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Old 02-26-2004, 02:10 PM   #1
humenikp
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Post Project: E85 Retrofit [Calling All Techs]

Hello All,

A project I have been considering for some time now is preparing a car (Let's use the 2004 STi for this project, that's the only shop manual I have ) to run on E85 Fuel. E85 is comprised of 85% ethanol and just 15% petroleum.

I have plans for a still to produce 180 proof Ethanol (105 Octane), but even so I have a few sources where I can purchase E85 until the still is up and running. Not only that, the car would still be capable of running on standard gasoline.

I searched NASIOC and only found:
http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...hlight=ethanol

The STi shop manual gives a good deal of information about the fuel system, but I'd appreciate any Tech(s) knowledge about the materials used (hoses, fuel tank, et cetera). Ethanol will be caustic to some material, so those components will need to be replaced.

I'm currently in the process of building a check-list, so anything that should be added or removed, feel free to note.

So Far:

Fuel System
---------------
- New Fuel Lines (all steel?)
- Fuel Pump (Shop Manual says max output is 98.2psi) will this be enough for sustained operation?
- Fuel Injectors (enough flow rate & will Ethanol be ionized enough?) Shop manual states current injector location and manifold shape are specifically designed to ionize gasoline fuel properly.
- Fuel Filter (glass required)
- Pre-Pump Fuel Filter (included stock, was Subaru planning for higher Ethanol mixes?)

A/F System
--------------
- Will downstream O2 sensor pick up difference in O2 and add more fuel or will stand-alone system be required?
- Will AVCS have enough advance for E85 or will manual timing adjustments be necessary in conjunction with AVCS?

Engine
---------
- How much expansion do piston rings rely on? E85 will run at lower temps. Will excessive blow-by occur?


Advantages
---------------
-Ethanol contains Oxygen and burns more efficiently
-Ethanol acts as a cleaning agent (does not require MTBE)
-With rising gasoline prices, Ethanol may become a cost effective solution (especially if you have your own still
-Cleaner burn means better emmissions (can we run without cats and still pass? it's worth a look)
-Tax Breaks (not applicable for me really, but it might be for some of you).
-Top Fuel Dragsters use it
-http://www.e85fuel.com/news/121701fyi.htm (check out the cornvette)


Summary:
This will be merely a proof-of concept project. If done properly, retrofitting automobiles will prove to be an alternative to buying an FFV car.

Sorry for the scattered nature of the project definition, I'm at work and just trying to get a start on this project. I'll have a more definitive spec later this evening hopefully when I get some time to put it all together with my research (also at home). Consider this a Beta Version of a Project Spec

The conversion of the fuel lines and filters is pretty straight forward.

My concern is with A/F and mechanical aspects such as the pump and rings.

Any ideas especially from the Techs and mechanics (and Ethanol experts) are definitely welcome.
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Old 02-26-2004, 04:42 PM   #2
Jaxx
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#1 concern not addressed --->ECU

espically with a very advanced ECU like the STI
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Old 02-26-2004, 08:44 PM   #3
yamarocket630
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E85.... hmmmm I wish the gov't would be more friendly to it, but they seem to want us to drive around in giant fuel/air bombs (hydrogen fuel cells)

Several disadvantages:
1 Ethanol is expensive to produce in small quanities, unless you're a farmer and have access to unlimited grain supplies.

2 A standard O2 sensor can tell tell the difference between regular hydrocarbon fuel and ethanol, but it requires some very complex calibrations and active exhaust sampling... BTW, that's the way Chrysler has been doing it for a few years on their 3.3 and 3.8l minivans, which are almost all E85 compatible.

3 Ethanol does not have anywhere near the specific energy output of hydrocarbon fuel, I can't remeber the ratio, but it's like 2/3 the potential energy... makes for a nice combination of poor fuel economy AND loss of power.

4 Ethanol attacks and corrodes mild steel, some plastics, and natural rubber. All fuel system components have to be made of stainless steel, synthetic rubbers, or special plastics $$$ it also corrodes the metals that are normally associated with fuel pump brushes and commutators, a specially designed (more $$$) pump is called for.

Engine mechanicals on the other hand, should be no concern at all. The mechanical seals of the engine (valves, rings etc) rely more on gas velocity and the short duration of the actual combustion event to seal than heat. Although again, mild steel parts should be avoided, most modern engine designed since the demise of leaded fuels are perfectly compatible.
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Old 02-27-2004, 01:51 PM   #4
humenikp
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Still working on the spec.

I'm hoping the ECU's complex nature will work for the project because of its ability to process information faster. Thanks for pointing that out. I'm starting this project out with the simplest tasks first (conceptually). Mechanical (nut and bolts) is easy compared to taking readings from the various sensors.

Ethanol is expensive to produce, but if gasoline prices keep rising, it may be cheaper to buy the sugar for the still than the fossil fuel for the car. We're obviously not there yet, but we'll see this summer how high pump prices rise. Not to mention ethanol can be made in various ways. The still can be engineered to product no less than 180 proof and re-circulate any vapor not meeting that criteria.

Ethanol does have roughly 2/3 the potential energy of hydrocarbon fuel. It also has a higher octane rating, which allows for much higher compression. It may only have 2/3 the potential energy, but the energy harnessed from Ethanol can be used in a more efficient manner to power the car, which is what makes it a viable option (that and I won’t be held hostage by Sunoco or Aamaco).

The price is the biggest setback at this point, Lord knows I've dropped enough coin in the STi so as it is. That's why I'm in the process of compiling a checklist and resource list, the price alone may put the brakes on this whole thing. If I can just get fuel line parts cheap and fabricate (not hack) a fuel system capable of E85, I’ll be fine with that.

yamarocket630 do you know specifically what parts will need to be replaced? I haven't taken the fuel pump out of the vehicle yet.

Rubber hoses definitely need to go (all of them in the fuel system).

I believe after 96, manufactures were making cars E10 compliant. There's got to be some parts that are reusable.

Thanks for the feedback. You probably won’t hear more from me on this topic until I’m satisfied with the spec. By all means, keep the info coming!

Thanks again!
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Old 02-27-2004, 04:05 PM   #5
anders8
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Quote:
if gasoline prices keep rising, it may be cheaper to buy the sugar for the still than the fossil fuel for the car.
Ok fine. Now, what sort of fuel are you going to use to boil it down to 180 proof? I'm guessing fossil fuel???

Run through that math and I'm pretty sure that you'll see it takes more energy to produce the ethanol than the ethanol contains.

We (as a country) make ethanol because it's good for the people growing corn, not because the process is, overall, energy efficient.

Anders
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Old 02-27-2004, 06:45 PM   #6
granteeton
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my ? is, why start with and sti. if your screw up, your just gonna distroy your 30K car. i'd start with a cheaper car first, one that wouldn't matter if you blew it up.
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Old 02-27-2004, 07:28 PM   #7
humenikp
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I'm not too concerned about blowing up the engine. FFV vehicles don't have any special internals, it's the fuel system and additional sensors which pick-up the fuel type and adjust the amount of fuel and timing.

I'm starting with the STi because if the ECU becomes a limiting factor, I'll still have a solid fuel system, which will help with performance modifications on standard fuel (upgraded fuel pump etc). Search NASIOC for Alcohol Injection, you’ll find that it is also a viable option for performance. All I’m trying to do is increase the amount of ethanol.

Solar power is the primary option for the still's power supply, but the still is not really the topic. This is NASIOC, so modifications to the car are really what this project is about. Yes, ethanol does take a substantial amount of energy to produce, but it is still a relatively new energy source. It takes energy to product fossil fuels, but the process has been refined because of the amount of resources pumped into it. I’d say the process to produce ethanol is pretty efficient considering the lack of resources involved. If our country put more resources into the production of ethanol, production would become more efficient. This thread has now become off-topic. I have no problems debating politics and world events, but I prefer to do so over a few cold Coronas.

I can see that this isn't really the place to start for technical data collection. 50% of the replies are just more questions. Jaxx, yamarocket630 thanks.

Moderators, can you kill this thread for me please?

Off to Chrysler to see how exactly they did it.
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Old 02-28-2004, 06:10 PM   #8
Jaxx
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befor you kill it ...
i think you actaully have a very valid idea.. except for the 04 STI part .. for the moment

a 02-04 wrx on the other hand would be a great starting point ..

iirc stoiametric (sp) for Ethanol is differnt than gas... so the A/F targets will be all wrong

if you had access tuner form cobb (avaiable reasonably soon) you could set the desired target A/F and still maintain the factory ecu
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Old 04-21-2005, 12:47 AM   #9
HeMan1320
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sounds as simple as bulk up the fuel system and reflash for A/F.
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Old 05-12-2005, 10:26 PM   #10
hotrod
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Although this is an old thread, most of the questions are answered in current threads like :

http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/show...&highlight=E85

Larry
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