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05-31-2009, 09:06 AM | #26 | |
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13 whp at redline is nothing to sneeze at. Also, if you really look at the data you'll notice that the boost is actually lower with the Cosi manifold and it was also richer and still making more power. the manifold also "unoptimized" your setup. Before you were peaking at 6200rpm which allowed you to stay in the meat of the powerband by shifting at redline.....where as now you are leaving power on the table unless you're gonna rev to 8000rpm. I'd really like to see how far that slope carries out. almost looks like the hp peak would be 7000-7200 rpm now. Seems like this is a mod where you're gonna need a huge turbo that causes the intake manifold to become the restriction, but once you get rid of that restriction you're gonna need a valvetrain to take advantage of your newfound powerband.
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05-31-2009, 12:14 PM | #27 | |
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Indeed what Ed said, and you as well is very true.. this is an unoptimized setup for this manifold. Part of this test was to see how well it worked at 'lower' power levels.. if you call 390-400whp low. Sure enough at a bit more boost the upper end came alive more. I am sure that with an agressive race fuel tune more upper end power, especially near 7k, can be had. For me it was instructive to first see a bit of the lower limits of where this part might come into play. Our next step (this week) is to get a solid tune on Tim's STI (35R, 8k RPM), then swap in a Cosworth manifold. I suspect we can make some good gains. Jeff |
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05-31-2009, 01:24 PM | #28 |
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good test. while it seems like it will definitely be good for higher hp cars, thanks to your testing, i wouldnt spend the money for a stock internal 2 liter.
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05-31-2009, 03:03 PM | #29 | |
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for anyone that sees this comparo the "untuned-bolt-on-ability-to-power-ratio" is not good....and also cost/power. this is gonna be a mod like cams/valvetrain that only people with big setups get. even though i was thinking about it just cause its pretty and i'd like to clean up my engine bay. |
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05-31-2009, 03:30 PM | #30 |
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I bet it would go very nicely with that GT42
At least now I can see that I don't have a performance based need for the manifold I WANT. All things in good time I guess. Thanks Jeff. If you guys are going to run Tims STi with the Cosworth sometime in the very near future I wouldn't mind coming out for that. Travis |
05-31-2009, 03:41 PM | #31 |
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Its hard to reach any conclusions regarding the testing of VE enhacing parts without knowing that the set up you are working with is optimzed and has no existing weak links or bottle necks. End users must remember always that there are only 5 ways to make power
1 - Displacement 2 - RPM 3 - Volumetric Efficency - (filling the clyinder more completely with a charge) 4 - Density (cooling and increasing pressure) 5 - Chemcial - e.g. nos, etc. Clearly all these kind of modifications like intake manifolds, TGV deletes, exhuast , etc etc etc are only effective in enhacing VE by allowing the intake charge a easier flow into the engine and by allowing the exhuast gases less back pressure to evacuate the cylinder. In most cases we are working well below 100% VE on a Subaru engine which yields an effective displacement well below the 2.0 or 2.5 L we have to work with. Any VE enhancement will only achive its full effect if the rest of the intake and exhuast system is fully optimized. If the rest of your system is not breathing perefctly, then you won't realize the full VE gain of an intake manifold. In simple laymans terms its like having a series of bottle necks or restrictions and eliminating one of the kinks in your flow. It still has the other kinks left holding you back. Last week, I installed a Cosworth Intake on a 06 STI with a Dominator 2.5. After a short period of testing and trying to make additional power, the turbo over spun and blew out a seal. Although we did not realize ANY gains from the Cosworth intake on that turbo, it was clear that the turbo was the limiting factor and could not flow much beyond 400 whp no matter what intake manifold was on the car. All I can say with 100% certainty is that the Cosworth Intake flows significantly more air than the stock one and it will pick up power on any car which is exceeding the air flow capacity of the stock intake manifold. I made over 80 whp. Clearly, a intake maniold is not going to do much on say a Stage II car as the air flow is not impeeded by the stock manifold. As you work towards a more optimal VE configuration with better head design, cams, exhuast, fmic, etc etc the intake manfold upgrade will start to yield more and more of a gain or increase. Only on a car with everything else optimzed will you see maximum gains on the change of an intake manifold. Al Last edited by alfriedesq; 05-31-2009 at 03:54 PM. |
05-31-2009, 03:48 PM | #32 | |
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Al I have a Forster N/A in for a 60k service and noticed immediately that the factory intake manifold looks like it MAY have been copied by Cosworth to some extent. -George Kakaletris |
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05-31-2009, 04:26 PM | #33 |
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So it seems that most folks who port their stock manifolds are actually hurting their performance (most run < 400 whp setups anyway).
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05-31-2009, 06:49 PM | #34 |
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nevermind... it was already mentioned
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05-31-2009, 08:31 PM | #35 | |
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An engineer can work with the laws of physics and caculate the effect of various bends, changes in pipe diameter and other restrictions on the flow rate and how much heat is added in the process. From a lay person's (like myself) perspective, the whole concept can be simplified by thinking of a turbo charged motor as an air pump. Everything you can do to aide the free flow of air into and out of the pump will allow it to process more air. The more air you can flow the more fuel you can burn and the more energy that can be yielded from the combustion process. Al |
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05-31-2009, 08:59 PM | #36 | |
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Jeff, I thank you again for sharing these results with the community! Just curious, what are the ID's and approximate runner lengths on this bad boy...I wanna plug it in to my helmholtz sheet and see what rpm ranges this can really come to life at. -Micah 3MI Racing LLC |
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05-31-2009, 09:07 PM | #37 |
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so what will cause more of a bottleneck first, the stock cams or the intake manifold. i'll be running a gt35r kit on stock heads and cams with a built bottom end. i wanted to know if i will benefit from getting the cosi manifold while using the stock cams with maybe reworked heads. would it be worth it?
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05-31-2009, 10:15 PM | #38 | |
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06-01-2009, 10:34 AM | #39 | |
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The Cosworth mani changes all of the variables |
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06-01-2009, 04:17 PM | #40 |
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Great write up, more or less what I have been looking for, your numbers basically confirmed what I suspected.
FYI, I am in the process of installing a new sleeved, ported, cam'd motor with an UR GT40R twin scroll kit and felt the stock intake may now be the 'bottle neck'. The current build budget was 'blown out the window' long ago, so now I plan to install the new motor/turbo, using the stock intake manifold for break in and initial first tune(s). When I save up a few extra $$, after seeing your results, I now plan to purchase the Cosy intake and retune. I will have good information of what the new setup will produce, and when the Cosy intake is installed, my tuner, or I will, post up our results as well. Thanks for the info. again. |
06-01-2009, 11:21 PM | #41 | |
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06-02-2009, 02:55 AM | #42 |
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Nice test Jeff. I've got an 08 STI at the shop that I'll be finishing this week with Cossie heads/cams, Cossie manifold and a .82 GT3076R. I hope to see some larger gains with this combo than you saw. IIRC, your car is running the Cobb SD patch. Wouldn't you expect to see the AFR's lean out a bit if VE was improved by the manifold? Afterall, higher VE would translate to increased airflow for a given boost level. That would lead to an SD fueling car running leaner.
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06-02-2009, 10:11 AM | #43 |
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06-02-2009, 11:01 AM | #44 |
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i hate to ask... did you do the manifold test on a stock car with a proper tune to see what just the manifold would yield?
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06-02-2009, 11:19 AM | #45 | ||
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Jeff |
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06-02-2009, 11:30 AM | #46 |
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Did you guys leak test each install before testing to ensure no boost leaks?
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06-02-2009, 12:21 PM | #47 |
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No, but I would welcome you to give that test a try. I would be surprised to see any real gains, but then again I could be wrong!
Jeff[/quote] very cool.. stock manifold with tune Vs cosoworth manifold with tune. want to see the numbers... |
06-02-2009, 12:22 PM | #48 | |
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Jeff |
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06-03-2009, 03:04 AM | #49 | |
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06-03-2009, 08:10 AM | #50 |
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Please, Please Spoonagle
You need to put together a GT35R intake manifold comparison using the STI, Cosworth, LGT, 2.5i, TGV-less Spec C, and Magnus manifolds. You guys are the only ones capable of doing an unbiased and informative comparo. I suspect that there could be stock IM that are capable of gains that near the more $$ aftermarket options (LGT or 2.5i) for most HP levels below 550whp. |
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