was never run without the header, so there is no comparison data.
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Old 12-08-2003, 03:36 AM   #21
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forgot, I had leaks at head to header gaskets.

Mine are coated and wrapped as well. At bare minimum spend the $40 on wrap and clamps and wrap them up.

I have a gen 1 set and finally broke down and just had the up pipe welded to the header. It all goes in as one piece with the mtor in the car. Tight fit, but it can be done. Gauaranteed to not have any more up pipe leaks
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Old 12-08-2003, 04:10 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally posted by East Coast Scooby
forgot, I had leaks at head to header gaskets.

Mine are coated and wrapped as well. At bare minimum spend the $40 on wrap and clamps and wrap them up.

I have a gen 1 set and finally broke down and just had the up pipe welded to the header. It all goes in as one piece with the mtor in the car. Tight fit, but it can be done. Gauaranteed to not have any more up pipe leaks
Not worried about vibration?

Rich
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Old 12-08-2003, 09:13 AM   #23
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Default Re: Re: GTSpec headers make power? You sure?

Quote:
Originally posted by DragonReborn
Well, I must pull off my exhaust manifold because of this undisputable scientific data.

Please don't badmouth a product if you do not have any solid statistical data or even some remote piece of hard evidence.
I never bad-mouthed this product, I actually praised it's high quality craftmanship. In fact, the GTSpec header is much more impressive to me than the $900 GPMoto.

I simply stated that I got slower from after the install of this product.

Jay
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Old 12-08-2003, 09:15 AM   #24
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Following up to everyone elses post...

If I have an exhaust leak, it's not audible at all. Nor is it visible while inspecting the flanges. I'm dropping it this coming weekend to wrap it up. Would you think because it's freezing outside and not having the header wrapped be why it hurt my performance? Cold air blowing over it can't be good I guess.. Not sure really.

Anyways, I'm not giving up on it just yet.. I'll try a few things, make sure there are no leaks and wrap it up and I will post new results.

Jay
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Old 12-08-2003, 09:15 AM   #25
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I have personally seen gains with these headers time and time again on the dyno so I have no doubt they work very well but tuning them is going to give you the most out of them and always tell people they are better suited for larger than stock turbos.
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Old 12-08-2003, 09:21 AM   #26
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Is it possible at all that during the building process of these headers that the diameter of the runners can be different from one another?

Jay
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Old 12-08-2003, 10:51 AM   #27
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when i put the gp-moto on my car with stock turbo i picked up a little bit of lag but it felt a lot stronger past 4.5k. The topend got a big boost in power, measured by the butt-dyno. Now with a bigger turbo it is multiplied i suppose, pulling hard all the way to redline in most cases. 1st gear builds 17psi at most, right at redline. The boost shoots up around 5k and builds up until i let off to shift. Anyhow heatwrapping did help spoolup i belive, but it all came apart from the pipes shifting and me not putting enough clamps on it. Took several hours to do, and thats with another person helping. Im going to get them coated instead, which is what i should have done in the first place.

Jeff
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Old 12-08-2003, 11:03 AM   #28
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Jeff, where are you going to get your GPMoto coated?
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Old 12-08-2003, 01:48 PM   #29
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plus don't forget to pull your negative battery terminal. I.E. reset your ecu. I believe it takes roughly 50 miles to adapt after that.

Not worried about vibration. You figure they were bolted together from the get go so they were nearly a solid piece. If I had removed a flex joint then I would be worried of vibration
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Old 12-08-2003, 03:19 PM   #30
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I am not really sure why people expect almost to need to tune for almost every mod they perform up to and including grounding mods (j/k) but then think that a header should not be tuned for.

That said I have not had a single customer experience any loss of performance with the internally and externally coated GT-Spec headers we sell whether additional tuning was performed or not. And every customer that has done further tuning after installation has come back raving about how pleased they were with the net results.

Unless you reset the ECU it doesn't matter how long you have driven it there are timing zones that may not adapt to the changed environment. At a minimum reset the ECU and advance the multiplier to properly get the ECU ready to fine adjust the timing over the next 100 miles accross the timing range.

You may have an exhaust leak but at most a minor one or you would notice it even from under the motor at the heads. One thing I do with headers since they rarely just pop right up there is after the initial install and torquing I run it for a couple minutes to let the metals shift their relationship to each other a little bit. Then I wait 5 minutes from there and go back and loosen the nuts just a turn or two (not to the point of being lose or seperating the parts) and then retorque them again - never had a head-header leak this way. Just a thought.

Definitely wrap them. Exhaust velocity in the header benefits greatly from heat retention which is why we started coating our headers inside and out before we even receive them - the benefits in exhaust velocity and underhood temps were too great not to make it available to our customers directly.

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Old 12-08-2003, 03:28 PM   #31
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I have the coated GP moto header on my car and we tuned it with the GP MOTO unichip. I got 260 lb feet of torque and 220 WHP on the stock turbo. My header was a prototype from the first batch and needs to be welded up. I suggest that you weld yours up too Jeff. Testing has seen 15-20 HP increase after welding the earlier headers. All the new headers are now welded from the factory. The car feels awesome and most people think I have upgraded turbos when we go for a ride

Ashley
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Old 12-08-2003, 04:41 PM   #32
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Here's to hoping that my tight slip joints don't leak on my GP Moto. I fitted it together again last night, and the front cross bar joints are so tight I cannot get it apart without serious effort (using a foot).

Diversion did reset his ECU I think, not positive though.
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Old 12-08-2003, 05:25 PM   #33
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hmm, so the slip joints aren't really needed? I wonder about pulling mine and zapping them shut. More info please.
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Old 12-08-2003, 06:14 PM   #34
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Quote:
Originally posted by WRXMikeH
Here's to hoping that my tight slip joints don't leak on my GP Moto. I fitted it together again last night, and the front cross bar joints are so tight I cannot get it apart without serious effort (using a foot).

Diversion did reset his ECU I think, not positive though.
Yours sound fine mike



ECS- I'm not sure what zapping a GT spec header will cause. The GP MOTO header has enough tubing to expand safely when heated, which is why they are welded now from GP MOTO. I'm not sure if a similar situation would cause a GT spec to crack. On the other hand, look at the borla, it is all one piece. I believe the DC sports one is too.

Ashley
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Old 12-08-2003, 07:39 PM   #35
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I'll reset it once again.. Don't think it's going to change anything.

Jay
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Old 12-08-2003, 10:10 PM   #36
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Well you know its just cuz 02's and 04's suck

03's are da best!!!

http://www.jet-hot.com/

Nuff said'
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Old 12-08-2003, 10:28 PM   #37
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Here's another bad thing i've gotten on the GTSpec..

This is from Deadbolt:

"Lost power and spoolup. I was running a Monster TD04 that was spooling 17PSI by 2750 RPM's and had put down 222WHP. I put the GTSpec headers on and I was only able to hit full spool by about 3400 RPM and only pulled a 217 WHP. My peak torque was pushed up to 4100 RPM from 2900 also. I took em off and am now running a highly ported stock manifold ceramic coated and am getting 18 PSI from my VF22 at 4100 RPM (I have seen 17.5 as early as 3600 RPM but that might have been a fluke.) "

Now Deadbolt is running a SSAutoChrome/Stone Racing headers (found on Ebay for $250 to $300) and actually GAINED horsepower over the GTSpec header.

Jay
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Old 12-08-2003, 10:33 PM   #38
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Quote:
Originally posted by 0260B4U
Well you know its just cuz 02's and 04's suck

03's are da best!!!

http://www.jet-hot.com/

Nuff said'
Well I have heard the 03 ECUs run leaner than the 02/04 which gives a little extra oomph...

Jay
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Old 12-09-2003, 03:30 AM   #39
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GT Spec GEN II headers
1) Well, it's been like one week since these headers have been on one of the two WRXs. The gain is not noticable and it seems as if I loss power. The car doesn't pull as hard and its not as loud. I was expecting power gains as they are advertised at 20whp and 20lbs-ft, etc. I really thinking about pulling the headers off and setting the stock manifold on and selling them.

2) On the other WRX, I have a set of Helix headers, and I definitely noticed a gain and a noise difference. I could hear the spool more and now my car feels as strong as it was on 17psi, and it's ONLY on 14.2 psi right now!! In car #2 with the Helix, I haven't been able to break in the Exedy Hyper single plate clutch yet so I haven't done a WOT run yet, but even without that, the power difference is noticable.

Which brings me back to my concern over the GT Spec headers, I'm wondering why it's not performing, and the quality on this thing is excellent, better than the Helix. The performance just isn't there, or it isn't what I was expecting. With this GT Spec, it uses a 3-bolt flange for the Gt Spec uppipe that is REQUIRED for the header use as any other aftermarket 2-bolt flange type will not fit. The uppipe is huge, and also great quality.

Is there anything wrong with these headers? Is anyone else experiencing this? Any gains that I'm missing?

I haven't reset the ECU as of yet, but I will when I get car #1 from home.

From this I would say the Helix is a better choice, but does it really outperform the GT Spec?
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Old 12-09-2003, 03:47 AM   #40
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I feel the same way you do.. the quality of the GTSpec header is superb.. but where's the performance? The only true gains i've seen from the GTSpec header was on a car equipped with a PE1820 at high boost levels.. which says to me, that the runners on the header are MUCH too large for the stock turbo.. so gains won't be had until you have a turbo pushing enough CFM to make positive use of this header.

Me and a friend compared the pipe diameters between the GTSpec and the GPMoto.. GPMoto's are slightly smaller..

Jay
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Old 12-09-2003, 03:59 AM   #41
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h00ray for buttdynos!!
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Old 12-09-2003, 04:04 AM   #42
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Quote:
Originally posted by mlambert
h00ray for buttdynos!!
Heh, hence why I raced a car that's been 95% even with me in the hundred races i've had against this person. Now things turned crazy unexpected.

Jay
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Old 12-09-2003, 04:06 AM   #43
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Quote:
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h00ray for buttdynos!!


-buttdyno
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Old 12-09-2003, 05:00 AM   #44
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nice

on topic, I think the huge up pipe causes it to loose velocity and cause turbulance at the turbo'e entrance. I know they call it a velocity pipe, but in realitly it just creates large pocket for the air to slow down in, twice! I have a different brand of header on my car that also had a "velocity pipe". I thought the up pipe was leaking, so I swapped it with a PDE flex pipe. The car is much quicker now! I can also hear the turbo spool up more now.
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Old 12-09-2003, 07:24 AM   #45
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Butt dyno as you call it, for now, as I will have both cars dyno tuned in the near future. I'm trying to set up an appointment now.
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Old 12-09-2003, 07:25 AM   #46
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If that's true with the PE1820, then I'm going to have switch the headers on both cars, and put the GT SPec with the PE1820 and the Helix with the VF22.

Hopefully, this solves everything
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Old 12-09-2003, 08:59 AM   #47
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Without dyno runs before and after the headers and not having them wrapped or coated, I call ignorance on your claims. No matter how many times you and Billy-Bob have run together (Sanctioned Track) it just doesn't hold water. You can't rate a product by slapping it on (possibly wrong), and go race your friend.

BTW: If you were on a sanctioned track why does it matter if noone was closer than 5 miles?
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Old 12-09-2003, 02:47 PM   #48
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Nobody said it was a scientific study. There are too many variables to reach a good conclusion...this post was made simply to say the GT Spec headers did not perform as expected. My feelings are, if you can't install a header from a company AS IS (no coating, wrapping) and not get good gains, then the headers are not right for your application. Let's wait for downshift1's header comparison to see some numbers.

The sanctioned track/5 mile thing was a joke. I call ignorance on your question.
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Old 12-09-2003, 03:37 PM   #49
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Oh haha, I get it, ha, haha
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Old 12-09-2003, 03:37 PM   #50
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Exactly, if I can't bolt up these headers and get results, they have been advertised WRONGLY. GTSpec doesn't say you HAVE to wrap/coat them to get a gain. I got NEGATIVE gains. A dyno would be a waste of money proving me right.. proving I lost power. Something I *already* know.

Jay
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