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11-13-2010, 01:34 AM | #51 | |
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It could be that the header gained no power other than what you'd gain by tweaking the tune and using the original header. I am not claiming that this is the case - in fact I really like the design of this header - I am just saying that this experiment doesn't provide evidence that the header enabled the car to make more more power than simply retuning. And I'm still really confused about why changing a header would cause the car to run leaner in the first place anyway. Like I said earlier, if there's more air going through the motor, there's more air going past the MAF sensor, so the ECU would be adding more fuel accordingly. It looks like something else changed, not just the header.
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11-13-2010, 01:49 AM | #52 | |
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while im tired and cant say for sure, but the OEM header is very small, restrictive and a horrible design!! any aftermarket header including this one would forsure make the car run leaner. more air flow period. can the MAF make corrections to add more fuel? yes but not much when your talking that much more flow. when my Perrin comes this week maybe ill do a log before and after. |
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11-13-2010, 02:47 AM | #53 | |
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Actually, yes. Just yes. Note "yes, but..." Just yes. That is what MAF-based fueling is all about. The MAF sensor's job is to let the ECU know how much air is flowing into the motor. If it can't do that accurately, something's really f***ed up. The tune either needs a MAF scaling adjustment, or (and I really doubt this was the case here...) the MAF sensor needs to be put into a bigger housing. |
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11-13-2010, 04:13 AM | #54 |
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Nsfw is right. And the thing is that the tuners/shops doing this chit should know what parameters to look at. But they don't and I can't recall any header test done on here with mafv plots (except mine, which wasn't a header test).
Its really easy to tune a car conservatively on one part then add 1* of timing on another part and pick up 10whp. So pretty much all results are skeptical to me unless all the data is posted. |
11-13-2010, 10:21 AM | #55 |
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You guys are looking at what I've stated here with the 2 shops and thier comparisons so I restate the jist.
Epic Motorsport performed a before/after test with OTS (Off The Shelf) Cobb maps to see what would happen, since this if fairly common as not everyone gets tuned. When that was done they tuned the car and that plot is shown as well, it's the one that says Stage II tune vs. Epic Motorsport Custom Tune. EFI Logics tested the header (FULL REVIEW HERE) on a tuned car then swapped only the header and retuned. They included all kinds of graphs and data logs. IMO the data from both is relevant because it shows what happens if I have a COBB OTS stage II car and I put on the Killer B Header, as well as what you can expect if you have an already tuned car and and what to add our header. I'm working on collecting some more data, but it takes time. Unlike most manufacturers we're offering our data, collected by other shops, in a public forum. Good or bad it lets the consumer make a more informed decision. It's a better than the typical "expect midrange power increase" with our header. Right? Phatron, check out EFI's review/data, and by all means call the sources of these tests. Chris at EFI Logics and/or Robbie at Epic Motorsports can answer any questions you have. I'm a mechanical engineer not a tuner, so they can much better answer your questions and they have no vested interest in selling headers. |
11-13-2010, 11:57 AM | #56 |
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Like he said OTS map Chris pm me the customers name so I can pull up his logs please.
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11-13-2010, 12:51 PM | #57 | |
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11-13-2010, 02:09 PM | #58 |
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Hey Ron pm me your email or do you want me to send it to the one you have listed on facebook?
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11-13-2010, 02:44 PM | #59 | |
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The flip side of this, however, is VE. The MAF is not the end all, be all of fueling in the ECU. The ECU receives the MAF signal, uses the calibration table to convert it to an airflow value, and then uses this airflow value along with injector calibration values, trim tables, and VE calibration data to calculate the required injector on-time to achieve the desired a/f target. So if we are indeed keeping the fuel system and intake system consistent and leak free, and the tune is set up properly to handle the given range of airflows, a change in VE could still result in a shift in a/f. This is because VE defines how efficiently the engine uses the air that it consumes. If you increase VE and keep all other parameters consistent (including airflow), you will inherently see a shift in the a/f. The problem is that its very difficult to say which inconsistency caused the a/f swing without doing an extensive pressurized leak test of the exhaust and intake systems. Now, if indeed a VE change is the actual cause of the a/f swing, its even more necessary to fully tune both setups individually to present actual gains from the part since a change in VE can call for very different ignition advance, cam advance, and a/f profiles. -- Ed |
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11-13-2010, 02:45 PM | #60 | |
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11-13-2010, 03:02 PM | #61 | |
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The EFI test was tuned with 1 header vs. tuned with the other header and AFR is right in line in both cases. The Epic test shows a real world expectation from someone adding headers to an existing map, since they stated Cobb OTS stage 2 maps in both cases. Both have their place, as both are realistic expectations for what a customer would do. A customer will either add the header and re-tune or a customer will add a header and not retune. The useful information is that there is a gain in both cases, but there is some danger in adding the header and not retuning, since AFR seems to lean out as a result. This is all very good and useful information to have. Science is an interesting thing because one person's idea of what "holding everything else constant" means is different from another. For example, I don't think holding AFR constant is the correct way to do a "only one thing changes" comparison. It is possible for exhaust modifications to change EGTs at a given AFR, and would argue that if the header allows for cooler EGT at a given AFR, then EGT should be raised some by leaning AFR to create an "equal" margin situation. I think KillerB has gone to greater lengths than most manufacturers to quantify the benefits of his product. I think there is enough information available that an educated potential customer can see the tests are reasonably well done. Perhaps not perfect but there is enough information available to demonstrate there are genuine power gains to be had in the upper RPMs from the product. Last edited by Concillian; 11-13-2010 at 03:11 PM. |
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11-13-2010, 03:09 PM | #62 | |
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Now if it's some random no-name, well, all bets are off. |
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11-13-2010, 06:15 PM | #63 | |
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I have no issue waiting for your personal manifold for testing. I'd really like to see and compare runner lengths and diameters of the primaries, secondaries (where applicable) and then collectors and then see how they compare on the dyno. Noting that your manifold is the only 4-1 manifold of the group and is noted to be performing so well. |
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11-13-2010, 09:33 PM | #64 | ||
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11-13-2010, 09:45 PM | #65 |
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I took it as he was going to test 4-5 different headers, compare dimensions, and use the best one and make a rotated up pipe for it.......he wants to use a v-band connection so the flange would have to be hacked off all the headers with standard 2-3 bolt flanges.....
Last edited by Phatron; 11-13-2010 at 09:53 PM. |
11-13-2010, 10:32 PM | #66 | |
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No one is doubting the power listed on the dyno sheet. It's just a matter of simple causation. The dyno numbers are listing an outcome. Outcomes are great, but they never explain cause. Even if you were to do back to back testing against other headers, you would be only comparing outcomes but you wouldn;t be able to derive a cause without other data listed. It's like grades. If a student gets an A on the test in June but didn't in the previous month, you can say that the grades improved, but you can't say why. Also even if the principal or teacher were to tell me "The student improved because of x," as an educated person I wouldn't listen to what he/she said because I know that without recorded data sets, I'm trusting a person and not facts. But if I were uneducated, I would listen. On that same note, I would also agree that the student did better and feel happy for that student. |
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11-14-2010, 12:57 AM | #67 | |
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I'm actually thinkging about closing up the 3MI Racing LLC stuff all together. Really happy with Volvo and have been sending customers to Maxwell Power for a while, as far as builds go. So no worries here. I do plan to do my own manifold yes, but that will be a big boy, one off, kind of deal. Making prototype manifold is a pain in the butt If you don't want to be involved or don't want me involved, that's fine. I can make my own. I've designed and carried out numerous manifolds, both NA and turbo before...just figured this is easier and more worth my time. Besides, I like helping the community out and like seeing testing done well and properly. Last edited by Homemade WRX; 11-14-2010 at 01:16 AM. |
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11-14-2010, 01:25 AM | #68 | |
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11-14-2010, 10:44 AM | #69 |
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My leak theories are based on actually physically testing many cars for boost and exhaust leaks and finding major leaks in about 75% of tested cars and smaller leaks in about 90%. These are cars that have been built by "proffesional" shops as well as private parties. Because of this we always pressure test all cars that we work on extensively. No one believes their cars have leaks until they see it for themselves. I believe this sort of test should be common practice and especially so when doing testing and comparisons.
-- Ed |
11-14-2010, 11:55 AM | #70 | |
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11-14-2010, 12:53 PM | #71 | |
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Not only a rough time saver finish, but you'll notice the top right hole is ovalized. This is not something you'll NEVER see in a Killer B Header. Regarding our product, we are not a shop, we're a manufacturer. You'll never find one of our welders installing parts or wrenching on cars one day and welding another. They weld, and only weld. They are welders and know how to spread the heat around to minimize warping. ALL of our flanges are CNC machined on all surfaces to our own spec to provide a flat smooth surface finish. Even at this, a 1/2" flange can still move some, and that's why we grind our flange surface flat as one of the final processes our headers go through. The last variable we have no control over; who installs the product. Were new OEM gaskets used, torqued to proper spec, etc. That's up to you guys |
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11-14-2010, 03:52 PM | #72 | |
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But your explanation still doesn't make sense. If the MAF sensor tells the ECU that the engine is pulling in (for example) 100 grams per second, and if the ECU wants an 11:1 AFR, it's going to inject fuel at a rate of 9 grams per second. Why would changing VE (per your definition or everyone else's) change the AFR? It doesn't change change the ECU's target AFR, it doesn't change the air flow, it doesn't change the fuel flow.... so why would it change the air-fuel ratio? |
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11-14-2010, 10:58 PM | #73 |
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VE is simply equal to the volue of air that is drawn into the engine vs the actual volume of the engine...
VE = actual intake volume / displacement volume |
11-14-2010, 11:06 PM | #74 | |
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You seem to be thinking that the MAF sensor's job is to correct for changes in AFR, but that is not the case. The MAF sensor, in conjuction with MAF sensor scaling, tells the ECU how much air the engine is flowing. Period. The ECU uses that air flow rate, plus its knowledge of the injector characteristics (flow rate and latency) to open the injectors just long enough to inject the appropriate amount of fuel to get the desired AFR. If the engine starts flowing more air, and the MAF scaling is correct, the ECU still knows how much air the engine is flow, so it can still inject the correct amount of fuel to achieve the desired AFR. Make sense now? |
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11-14-2010, 11:16 PM | #75 | |
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