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Old 03-10-2004, 07:06 PM   #1
VR62STI
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Default header=cel

I just installed a Gruppe-S header on a bone stock STI. The header is very high quality, at a great price, and made quite a big difference in midrange. 5 minutes of running and my Cruise light started blinking, but no cel. This went on for several days until finally the cel came on and stayed on. My code reader doesn't seem to read the STI, so I still don't know the #, but does anyone have any ideas? A lot of people have talked about the "cruise sensativity" but with no resolve. I really doubt the O2 went bad suddenly, and I'd like to know what function that first sensor has - does it control fuel mixture? The fact that my $30k car already has problems is starting to frusterate me (yes, I know I effed with it).
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Old 03-10-2004, 07:12 PM   #2
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What code reader are you useing? This is what happens when people just buy parts with out thinking and doing the research first. There is no proof that headers will even give you any gain. They will move the power band up the range, and they may slow the turbo spoll because they dont retain heat as well as the stocker.
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Old 03-10-2004, 07:33 PM   #3
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I guess 30 ft lbs more isn't a gain on a stock STI??

gt spec tested by dan @ godspeed.

I saw the dyno plots
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Old 03-10-2004, 07:44 PM   #4
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Quote:
Originally posted by totoherbs
What code reader are you useing? This is what happens when people just buy parts with out thinking and doing the research first. There is no proof that headers will even give you any gain. They will move the power band up the range, and they may slow the turbo spoll because they dont retain heat as well as the stocker.
You really solved his problem.
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Old 03-10-2004, 07:46 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally posted by b0rf
You really solved his problem.


His solution is easy take them off or get a ECU of some kind...

The whole logic behind "tuning" thies days is flawed a well balanced and thought out system is a better way to go. And will make you happyer in the long run...
Buying parts with out thinking and slaping them on becuase you saw or heard that it may see gains is not a good way to do things.


Quote:
Originally posted by carguy19
I guess 30 ft lbs more isn't a gain on a stock STI??

gt spec tested by dan @ godspeed.

I saw the dyno plots
link?
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Old 03-10-2004, 08:25 PM   #6
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gotta find it, if you call dan he'll send you the b4 and after
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Old 03-10-2004, 09:47 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally posted by b0rf
You really solved his problem.
That was peevish wasn't it?


I also have the Gruppe s header and I like it a lot. I have never read of a header causing a CEL. Could you have popped a vacum line? Perhaps the header gasket is not sealed properly? I am trying to give POSITIVE input to your situation.

Good luck and let us know what's up.
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Old 03-10-2004, 09:49 PM   #8
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Are we supposed to help you and figure out what CEL you threw? We can only help you out if you "tell" us what CEL code you are getting. Did you reset the ECU after installing? Did you check for leaks? Did you remember to plug the front O2 sensor back in?
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Old 03-10-2004, 09:50 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally posted by totoherbs
link?
"**Dyno graphs shows testing with 04 WRX catted downpipe, uppipe, exhaust, versus addition of manifold only."

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Old 03-10-2004, 10:09 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally posted by Hummer
"**Dyno graphs shows testing with 04 WRX catted downpipe, uppipe, exhaust, versus addition of manifold only."

Cool... thanks.

So that shows a gain of 8 to 9 lbs of tq( the veriation between one dyno run and another is around 3-5%, give or take; cool down time, fluid temps and so on... ) and almost no hp... for $400 bucks, plus install, heat wrap and coatings. Without the heat wrap and coatings every time your at a stop light and the headers cool, stainless steel doesnt retain the heat as well as iron, you will see a good power loss.

Last edited by totoherbs; 03-11-2004 at 07:39 AM.
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Old 03-10-2004, 10:13 PM   #11
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Headers are not in aluminium, stainless steel or normal steel...
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Old 03-10-2004, 10:22 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally posted by Ziglabeu
Headers are not in aluminium, stainless steel or normal steel...
Your right, my bad...

Last edited by totoherbs; 03-10-2004 at 10:35 PM.
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Old 03-11-2004, 02:03 AM   #13
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"This is what happens when people just buy parts with out thinking and doing the research first. There is no proof that headers will even give you any gain."

This is mighty presumptuous of you. Who says I didn't do research? I found 3 recent dynos of bone stock STIs making between 30 and 40 ft-lbs low down with a header. I know a little about header design, and I know I don't like what Subaru made, and really do like the Gruppe-S design. My last car held a record for highest horse in it's class, due to lots of weird tricks and lots of trial and error on the dyno. I've chopped up manifolds, and experimented extensively with thermal rejection coatings. You, on the other hand, seem to just talk; if you have no experience with headers - kindly shut the pie hole, and stop trying to fool people into thinking you're an expert.

For the rest of you - thanks. There are no stupid mistakes, no leaks, the O2 is back in, the header seems to work really well. I am still trying to get the code read, but I suspect it will say #1 O2 slow read (just a hunch). I'll let you all know what I find.
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Old 03-11-2004, 02:07 AM   #14
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First it was just directed at you... its what I see overall from people here. "He made power with that so it must be worth it" There is just too much of that around here.



What dyno charts are you talking about...? From all the time ive spent here ive seen none; where the old difference from one run to another was the change in headers.

Last edited by totoherbs; 03-11-2004 at 07:02 AM.
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Old 03-11-2004, 06:58 AM   #15
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p1153- O2 sensor circuit range/performance (high) (bank 1 sensor 1)

this is what youll get, i bet. its what i get with my gruppe-s header. unless you drive the car hard without cruising much for 3 drives, the cel will stay on. im getting a gt spec 2 header soon, and i hope that it doesnt throw the same cel.

my gruppe-s header was jethot 2000 coated and wrapped, so i noticed almost no difference in lag. the power it made was nice, but i think the ecu eventually learned around it. (or i got used to the new power). so yeah, if you find out what is really the cause, i would love to hear it, since i have been driving with the cel for about 4 or 5 months now...it really sucks because i had to take a road trip this weekend with no cruise control
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Old 03-11-2004, 07:11 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally posted by totoherbs
Cool... thanks.

So that shows a gain of 8 to 9hp( the veriation between one dyno run and another is around 3-5%, give or take; cool down time, fluid temps and so on... ) and almost no tq... for $400 bucks, plus install, heat wrap and coatings. Without the heat wrap and coatings every time your at a stop light and the headers cool, stainless steel doesnt retain the heat as well as iron, you will see a good power loss.
totoherbs is silly
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Old 03-11-2004, 07:15 AM   #17
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Quote:
Originally posted by googe
totoherbs is silly
I try, realy...

Its not like anything I said isnt true and cant be backed up.
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Old 03-11-2004, 07:18 AM   #18
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well how does that show a gain of no tq?
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Old 03-11-2004, 07:25 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally posted by googe
well how does that show a gain of no tq?
Im sorry that was a screw up... should be almost no hp. Ive fixed it... so its 2 or 3 hp and 10 some odd lbs of tq.

I would like to know how they came up with thoes numbers... Are they 'best of' runs? Was the same car used? How many runs inbeetween? Was a cool down given inbetween runs? The problem is dynos are not braggin tools they are tuneing tools...

http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/power3.htm

http://www.sdsefi.com/techdyno.htm


Im sorry but I just dont take numbers from a manufacturer as solid figures.

Last edited by totoherbs; 03-11-2004 at 07:54 AM.
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Old 03-11-2004, 08:18 AM   #20
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totoherbs,

One day I will convert you over to the dark side of headers!

I know there are dyno losses, heat cycling losses, tire pressure differentiations, barometric variables, and other contributing factors towards HP/TQ differentiations. I would never say that XXX manufacturer adds +XXHP/TQ to your car as we all know that the numbers never add up. There isn't a lot of dyno data on headers, mainly because dyno time is pricey and no one wants to go through the trouble of a before/after comparison.

That being said, I agree that the data is limited. I took a chance and got a good deal on my Borla header. I bolted it on and I know with every fiber of my being that there is a big difference in the top end. I might have sacrificed some on the low end, but I couldn't feel that difference. I do hope that after the header test results are announced that you change your profile to:

Location:
L.P.C. (im pro-headers)

With much respect to your opinion, our "header battle" continues...

Ron

P.S. For the record, unless my blurry work moniter deceives me the TQ gain on those headers is 29.6! Maybe that is why my butt dyno impression of my Borla header gives me the impression of a bigger turbo?
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Old 03-11-2004, 08:35 AM   #21
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Ya, I will glady change it to "headers; ill take my crow raw" or "headers all that and a bag of chips" but that will have to wait.


I do agree they will give you gains up top. Just not cost effective for the avarage person. Like soneone who didnt get a good deal, had them wraped/coated and installed. ie: $700 for little gain.


The other half of me doesnt so much not belive in headers but is just playing devils advacate. Someone has to be on this side of the topic...
Yes that chart shows 29lb gain... but with out knowing how they came about thoes numbers I dont put much stock in them; whos just pimping there own numbers. I can pull dyno runs and play with things till I get the number I want too doesnt mean others will see said gains.

Ron T.
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Old 03-11-2004, 08:41 AM   #22
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Then the line in the battle of the Rons is drawn.
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Old 03-11-2004, 11:56 AM   #23
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Quote:
Originally posted by totoherbs
Im sorry that was a screw up... should be almost no hp. Ive fixed it... so its 2 or 3 hp and 10 some odd lbs of tq.
The dyno shows +29 torque on a wrx.
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Old 03-11-2004, 12:43 PM   #24
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Quote:
Originally posted by totoherbs
Cool... thanks.

So that shows a gain of 8 to 9 lbs of tq( the veriation between one dyno run and another is around 3-5%, give or take; cool down time, fluid temps and so on... ) and almost no hp... for $400 bucks, plus install, heat wrap and coatings. Without the heat wrap and coatings every time your at a stop light and the headers cool, stainless steel doesnt retain the heat as well as iron, you will see a good power loss.
what are you talking about! Don't you see there is almost around 30f lbs in torque increase. Also those are peak numbers. Dyno's have shown at certain points where the headers on our cars have given 25-30 percent more then peak gain at some points throughout the powerband. I spoke to about 3 or 4 people who have headers on their Sti and they definately said the car rips much harder and are very happy. Stop being so negative toward his problem about doing research and buying because maybe he did not install it and the shop did not torque the manifold bolts right and caused a leak or popped off some vacuum line by accident when they were working on it. how do you know he did not do any research?
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Old 03-11-2004, 04:49 PM   #25
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hello all-

Yes, I installed it, and everything is done right. The codes are P0171 (bank 1 too lean) and the infamous P1153. For some reason Gruppe-S hasn't seen this before. It's nice to know I'm not alone. I went through this same header debate on my GTI. There was a big urban legend that the "VR6 breaths good already". I dynoed the car, and while it was still strapped in had the headers installed and dynoed again. Made 10hp/10ft-lbs, very clearly a different curve, very clearly pulled harder. Some people still said it was bogus. Fine. I'm not going to waste time (and $) on the dyno with the STI, until I'm Vishnuing; my butt says it's a HUGE increase in power, and that's good enough for me.
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