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08-23-2012, 09:45 AM | #251 | ||
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Poison, do you agree? Quote:
I agree that judo is a great base for MMA. But I don't get why you think it is more dominant than BJJ or any other art. Aside from Ronda, there really aren't any judo base fighters at a high level. It hasn't worked out for Parysian, Akiyama, Sokoudjou or Gamburyan. Probably the best one right now is Rick Hawn. He won Bellator's LW tournament and will fight for the title soon. Coincidentally, Rick teaches judo at my academy. Oh and I think Roger Gracie has a pretty good chance at being the next dominant BJJ based MMA fighter. p.s. Ronda's ground game is so good because she also trained/trains BJJ. IIRC she's been training under Gracie black belt Henry Akins for quite a while.
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Last edited by Thug; 08-23-2012 at 09:52 AM. |
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08-23-2012, 10:08 AM | #252 | ||
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Agree on most sport judo - but the reality is, if they're training judo as a martial art and not just as sport, their ground game is still there. As everyone is realizing, they may not be as varied as BJJ practitioners on the ground but can still dominate using a single refined move. Ronda has already stated she did significant grappling work to get to where she is - so rumor dispelled that even high level players are just throw focused. Id argue that Ronda is more dominant on the sub than the throws. A good wrestler would have a much better shot at standing upright with her. Quote:
Also, not judo specific but Olympian level specific - if you're so dominate at your trade, training to fight against you is almost impossible because you usually can't find a suitable training partner that will possess the same skill set. Most of the similarly skilled people stick together and aren't willing to break the inner circle - either. Judo against BJJ is also a best of both worlds sort of example, because you're still going to get the sub training in judo. So I think the highest level judo guys are going to spank the highest level BJJ guys that have some seriously lame take down techniques that an average wrestler can defeat. Personally, I think it's best to be developed in all martial arts. I prefer my wrestling base combined with my Muay Thai but just like I'd like the leg dexterity of a tae kwon do fighter, if also like the balance and throw of a judo player. Roger Gracie would get punked in the UFC. Lawal punked him with a crappy overhand right - and Lawals striking is still amateur. Again, most of the Gracie family has been eaten alive in MMA contests over at least the last 5+ years. Sorry to be the spoil sport. That dominance officially died when a juiced Royce Gracie got taken to town by Hughes. Conveniently he got pounded on the ground - which is yet another example that people can still work within very high level BJJ practitioners guards and be successful. You aren't seeing anyone that's able to stand with Rousey, yet, and not get thrown to their back. Give it time until a high level wrestler comes along. Won't be an exciting fight but they'll stand a much better chance of creating a stalemate while standing/clinched. And again, Rousey isn't dominate on the ground BC of BJJ. She's dominate on the ground because of judo. Everything she does is classic judo. You're only thinking of sport judo and taking for granted, half of the stuff you think of as BJJ is actually classic judo. All of her transitions and positions are judo not BJJ. If she was subbing people while working around their guard or working in her guard, I'd say you were on to something but nope, not the case. Last edited by totalburnout; 08-23-2012 at 10:18 AM. |
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08-23-2012, 10:23 AM | #253 |
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Why must BJJ practitioners be called "players"? Is it a translation thing (Portuguese to English)? Meaning, a Portuguese word means something completely different than it does directly translated to English. It seems to discredit their abilities. Maybe it's just me, but a "player" doesn't sound like someone that grapples.
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08-23-2012, 10:27 AM | #254 | |
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We agree on a lot but I still don't agree that high level(WC/Olympic) judokas can hang with WC/ADCC level grapplers on the ground. If they could, then we would have seen a judoka win a WC or ADCC event. To my knowledge, that has not happened. I can't even recall one coming close. |
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08-23-2012, 10:28 AM | #255 | |
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That's not specific to BJJ. I hear judokas called judo players all the time. No idea where it originates from though. |
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08-23-2012, 10:34 AM | #256 |
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08-23-2012, 10:48 AM | #257 | |
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I dont usually call BJJ guys players but always have for judo based on the books I've read some years ago. Thug, I'm not well enough versed in ADC to know if any judo players have ever really competed - to know how the % of judo players that have competed and done well would stack up. It's tough if only a dozen have ever tried and no one has succeeded. If thousands have tried and none have succeeded, that would seem to make sense. I have nothing against BJJ. I just don't think you get the most bang for your buck if you only train BJJ anymore. |
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08-23-2012, 11:08 AM | #258 | |
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No one here would or is arguing that last point. ADCC is considered the #1 tournament in the world for no-gi grappling. It only occurs every 2 years and it is a lot more free-form than the BJJ Worlds and Pan-Ams. They allow all just about any submission and even allow slamming, although slams are only allowed when escaping a submission. I just took a look through the results over the years. The only 1st place winners that listed Judo as their first discipline were Mark Robinson(who also did quite a bit of Greco-Roman) and Sanae Kikuta.Those were both back in 2001 and neither of them won the Absolute division, just their weight classes. |
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08-23-2012, 01:25 PM | #259 |
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***8206;@rkruck HOT RUMOR ABOUT UFC 151: Hendo is injured...possible replacement...Chael Sonnen Also Machida could be in too
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08-23-2012, 01:39 PM | #260 |
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08-23-2012, 02:13 PM | #261 |
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UFC 151 Cancelled.
Hendo has torn MCL, Jones was offered Sonnen, Jones declined. Jones Vs. Machida 2 in Toronto, Sept 22 @ UFC 152 |
08-23-2012, 02:14 PM | #262 |
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As a Judoka, I can't support the idea that Judoka can hang with BJJ practitioners on the ground. Whether you train Judo as a martial art or as a sport, you're going to be splitting your time between throwing techniques and grappling techniques, while the BJJ guys are almost entirely on the ground. The fact that in most dojos it's 90% throwing and 10% groundwork only increases this disparity.
I like the ground game and have practiced it more than most Judoka. I can routinely tap out Judo black belts who can throw me more or less at will. But I also routinely get tooled by BJJ blue belts (and I'm better than most Judo brown belts). Part of this is because the BJJ blue belt is ridiculously hard to attain (from a Judo perspective). It's basically equivalent to the Judo black belt. Given that the Gracie family pretty much set it up that way, this shouldn't be a surprise. That being said, Ronda Rousey comes from training in the USJA (of which her mother is the president). The USJA split with the USJF a few decades ago, in part because of disagreements over the overall direction of Judo. The USJF is the sporting body of US Judo, and the USJA keeps closer to the traditional style. There's also a lot of political bull****, which I won't get into here. Just take it as read that Ronda grew up doing a lot more ground work than the typical competitive Judoka. There are also entire dojos that focus on ground work, both here in the US and elsewhere. Obviously, Judo Gene LeBell was a major proponent of ground work, and of course he was a major influence on Ronda. |
08-23-2012, 02:15 PM | #263 |
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Edit: already covered above
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08-23-2012, 02:18 PM | #264 | |
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Gene rules. Hell, he choked Seagal until ponytail boy **** himself! http://filmdrunk.uproxx.com/2012/03/...pooped-himself |
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08-23-2012, 02:30 PM | #265 |
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Isn't gsp a judo black belt?
Dana is talking another fight for Wandy soon. I am sure its gotta be one of his last. I would loveeeee to see him fight Diaz as a stepping stone for him at 185. That would be a great brawl. Poor Wandy. Getting old but **** he comes to fight everytime. |
08-23-2012, 02:34 PM | #266 | |
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Damn it, blocked at work. |
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08-23-2012, 02:46 PM | #267 |
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Not only has this screwed over all the fans that bought tickets, non refundable airfare, took off work, made arrangements, etc... but think of all the fighters. Fighters that put in full camps, flew people in that helped them trains, etc. By the time I am actually fight, I spend close to 20k between corners, flights, expenses, coaches, etc... and then to have the whole show cancelled because ONE guy didn't want to fight. This ONE guy that had trained an entire camp, who was the CHAMP and at the top of his weight class, who was going to fight someone who didn't do the camp, and was fighting UP a weight class.
I have always been a big Jon Jones supporter... but I would be FURIOUS if this happenned to me and I was on the card. To call is scorched earth wouldn't do it justice. - Joe Lauzon Jones is being selfish. Bisping took a fight against Chael on 8 days notice. I like Jones, but I just some lost respect for him for not fighting a guy coming up a weight class, Jones is a stud I think he would have easily beat Chael. |
08-23-2012, 02:50 PM | #268 | |
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As for Wandy: am I the only one that gets a bit sad when watching him fight? It seems obvious to me that the game has passed him by. He's still brawling like it's 1999, and gets picked apart and dominated by more skilled opponents. |
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08-23-2012, 02:51 PM | #269 |
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Jones has become a prima donna? You don't say!
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08-23-2012, 02:54 PM | #270 |
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08-23-2012, 02:55 PM | #271 |
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You aren't the only one man. You can see it in his eye's, he isn't that same roid fueled monster we used to see in Pride. You can tell by the way he looks during walk outs. The Pride Silva isn't a guy you would want to be on the same block with if the lights were out, never mind a dark alley. The Wandy of UFC is all happy and smiling and stuff now during his walk outs. It just isn't the same.
Granted he is still winning some fights, and even recent ones. But his light switch goes on and off pretty easy now. He needs a retirement fight to end on a high note so he doesn't go too far down that road. |
08-23-2012, 02:55 PM | #272 |
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Never have liked Jones. I can add this to the list for reasons why. I hopes Machida beats him.
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08-23-2012, 02:57 PM | #273 |
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Hendo injured and out. Knee injury.
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08-23-2012, 03:00 PM | #274 |
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08-23-2012, 03:03 PM | #275 |
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